The 4 types of Sins

[seattlegal]

Seattle, of course we are responsible and accountable for our own sins, each one of us individually. Ezekiel clearly states that we can cut ourselves from the past

It does not mean that the sins and debt of the past do not have to be restored or healed somehow

And what did John the Baptist and Jesus preach? Repentance and forgiveness. That is how the healing is accomplished.

Greater love motivates us to make reparation for the sins, beyond our own, starting in our lineage and wipe out the past resentment our ancestors may have caused in order to liberate them and their victims. They are hoping that we can help them.

Scriptural references, please.

You wrote " The belief in hereditary sin is a type of idolatry " Then Jesus was practicing idolatry when he accepted the course of the cross to take upon himself the past sins of all humanity. They were not his sins.

He accepted the role of both the goat for the sin offering and the role of the scapegoat as written in the law at Leviticus 16. The problem is, we are condemned by the Law, but it is through the grace of the Spirit that we are freed through repentance and forgiveness. The Law cannot save us from sin. (Romans chapters 6, 7 and 8.)

God desires mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hosea 6:6, Matt 9:1-13, Matt 12:1-8)

You might also want to consider this passage:

Ecclesiastes 5
1 Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil.​

Now regarding the original sin we humans keep practicing: we keep trying to blame others for our sins, and get them to carry our load, instead of confessing our sins, repenting from them, and asking forgiveness. In other words, we scapegoat. It started in the garden of Eden, when Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent. Even thousands of years later, the people scapegoated Jesus. Shame on us. The return of the scapegoat was considered to be bad luck by the Israelites, but doesn't that actually symbolize our guilty conscience calling us to repent from our sins? An active conscience is a sign of having the law written on your heart. (Romans 2:12-16)

Baptism is petitioning God for a clean conscience following our repenting from our sins, and forgiving others for their sins against us. (1 Peter 3:21)

Hereditary sins does not mean that they are our own but our help is needed to liberate our own ancestors who have already past on.

Again, scriptural references, please.

Here is an example. If you see someone repenting to a victim for what his child or parent has done, they are dealing with this issue.

In many countries we see different communities repenting and making reconciliation for the past deeds of their ancestors. A lot of healing and liberation takes place then.

Inherited sin is debt from the past. We should forgive but also asked to be forgiven.

Repentance and forgiveness is the way. It's what Jesus preached.

Even God who has been the most mistreated has grief in His heart.

Like when we scapegoated Jesus, yet still fail to understand Jesus's message?

 

[Ahanu]

Think you have it about right there Wil.

I think there is a 5th sin. Obsession with sin.

Does St. Augustine fall in that category? Ooo, I'm so bad.

 

[Ahanu]

SG said:

It's not quite as simple as that. Ezekiel 18 explains it quite clearly. The son does not inherit the sins of his father, nor does a son get a free pass because his father was righteous. The "hereditary sin" is the perpetuation of the belief in hereditary sin. The belief in hereditary sin is a type of idolatry, that God warns the nation of Israel against, that makes each person who believes in it and perpetuates it worthy of death.
​

So mankind does not inherit the sin of Adam? I know I talked about this one time, and Salty said we inherit the decision to sin, not sin itself, but people have read it both ways in history. For example, St. Augustine believed in infant baptism, so if the infant died before being baptized, then that baby is crawling on the floors of hell. It is quite clear the baby inherited sin from Adam. Many of the reformers believed this. Authority? It is how you read it. This is the origin of sin written by the apostle Paul:

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 5: 12-20).

 

[seattlegal]

SG said:

It's not quite as simple as that. Ezekiel 18 explains it quite clearly. The son does not inherit the sins of his father, nor does a son get a free pass because his father was righteous. The "hereditary sin" is the perpetuation of the belief in hereditary sin. The belief in hereditary sin is a type of idolatry, that God warns the nation of Israel against, that makes each person who believes in it and perpetuates it worthy of death.
​

So mankind does not inherit the sin of Adam? I know I talked about this one time, and Salty said we inherit the decision to sin, not sin itself, but people have read it both ways in history.

It's ignorance that we are born with, as well as selfish tendencies that lead towards sin. (Jesus prayed, "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.") As we become less ignorant, we can continue to follow the selfish impulses and make the decision to continue sinning, or we can make the decision to ask for God's help in order to quit sinning.

