An interesting POV: Buddhist and Christian

[Snoopy]

Snoopy, to be trained rigorously in the Buddhist arts is what I meant by real Buddhism, of which it is my assumption that it lacks in the west, but now that you`ve pointed it out I do not think I used the right terms. But you`ve gotta understand that the kind of Buddhism I am used to which is everywhere where I am from, it seems to me that it rarely exists in the west, although there are temples here and there. When you put it in words, there`s probably no such thing as a "real" buddhism, but I clearly have some sort of personal acknowledgment of what I think is buddhism. If you see a buddhist monk pour gasoline on himself and light a match in order to protest, I would view that person as a real buddhist but that is just my personal opinion.

I think the monk that you refer to was a friend of Thich Nhat Hanh. I don't see Buddhism as being any "thing" that has geographical boundaries.

Hmm.. You might be right, but I was under the impression that Buddhism is mountains of books,

Yeah, there's a lot of books.

There's a lot of cookery books too, but none of them are the food.

and considering how long he lived I always assumed that he said the most.

Well I think the Pali canon is taken to be the recorded word of the Buddha but the Mahayana sutras are more contentious as to their authorship.

I first didn`t realize your avatar pic, so I thought you were commenting from the otherside.

Where's the otherside???!!!!

Currently there are about 3 countries of which the majority religion is Buddhism right.

Back to my comment about geography. With the printed word and the internet, we're in a global village to some extent, aren't we?

I mean no disrespect but it is not like what I know it to be, in the United States or Europe. You might get 2 major brands of Japanese beer or sake at best in the United States.
You might want to check how many kinds of beers or sake we have. We also have hundreds of Japanese gin called shouchu. And thats just one country.

I just gave those two (NKT and SGI) as well known examples of evangelising Buddhist organisations as you reckoned they should "come out and start teaching things instead of keeping it to themselves".

s.

 

[Netti-Netti]

It's the segment that has made a culture out of having anonymous sex in public places that I have a problem with. Not a good example or environment for children.

Do we have any statistics at all on the extent to which children are exposed to public homosexual conduct?

As an aside, it seems sex in public places has become so pervasive in the UK that it's no longer considered a worthy focus of police attention. As of a few months ago, the police were officially told to ignore it.

Sex in public places 'should be ignored by police' - mirror.co.uk

 

[TheKhan]

I finally have to comment on this issue. FYI, just to let you know on my character, I invited myself to a house party once and was making friends while wondering why no girls would show up. One of the dude`s was nice enough to tell me that I was the odd one out after an hour, and I politely excused myself from the party, I don`t think anyone was offended.

Lets go with common sense for homosexuals and common sense for hetrosexuals. The keyword being common sense.

As we've discussed elsewhere, homophobia

Homophobia resulting in violence or insults is just a crime, period. So it should just be treated as a crime or dealt with similarly. But most(majority) people are naturally homophobic because they are hetrosexual, and most parents want their children to be hetrosexual, this is all very natural. If you`re from a homogeneous society, you don`t think about racism but may have racist traits because that is the norm. Everyone and every society, mostly, has a tendency to be self-centered, that is natural if it is not intentional.

And if its like that everywhere in the world, you can complain and try to change society, or you can shut up and just deal with it. If you want peace, I suggest that one shut up and deal with it. Say like in highschool, if you become famous for being a karate expert I heard that many people start challenging fights, you can imagine what Jesse James`s life would have been like. It`s best to be quiet in my opinion.

What is unnatural is if politicians go on day-time TV announcing that they are gay. Such statements, say if it was a similar statement for a hetro-sexual person on TV would be censored, or is required to be censored for obvious reasons. I mean lets face it politicians do not go on TV or public display announcing their sexual preferences(I like... and I like..) and that should be no different for a homosexual. So I think homosexuals should adhere to the same social standards, in college, highschools, or the public restrooms etc.. Or risk someone throwing tomatos at them.

So what we have here is the paradoxical combination of men who want save the world from homosexual boogymen who are themselves profoundly dysfunctional and predisposed

I`d say if one is going on a whim to show his affection towards homosexual boogymen, that just shows how much he loves them in a twisted way. Hate is Love. Sorry, you`ve got to be homosexual to be extremely homophobia in my view.

to create a pathological family environment that can adversely affect the emotional well being of the kids as well as the spouse.

Now this is of some concern. I think there is only one solution, to leave the violence behind.

I expect kids who turn out to be gay who grow up in such dysfunctional families often internalize the father's homophobia and develop internal conflicts that have a long term impact on the kids' functioning.

