One God, Many Paths

It is totally different from the normal concept of God.
That depends on who's normal we're talking about ... the everyday religious, yes, but not entirely.

Rig Veda 10, 129 begins:
1. THEN was not non−existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.
What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?
2. Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.
That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.
That would be identified as 'God' by the Fathers of the Church, and generally by apophatic Christianity.

Notably Eriugena's Four Divisions of Nature:
1 That which is not caused and causes;
2 That which is caused and causes;
3 That which is caused and does not cause;
4 That which is not caused and does not cause.

(1 and 4 are identified with God as the Beginning and End of all things. 2 and 3 are contingent natures and cause-and-effect.)

3. There was darkness covered by darkness in the beginning,
all this (world) was undistinguishable water; that empty united (world) which was covered by a mere nothing,
was produced through the power of austerity.
4. In the beginning there was desire,
which was the first seed of mind; (Wilson translation)

3. At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined water.
That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat.
4. In the beginning desire descended on it -
that was the primal seed, born of the mind. (Sanskritdocuments.org)

This reads very much in line with Christian theological opinion ... I'm pretty sure that the other Abrahamics would agree.

+++

The material view treats such ideas as 'darkness', 'void' and so forth as inchoate energy, from which matter emerges, whereas the theist would regard energy as itself simply refined or formless matter, that is as contingent and created, as belonging to the 'existent'.
 
"He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not."

..perhaps .. and perhaps not. :)
..so not that different .. more a case of uncertainty.
That is what a hymn in RigVeda said, but it is not compulsory that we toe the Veda lines. Most hymns accept the existence of multiple Gods and Goddesses. This is Hinduism and not an Abrahamic religion.
The 'He' in RigVeda is not a God, which the earlier verse clearly denies.
 
That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.
I think RigVeda was talking about something like 'plasma' which is supposed to have existed at the time of big bang.

"Plasma is one of four fundamental states of matter (the other three being solid, liquid, and gas) characterized by the presence of a significant portion of charged particles in any combination of ions or electrons. It is the most abundant form of ordinary matter in the universe, mostly in stars (including the Sun), but also dominating the rarefied intracluster medium and intergalactic medium."

Aurora_australis_ISS.jpg
Aurora - Wikipedia ".. where plasma energy pours back into the atmosphere."
 
Last edited:
I think RigVeda was talking about something like 'plasma' which is supposed to have existed at the time of big bang.
I would count plasma as 'existent', as it's a category of 'matter'.

But hey – bigger picture is I've looked at just one chapter of one book in the Rig Veda, and there's a lot of books, and a whole lotta chapters ...
 
I would count plasma as 'existent', as it's a category of 'matter'.

But hey – bigger picture is I've looked at just one chapter of one book in the Rig Veda, and there's a lot of books, and a whole lotta chapters ...
Matter is energy. Then there are theories that all this arose from 'nothing'. It is a matter of further research.
Yeah, 4 Vedas, 10 books of RigVeda, then 14 Principal Upanishads, and then 18 Principal Puranas.
Lots of material, lots of views in Hinduism.
 
Matter is energy. Then there are theories that all this arose from 'nothing'. It is a matter of further research.
Yeah, 4 Vedas, 10 books of RigVeda, then 14 Principal Upanishads, and then 18 Principal Puranas.
Lots of material, lots of views in Hinduism.
I often ask about those times in the very beginning, A mind does not figure itself out until there is nothing inside of it. It is like a glass full of water it has to be empty before the glass can finally realizes itself. I believe this is when god first realized himself, from time to no time, and then to time again, moisture and condensation formed giving rise to mass and then eventually forming universes. the interesting thing is that everything is within god so how does he become empty to figure himself out? He figures himself out when nothing inside of him is figuring itself out and can't become something again.

Just some thoughts nothing more.

powessy
 
I often ask about those times in the very beginning, A mind does not figure itself out until there is nothing inside of it.
Human brain/mind starts working sometime in the sixth weak of pregnancy and keeps working for all its healthy life.
It is a empty glass to start with. No need for God in the process.
 
Shakta and Vaishnava (Pancaratra) LHPs. Merging with the deity is more of a Shaiva tradition.
Hindu tantra is very complicated with all kinds of views. For more info, kindly visit Tantra - Wikipedia
Hmm . . . from my studies the Kashmir Saivite is not concerned with worshiping a personal God (s)he is focused on attaining the transcendental state of Siva consciousness.