For example, St. Augustine believed in infant baptism, so if the infant died before being baptized, then that baby is crawling on the floors of hell. It is quite clear the baby inherited sin from Adam. Many of the reformers believed this. Authority? It is how you read it.

Regarding unbaptized infants who die being condemned to hell: I'm more in the camp of Jesus when he prayed, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

This is the origin of sin written by the apostle Paul:

Yep, we're all sinners. The Law highlights the fact that we are all sinners. Adam broke the first law, which highlights his being a sinner. The Law condemns us all as sinners.
Notice this portion of my previous post:

Now regarding the original sin we humans keep practicing: we keep trying to blame others for our sins, and get them to carry our load, instead of confessing our sins, repenting from them, and asking forgiveness. In other words, we scapegoat. It started in the garden of Eden, when Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent. Even thousands of years later, the people scapegoated Jesus. Shame on us. The return of the scapegoat was considered to be bad luck by the Israelites, but doesn't that actually symbolize our guilty conscience calling us to repent from our sins? An active conscience is a sign of having the law written on your heart. (Romans 2:12-16)

Adam looked to pass the blame, rather than asking for forgiveness.


However, grace is available through the Spirit, which calls for the repentance and forgiveness of sins. This is what Jesus taught.

Do you want to live under the law, and be condemned by the Law, or do you want to live under grace, and repent from sins and forgive others for their sins against you?

 

[soleil10]

Soleil, her argument is extremely strong, coming from a greater authority than the NT.

What argument ? I do not see an argument. Ezekiel is saying that we do not have to be victims of the sins of our fathers and we will not be judged by the sins of our fathers.

I think it is up to you to explain why Jesus could accept such sins.

Dream, Jesus as the Messiah, took back from Satan the original position of son of God that Adam had lost. He defeated satan spiritually (putting him back in his place if you will)

Upon his victory, Jesus is in the position to come before God as our lawyer (figuratively) and tell God: "I will take responsibility and pay the price for them" please forgive them.
When Jesus says: "Go and sin no more". He is giving us another chance.

 

[shawn]

What argument ? I do not see an argument. Ezekiel is saying that we do not have to be victims of the sins of our fathers and we will not be judged by the sins of our fathers.


Dream, Jesus as the Messiah, took back from Satan the original position of son of God that Adam had lost. He defeated satan spiritually (putting him back in his place if you will)

Upon his victory, Jesus is in the position to come before God as our lawyer (figuratively) and tell God: "I will take responsibility and pay the price for them" please forgive them.
When Jesus says: "Go and sin no more". He is giving us another chance.

In your acceptance of the immaculate myth-conception you have become blinded by the Son and so refuse to see any other point of view.
But that's OK. I don't hold it against you.

 

[soleil10]

Greater love motivates us to make reparation for the sins, beyond our own, starting in our lineage and wipe out the past resentment our ancestors may have caused in order to liberate them and their victims. They are hoping that we can help them. Greater love motivates us to make reparation for the sins, beyond our own, starting in our lineage and wipe out the past resentment our ancestors may have caused in order to liberate them and their victims. They are hoping that we can help them.
Scriptural references, please.
Hereditary sins does not mean that they are our own but our help is needed to liberate our own ancestors who have already past on.
Again, scriptural references, please

Seattle, each person is created to grow and become perfect as Jesus clearly said. Due to the human fall, people are passing on to the spirit world without achieving it.
Once we do not have our physical body, we can still grow from the spiritual world by cooperating with people on earth.
Here is an example in the scriptures that explain it Hebrews 11:39-41
"and all these,(people in spirit realm) though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us, they should not be made perfect."

We can help people that died (physically before us).

Of course when the Messiah is here walking on the earth, it is the best moment to cooperate with him.
When Jesus died on the cross it is said that many who had cooperated with him rose from their tombs (spiritually).
They received the benefit of the providential age

 

[Dream]

Soleil, you anyone can be totally convinced that they are right; yet still can be wrong. God will allow it, no matter how sincere they are. God has frequently allowed people to believe in lies, and to God you and I are no better than anyone else. We believe whatever we are told. Just as children can be born into starvation, people just like you and me can be born into lies. Yes, it happens all of the time; and to begin you must realize you don't even know where you stand.