This is the reason why I am commenting on this subject that is awkard to me. As the phenomena mentioned above is a concern, but I won`t be fighting people over it.Domestic violence is one of the scariest things on earth.

There are people who are born with male body`s but know that they are female from as far back that they can remember. Lets leave those people alone, besides if their boyfriends happen to be criminal bosses or if they are good friends with bosses, you`d probably want to leave them alone.

But if you were born a guy (for guys testosterone until age 30)(for women testosterone kicks in around age 30), and you thought you were a women, one might be confused. I don`t know exactly what the guy hormone does after age 30 but I don`t think its as hyper as testosterone (you could call it more sissy from testosterone perspective).

Also if you place a 3 year old like around 5 older girls, he will be speaking words like a girl for a while until he snaps out of it. If you moved him to Texas for a couple months, he`d be speaking Texan for a while.

So if one is confused, or his hormones are unbalanced I suggest he gets help right away. But again its your choice, its not like someone has the right to force you to do anything unless it`s against the law.

Changing the subject a little(I`m a guy sorry..), I think it might be cool to go out with lesbian couples with intentions to start a family unit, or hire lesbian body guards but I`m not aware of any lesbians who would be thrilled to do that.

When we discuss these issues, I start to wonder if it has anything to do with religion. The only thing that I guess could be said is God put homosexuals on the face of earth, and that they are a tiny minority.

Ultimately it is a persons choice to be homosexual or not, unless you are born that way, but the sex education for kids, anything alike including knowledge of homosexualism shouldn`t start even before children know what sex is.

I`d rather not like to hear about sex in politics, can we move on please.

Also when I mentioned that churches should stay out of sex issues, I also meant the whole nine yards like abortion and anything else.
But this again is really about the freedom to make decisions for oneself unless you are under the age of 13, or whatever age you deem appropriate for one to make a decision for their own body. I don`t think God really comments on things like that unless it meant the end of world or something.

 

[TheKhan]

Conversion to Christianity requires eschewing idolotry

If converting to another religion requires that I stick my middle finger at my ancestry for worshipping idols which is just an assumption that Christianity, and some others are the only religion that doesn`t worship idols, I`d rather turn my back on everything.

maybe not a big deal.

But say if you were Christian and for roughly a 1000 years your ancestors were buried in the same area. Would you not hesitate for a second to not be buried in the same area because you changed religions.

To me it kind of feels like at a church where everyone in a small town is buried at the same place, but for some reasons others might be buried somewhere else.

Also there`s no such thing as a public cemetery I think in Japan, I could be wrong, it`s all privately owned by the temples and needs to be maintained. Thus if noone took care of their ancestral graves, it would become non-existent pretty fast. So generations after, noone might know their lineage. Lineage is an asset to some, it might be an illusion but hey, its my fun.

 

[citizenzen]

And I`d also like to kick some professional Buddhist ass so that they`d finally come out and start teaching things instead of keeping it to themselves.

If Buddhist are guilty of "keeping it to themselves" it's because they understand that a person won't receive teaching until they are ready to receive.

Enlightenment is not about hearing a holy word and having lightening strike. It is about spending years (usually) in intense examination, years of improving one's thoughts and conduct.

So there. I taught you. Now get busy.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Enlightenment is not about hearing a holy word and having lightening strike. It is about spending years (usually) in intense examination, years of improving one's thoughts and conduct.

Hi citizenzen,

It's hard to say since no one seems to know exactly what enlightenment is. But it could just be an accident. What we do with resultant insights is where personal discipline and hard work come in.

 

[citizenzen]

Oh, I think some people know.

We're just not telling.

Tee-hee.

 

[Dream]

If converting to another religion requires that I stick my middle finger at my ancestry for worshipping idols which is just an assumption that Christianity, and some others are the only religion that doesn`t worship idols, I`d rather turn my back on everything.

maybe not a big deal.

But say if you were Christian and for roughly a 1000 years your ancestors were buried in the same area. Would you not hesitate for a second to not be buried in the same area because you changed religions.

To me it kind of feels like at a church where everyone in a small town is buried at the same place, but for some reasons others might be buried somewhere else.

Also there`s no such thing as a public cemetery I think in Japan, I could be wrong, it`s all privately owned by the temples and needs to be maintained. Thus if noone took care of their ancestral graves, it would become non-existent pretty fast. So generations after, noone might know their lineage. Lineage is an asset to some, it might be an illusion but hey, its my fun.