The goal-liberation-is sustained recognition (pratyabhijna) of one's true Self as nothing but Shiva. The individual is a mini Shiva, who, when he recognizes his true self, becomes one with the universal consciousness. The attainment of Shivatva may be understood as complete merger in Shiva. Given these tenets from the stance of the Western Left Hand Path, Kashmir Shaivism is a RHP as the adherents are in some way or another in union with an external deity (Shiva) and not one's unique, individual higher Self separate from the objective universe and from external influences such as deities, of which Western Left Hand Path non-theists do not believe in.


Not so in Hinduism. You are allowed to have your own views. That is how the diversity came about.
Hinduism is not "contained" in just Vedas or BhagawadGita. There is a lot beyond that.
Well, that sounds like apologetics to me . . . I end up doing a lot of advocating for Islam in the sense that when atheists use Hadiths to try and make a point, I remind them that Hadiths are NOT the Quran, and a Muslim would only follow the Quran, the Hadiths are apologetics.

**side note
I am NOT Muslim nor do I believe in their faith nor do I condone it
 
Hmm . . . from my studies the Kashmir Saivite is not concerned with worshiping a personal God (s)he is focused on attaining the transcendental state of Siva consciousness.

The goal-liberation-is sustained recognition (pratyabhijna) of one's true Self as nothing but Shiva. The individual is a mini Shiva, who, when he recognizes his true self, becomes one with the universal consciousness. The attainment of Shivatva may be understood as complete merger in Shiva. Given these tenets from the stance of the Western Left Hand Path, Kashmir Shaivism is a RHP as the adherents are in some way or another in union with an external deity (Shiva) and not one's unique, individual higher Self separate from the objective universe and from external influences such as deities, of which Western Left Hand Path non-theists do not believe in.

Well, that sounds like apologetics to me . . . I end up doing a lot of advocating for Islam in the sense that when atheists use Hadiths to try and make a point, I remind them that Hadiths are NOT the Quran, and a Muslim would only follow the Quran, the Hadiths are apologetics.

**side note
I am NOT Muslim nor do I believe in their faith nor do I condone it
BTW, I am a Kashmiri and from a Shaiva family. However, my community's Shaivism is of normal kind* and not one of the various strains of Kashmir Shaiva Siddhanta.
* worship of Shiva and his family - I am a strong atheist Hindu and strong believer of non-duality.
Apart from those who follow Shaiva Siddhantas, other popular sects are Natha and Navanatha Sampradayas. Many Shaiva philosophies are non-dual.

I understand your point about Hadiths. Muslims accept or reject hadiths as and when suits them. I suppose the word 'Hadith' is from the same root as 'Hidayat' (Advice).
 
Muslims accept or reject hadiths as and when suits them..
Not quite..
There are a diversity of opinions when it comes to hadith .. which are considered authentic ..
which are considered weak etc.
Of course, the Qur'an forms the core of belief, with hadith expanding on the belief.

People are of varying education .. and belong to different schools of thought.
Bottom line: G-d guides whomsoever He wills. (sincerity being the main thing)
 
Human brain/mind starts working sometime in the sixth weak of pregnancy and keeps working for all its healthy life.
It is a empty glass to start with. No need for God in the process.
yes, and that process most likely happened in just a small amount of time, I wonder how the brain figured itself out not knowing anything about anything at all. I believe in the science behind evolution but still I have seen universes where they found time again and everything formed into themselves to become what I call meatballs. I do not believe in a god that is many things but one that is himself only we are not him and he is not us. I do not care if anyone believes in a god or not, I just find it interesting that so many people believe in something that they know nothing about and have no way of figuring out other then what others say it is, I wish everyone could see the truth, so they could make up their own mind as to what to believe.

Live well

powessy
 
It is totally different from the normal concept of God.

1. It does not create the universe and its denizens.
2. It does not demand submission or prayer.
3. It does not judge humans after death. Has no heaven or hell.
4. It does not give rules for humans to follow.
5. It does not promise ever-lasting life or re-birth.
6. It does not send a son, prophets, messengers, manifestations, mahdis to the world.
7. It does not help in any way if one is in problems.
8. It is neither loving nor cruel. It is indifferent to what is happening in the world.

This is "Brahman" of Advaita (non-dual) Hinduism that I believe in.
I think this should be enough to show how it differs from what people believe about God.
That's interesting, because that criteria aligns a lot with my own personal concept of God. :)

It seems like a distinction is being made between a personal and impersonal God, but the idea of a personal God seems a later development in human beliefs. My understanding is that in the paleolithic era, before farming or similar, humans saw themselves as simply a part of the universe, rather than the most important aspect of it - something that came later with the idea that God could serve our needs.
 