You are a human, without direction, a ship on the sea. Look directly at the argument the text makes for itself, to see if it can be applied. Read both the stars and your charts. There is no safe haven or guarantee that you have found 'the truth', since you are only a creature. It matters when the text of Ezekiel 18:20 says "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father,..." It is an argument, because it appears to disagree with what you said or what someone said to you about inherited sin. You are aiming for truth, so you must deal with the arguments.

 

[seattlegal]

Seattle, each person is created to grow and become perfect as Jesus clearly said. Due to the human fall, people are passing on to the spirit world without achieving it.
Once we do not have our physical body, we can still grow from the spiritual world by cooperating with people on earth.

I see nothing in the following passage that you cite to support this assertion.

Here is an example in the scriptures that explain it Hebrews 11:39-41
"and all these,(people in spirit realm) though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us, they should not be made perfect."

Methinks what is being referred to in that passage can be found earlier in that chapter:

Hebrews 11:13-16
13 These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, (L) greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth. (M) 14 Now those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been remembering that land they came from, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But they now aspire to a better land—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. (N)​

This is all about their faith and hope.

We can help people that died (physically before us).

Scriptural references, please. There is a commandment to Israel not to talk with the dead. (Deut 18:9-13)

 

[soleil10]

In your acceptance of the immaculate myth-conception

What do you mean ?

You have become blinded by the Son and so refuse to see any other point of view.But that's OK. I don't hold it against you.

I have no idea how what you are saying as any relation to what is being discussed

 

[soleil10]

I see nothing in the following passage that you cite to support this assertion.
Hebrews 11:39-41 says, and all these saints (of the old testament age), though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised (admission to the kingdom of heaven), sinc God had foreseen something better (the kingdom of heaven) for us (person on earth), that apart from us they (spirit persons) should not be made perfect.

Scriptural references, please. There is a commandment to Israel not to talk with the dead. (Deut 18:9-13)

This scritpure is talking about withcraft. That was quite a cheap shot

SG,this back and force discussion had become aimless.

I believe that there is a relation between me and my ancestors no only physically but also spiritually. I am responsible for myself of course. I also know that in the same way what I do good or bad will affect my spouse and children. I also know that it affect my lineage, past and future

We are not islands.

The whole bible is about restoring mistakes that were made by people
before us.

 

[soleil10]

It matters when the text of Ezekiel 18:20 says "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father,..." It is an argument, because it appears to disagree with what you said or what someone said to you about inherited sin. You are aiming for truth, so you must deal with the arguments.

OK, if we look at this verse just by itself (out of context) and read it over and over we can say yes in a way and we can say no in another way.

Yes because everyone is responsible for their own iniquity, no because we are connected by blood to this person that we care for and the consequences of their inquities to others who also know we are his or her child.

Our father actions affect us.

 

[Dream]

OK, if we look at this verse just by itself (out of context) and read it over and over we can say yes in a way and we can say no in another way.

Yes because everyone is responsible for their own iniquity, no because we are connected by blood to this person that we care for and the consequences of their inquities to others who also know we are his or her child.

Our father actions affect us.

The above is something that I have zero context for. You are telling me your opinion, but what I need is much more than opinion. You have one of many interesting ideas, but for conversation I need a fellow. You believe that truth has been dropped into your lap, which places you above me. You want to pour out truth that you 'Already have'. Do we really have so little in common?

 

[shawn]

Originally Posted by shawn
In your acceptance of the immaculate myth-conception

What do you mean ?

Originally Posted by shawn
You have become blinded by the Son and so refuse to see any other point of view.But that's OK. I don't hold it against you.

I have no idea how what you are saying as any relation to what is being discussed

1) what I mean has to do with a little play on words misconception=myth-conception, immaculate conception (whole virgin birth thing ) =immaculate myth-conception.
2) If one looks at the sun one becomes sun-blind and can see nothing but a bright spot, the same thing seems to happen to people who see just Jesus (the Son) (another pun).
You indeed have your Jesus goggles on and see everything through the Jesus is everything paradigm.
The thing is this causes you to believe in the whole original sin doctrine as without original sin there is no need for a sacrifice to clear that off the slate now is there?

I was just being a smart-ass and making a cheeky couple of puns (but with good intent).
I used to buy into a very similar theology myself.
I am not making fun of you.
I just don't have any respect for that idea of original sin and see in it a devilish bit of propaganda designed to keep people in ignorance.