Oh, Ok I get it. So you're not an idol worshipper. You just wish to 'honour your parents' including your ancestors, which is only appropriate. Perhaps more people need help in understanding how Buddha isn't an idol? I know that as a child, I thought Buddha was just a great big stone idol! That was before I understood idolatry or anything about the concept of Buddha. It turns out the idolatry is more complicated than just pictures and statues.

I see what you mean by 'marketing practices'. Since your cemetaries are owned by the various temples it is profitable for a cemetary to have as many families as possible. I would refuse to use (Without openly accusing the Christian group of marketing) their cemetary facilities and keep using your family one. I can already think of a couple of Biblical reasons (depending upon circumstances) why that is the appropriate action to take. Arguing with the cemetary would probably be counterproductive, however a few related passages follow that may be helpful in explaining to other Christians why you must use a different cemetary than them. (Of course the short answer is honoring parents). The first two references are Christian NT and the third is both Christian and ancient Jewish.

...And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." "Knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up. If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him. Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one.".....9 Only take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if any one sees you, a man of knowledge, at table in an idol'stemple, might he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?

Then Naaman said, "If not, I pray you, let there be given to your servant two mules' burden of earth; for henceforth your servant will not offer burnt offering or sacrifice to any god but the L!RD. In this matter may the L!RD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the L!RD pardon your servant in this matter." He said to him, "Go in peace."

 

[TheKhan]

Netti-Netti, for some reason my post in response to you, has not showed up. It may still be in the process of being moderated, either that or it got lost. I just wanted to point out that people should exercise common sense even when they are homosexual, or hetrosexual in general, and about hormones.

If Buddhist are guilty of "keeping it to themselves" it's because they understand that a person won't receive teaching until they are ready to receive. Now get busy.

citizenzen, I wish not to go into in-depth conflicting debate about this, but I was trying to say that for Buddhism to reach Japan, and I have the utmost respect for Buddhist institutions in Japan, in terms of organization, preservation and diversity, it must have took an enormous amount of effort, dedication from India to China, Korea to Japan. I mean the Japanese professional Buddhists and Buddhists in general owe it to the foreign Buddhist missionaries and generations of dedicated Japanese monks for introducing the full package into Japan. Again I cannot begin to imagine the kind of effort it took for Buddhism to be the way it is in Japan.

Whereas, nowadays most(majority) professional Buddhists in Japan have chosen to settle in their temples, or their practices, minding their own business, hanging out in Gion to party with geisha`s, the old saying says if you threw a stone at Gion, that stone would hit a monk. geishas are very expensive may I add.

Now that we know that land exists east of Japan, we`ve known it for centuries, and what the monks do, and the ones that are well off especially owe their entire well being to the old foreign buddhist missionaries and their forefathers, it just doesn`t justify that they settle into a system in their local community, mostly attending funerals and a couple ceremonial events.

That is not the compassion that the foreign buddhist missionaries and forefathers showed to Japan. What is in Japan now is mostly a profession, a system, at best a narcistic religious practice.

I do not think I am mostly talking about the zen monks, and monks in the US when it comes to this. In fact I have no intention of criticizing anyone who is really serious about the Buddha. But the majority monks have the finances to send the full package anywhere in the world, but mostly they choose to be like any other Japanese feeling cozy in their home town.

I`m sure this statement could cause an uproar if I was taken seriously by the authorities, but I think I`m telling it as it is.

I strongly believe that the main, and the mothership should be sent as I feel that it is the only way to pay tribute to the buddhist missionaries and forefathers of Japan.

One might be saying the same thing I think, if only some Jesuits and very motivated Christian Evangelists were the main Christian organizations in Japan. OK, the mothership could be sent.


One question though, what do you mean by get busy?
Did you mean get busy in learning? or to get busy in a form of activism?

 

[Snoopy]

Enlightenment is not about hearing a holy word and having lightening strike. It is about spending years (usually) in intense examination, years of improving one's thoughts and conduct.

I heard twenty or thirty years of grinding effort.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

It's hard to say since no one seems to know exactly what enlightenment is.

n-n, I offer you this (and it's way over my usual word count / attention span limit so I hope you're impressed, at least with the word count!)
(of course, you may get other responses from other schools and traditions...and er...individuals...!) I think this also touches on why all this chatting on a forum might be fun or an intellectual pursuit, but discursive reasoning and knowledge acquisition have little or nothing to do with...it.