Last edited:
That's interesting, because that criteria aligns a lot with my own personal concept of God. :)

It seems like a distinction is being made between a personal and impersonal God, but the idea of a personal God seems a later development in human beliefs. My understanding is that in the paleolithic era, before farming or similar, humans saw themselves as simply a part of the universe, rather than the most important aspect of it - something that came later with the idea that God could server our needs.
Yes, at first humans considered themselves to be the part of nature. Then, shamans, prophets, messengers, manifestations, mahdis, brahmins, clerics, priests created God for their own benefit, This is a continuous process. They keep spending billions make temples, churches, mosques, trying to convert people from one faith to their own to keep the story going.
Advaita (non-dual) Hinduism is rejecting fake stories and coming back to nature.
"Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma" (All these things are Brahman), "Aham Brahmasmi" (I am Brahman), "Tat twam Asi" (You are That).
Upanishads: Mandukya (400 BCE), Brahadaranyaka (800 BCE), Chandogya (600 BCE). Dates uncertain, taken from Wikipedia.
 
Last edited:
BTW, I am a Kashmiri and from a Shaiva family. However, my community's Shaivism is of normal kind* and not one of the various strains of Kashmir Shaiva Siddhanta.
* worship of Shiva and his family - I am a strong atheist Hindu and strong believer of non-duality.
Apart from those who follow Shaiva Siddhantas, other popular sects are Natha and Navanatha Sampradayas. Many Shaiva philosophies are non-dual.

I understand your point about Hadiths. Muslims accept or reject hadiths as and when suits them. I suppose the word 'Hadith' is from the same root as 'Hidayat' (Advice).
"atheist Hindu" . . . would you explain what that is, please?
 
I have seen just one meatball. :)
Of course, how could you know what I mean if I never explained it, you have to know something about something to figure it out. Everything here in this universe will eventually become nothing here. As we go inside of ourselves to use up all the time we can, we will transcend through the dimensional timelines until there is no time remaining, "Origins". Origins will grow until it can find time again and become another universe but there is always time left over when this happens. Within this space of time left over those pieces that remain will try to become something again as they have time all the time now and did not become something again along with everything else that did. The problem is that there is nothing figuring these pieces out that can teach them how to become themselves again. As I move through the layers of these meatballs you find all the pieces of life within them and at the core even a small world can exist filled with holes as they are incomplete. If these meatballs moved into the third dimensional timeline they would feel the true weight of what they have become, this is why I call them meat balls.

powessy
 
That's interesting, because that criteria aligns a lot with my own personal concept of God. :)

It seems like a distinction is being made between a personal and impersonal God, but the idea of a personal God seems a later development in human beliefs. My understanding is that in the paleolithic era, before farming or similar, humans saw themselves as simply a part of the universe, rather than the most important aspect of it - something that came later with the idea that God could server our needs.
This reminds me of that classic book "The Impersonal Life" by Joseph Brenner (although sometimes listed as Anonymous)
 
"atheist Hindu" . . . would you explain what that is, please?
Ah, I have done that many times in the forum.
Atheist because I believe in non-duality - Advaita (a-not, dvaita-duality, of any kind whatsoever).
There is this substrate of the universe (we term it as Brahman) and that constitutes all things in the universe, living or non-living.
Therefore, according to 'Advaita', I am Brahman and so are you or even a stone is.
 
Of course, how could you know what I mean if I never explained it, you have to know something about something to figure it out. Everything here in this universe will eventually become nothing here. As we go inside of ourselves to use up all the time we can, we will transcend through the dimensional timelines until there is no time remaining, "Origins". Origins will grow until it can find time again and become another universe but there is always time left over when this happens. Within this space of time left over those pieces that remain will try to become something again as they have time all the time now and did not become something again along with everything else that did. The problem is that there is nothing figuring these pieces out that can teach them how to become themselves again. As I move through the layers of these meatballs you find all the pieces of life within them and at the core even a small world can exist filled with holes as they are incomplete. If these meatballs moved into the third dimensional timeline they would feel the true weight of what they have become, this is why I call them meat balls.
Ah, 'multi-universe' theory in science. Very quantumly. :)
Max Tegmark's four levels, Biran Green's Nine types of multiverse, Twin-world hypothesis, etc. Multiverse - Wikipedia

250px-Schroedingers_cat_film.svg.png
200px-Cosmos-animation_Friedmann-closed.gif
500px-Universe_Antiuniverse_model.png
 
Back
Top