 

[soleil10]

1) what I mean has to do with a little play on words misconception=myth-conception, immaculate conception (whole virgin birth thing ) =immaculate myth-conception.

Just so you know. I believe Jesus had an earthly father

2) If one looks at the sun one becomes sun-blind and can see nothing but a bright spot, the same thing seems to happen to people who see just Jesus (the Son) (another pun).You indeed have your Jesus goggles on and see everything through the Jesus is everything paradigm.

Yes, it is good to take a step back and be open. I do not know what you mean by I see everything through Jesus but that is OK

The thing is this causes you to believe in the whole original sin doctrine as without original sin there is no need for a sacrifice to clear that off the slate now is there?

OK, wihout a clear understanding of what cause and what is the original sin, it does not make any sense. No it was not eating the apple of a tree

I was just being a smart-ass and making a cheeky couple of puns (but with good intent).
I used to buy into a very similar theology myself.
I am not making fun of you.
I just don't have any respect for that idea of original sin and see in it a devilish bit of propaganda designed to keep people in ignorance.

OK, I understand where you are coming from. By the way, using the word devilish in your sentance is a reference to the original sin. Do you believe in the existence of the devil ?

 

[soleil10]

The above is something that I have zero context for. You are telling me your opinion, but what I need is much more than opinion. You have one of many interesting ideas, but for conversation I need a fellow. You believe that truth has been dropped into your lap, which places you above me. You want to pour out truth that you 'Already have'. Do we really have so little in common?

Dream, debating religious concepts can be intense because they became part of our belief system. Without being face to face, it can come out this way in a writing medium like this.
I will try to be more careful.

 

[seattlegal]

We can help people that died (physically before us).

Scriptural references, please. There is a commandment to Israel not to talk with the dead. (Deut 18:9-13)

This scritpure is talking about withcraft. That was quite a cheap shot

Was it a cheap shot because this particular commandment was limited only to the Israelites, whom you wish to use to support your assertion of the importance of fleshly lineage, or is it a cheap shot because Deut 18 calls "inquiring of the dead" something detestable to the LORD?

9 "When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not imitate the detestable customs of those nations. 10 No one among you is to make his son or daughter pass through the fire, (C) [e] practice divination, tell fortunes, interpret omens, practice sorcery, 11 cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead. (D) 12 Everyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and the LORD your God is driving out the nations before you because of these detestable things. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 Though these nations you are about to drive out listen to fortune-tellers and diviners, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do this.​

SG,this back and force discussion had become aimless.

Dialog? On a discussion forum? Sacrilege!

If your aim is to make proclamations and not back them up, but not want to get called out on the carpet for them, perhaps a blog, rather than a discussion forum, would better suit your aim. (You don't have to put up with pesky dialog challenging your proclamations, that way.)

I believe that there is a relation between me and my ancestors no only physically but also spiritually. I am responsible for myself of course. I also know that in the same way what I do good or bad will affect my spouse and children. I also know that it affect my lineage, past and future

How do you know that your behavior today affects your past lineage?
Is this magical thinking on your part?

We are not islands.

No, we are individuals.

The whole bible is about restoring mistakes that were made by people before us.

Gee. I thought it was about changing oneself, rather than changing others.

 

[shawn]

OK, I understand where you are coming from. By the way, using the word devilish in your sentence is a reference to the original sin. Do you believe in the existence of the devil ?

I was using it in a different sense....perhaps devious would be more appropriate.
From what I have read in your posts (and I have read through more than one or 2) I can say emphatically that we have a huge difference of opinion when it comes to a topic like the "devil".
So no, I don't see things the way you do.
It really doesn't matter in any case, and No I am not going to derail the thread and get into it.

 

[wil]

S elf
I nflicted
N onsense

In our sermon today our preacher discussed that the original sin was Adam 'thinking' he was seperate from G!d. and that no such seperation has ever existed as far as G!d is concerned...that is our thinking...

 

[Dream]

Dream, debating religious concepts can be intense because they became part of our belief system. Without being face to face, it can come out this way in a writing medium like this.
I will try to be more careful.

Ok. Sometimes it does, and then its just a chess game instead of an exchange. Hopefully there are genuinely interested people willing to converse, but usually you have to demonstrate that you are open to it before they will show their faces.