“What is enlightenment? What was it that the young prince of the Shakya clan realised that caused him to be called Buddha, the awakened one?
To answer in the usual discursive, conceptual way cannot convey the truth of this experience, an experience that is not limited to some past event, does not belong to some great historical figure, but is ours to discover. Enlightenment is not a thing, not a condition, not an event, not a goal, not an accomplishment. That which is without limits cannot be defined. Yet the question is a burning one for Buddhists. Even though we may be too hip to ask it, deep down, we want to know what it is that we are practising. But in truth, we are practising enlightenment! It is always and already here! There is not a hair’s breadth of separation between what we perceive as our separate, burdensome selves and buddhanature. But until this truth has been experienced, a little voice is always asking, “Why?” “What for?” “How come?” We want an answer, we want access to someone else’s understanding, we want some reassurance that what we are doing makes sense. And a good teacher’s response is guaranteed to pull the rug out from under us, to frustrate our acquisitive seeking after the attainment of something outside.”

-Roko Sherry Chayat, abbot of the Zen Centre of Syracuse.​

s.

 

[citizenzen]

One question though, what do you mean by get busy? Did you mean get busy in learning? or to get busy in a form of activism?

Buddha didn't have any institutions to support him. He didn't have any sutras to dissect and interpret. He didn't have a teacher to encourage or guide him.

And yet he found perfect enlightenment.

He did it. We can do it. He showed it's possible. But you have to do the work.

That's what I meant by "getting busy".

 

[TheKhan]

Oh, Ok I get it. So you're not an idol worshipper.

I thought the buddha was a big statue too until I started reading about some history, and something happened. No I have never been an idol worshipper, I`ve never been part of a religious organization, I sometimes enjoy talking to organization members. When something like that happens I assume that God intended it to be that way. To me God is really everywhere, but is very silent.


Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 8:1-4,9-19
"Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." "Knowledge" puffs up, "

I always enjoy reading quotes from the Bible. But was surprised to find the word "puffs" in the quoted text as I never thought puffs was an old English word.


FYI, what seems like food offered to the idols in buddhism at the buddhist altar is actually paying tribute to ancestors as far as I know as the altar is for the ancestors in a house of buddha, its like pouring whisky on a gravestone with a cross on it without going to the grave site I think. I didn`t know until recently as religion isn`t really a big criteria in Japanese upbringing.

In a seperate Shinto alter, of which Shinto is kind of like the old testament to an extent (in the sense with Abraham to present day Japan) with some stories about monster slaying, political struggle, relationships (it just happens to be from the oldest book in Japan which I know very little), I really don`t know why we offer water and some rice. But since it`s Shinto I guess it could be paying tribute to the ancestors previous to Buddhism. But Whatever it is we do it on our free will as its not a requisite or inconvienience if we did nothing, but I do believe Shintoism is protecting me. FYI, for 2 generations now, its unlikely that you`d find a Shinto alter at a Japanese house unless its traditional.

I`ve really done almost nothing in Shinto, but its just around sometimes housed in Buddhist property, occasionally you`d find shrines for foxes(dogs?), and maybe other animals. In my style I think we are geared around water and trees mainly. And I feel strongly about putting emphasis on clean water, promoting clean water for all societies, and I think I understand wood moreso after I thought about Shintoism. In this sense the thought does count for me. Holy water in churches should be the cleanest water that can be found, if I had my say, its the thought, attitude that would make a difference in the long term aggregately I think.

I don`t know much about Druidism but I at least know one similarity with Shinto that I couldn`t find anywhere else, there could be more, but I`m not sure on the extent.

Anyways, putting food at the alter is to show appreciation, or maintaining a house for something at least around my familiarities, which I don`t think is terribly a sin.

Idol worship, in my definition is more like selling crosses for a hefty price claiming it has special powers, kissing the feet of a golden statue meaninglessly all day everyday, something along these lines. If shamanism and those that speak to spirits for payment are for real, I wouldn`t consider those kinds of practices to be idol worship that would pose any major problems, as it does seem like it exists worldwide(there could be some truth to it if it is worldwide). But it wouldn`t be my style.

 

[TheKhan]

Side fact: it took me 17 years to feel that this was a big deal.
It was right smack in my face all the time, too.

The first 5 alphabets in Japanese are "a", "i", "u", "e", "o".

As we all know the 5 vowels in English are "a", "e", "i", "o", "u".

This really got me thinking.

 

[citizenzen]

n-n, I offer you this (and it's way over my usual word count / attention span limit so I hope you're impressed, at least with the word count!)

A man after my own heart and attention span (or lack thereof).

Keep it short. Keep it pithy. And if you feel like writing a novel, keep it to yourself.

That's what I always say.

 

[Snoopy]

That's what I always say.

me too.

s.