The Reason for Hell

[wil]

For me, God created hell because of those who will not believe Him. And of course, Satan does things that is not good in the sight of God. In addition to that, this hells pertains to people who doesn't care about God.

Awfully insecure passive aggressive sort, eh?

Seems an entity in that position should be able to rise above such pettiness and show some compassion.

 

[radarmark]

Wil, even more so for G!D to be good, Sh! would rise above such pettiness and show infonate compassion.

 

[wil]

Yes, hence my belief as G!d as principle rather than any 'doing' entity, just a principle that is being...

like gravity, except the ToE that scientists are looking for, the overreaching principle that affects all...guides all, is all.....but isn't reactive or proactive, or caring or compassionate, just is.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Originally Posted by Ahanu
Wil, what is your view of life after death?

Yea!

Originally Posted by wil
I have no reason to believe in. folks have contemplated for millenia without a conclusion. Therefore....there is no reason for me to be troubled with it,

versus

Nay!

Originally Posted by wil
it is worthy for me to live this life as if it is preparation for the next one....as my life and those around me will benefit.

How do you know who your real father is? Ask your real Mother and she'll tell you!

No such luck?

This is how to become enlightened and successful.
By franchising profits made by standing on the shoulders of past generations.

This is also the market place to profit from during one's short stay in life.

There is a status Quo of existing . . . there is no escape . . . there just is location location location . . . birth after birth.

Hell ONLY exists if there is an Absolute Goal ---that is directly 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

Hell is the constitution of the rules of Maya-prakriti ---thus, Hell is opposite of Absolute Bliss.

 

[iBrian]

So did God create Hell for Satan and his angels?

So far as I understand it, "Hell" is translated for "Gahenna" which is an implicit reference to the burning rubbish dumps outside of the city of Jerusalem.

In which case, the constant references to being condemned to "hell" are about being condemned to a godless death, without rites, without respect.

I really don't see how hell has come to be associated with a real-live meta-physical place. It's like looking for a camel that will actually fit through the eye of a needle - completely misunderstanding the context.

 

[IowaGuy]

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
Matthew 25:41

So did God create Hell for Satan and his angels?

Why do most Christians get their ideas of creation from the OT (Genesis) but their ideas of a god-less afterlife (hell) from the NT? It seems to me that much more emphasis is placed on NT views of the afterlife, yet those same Christians will quote me verse for verse in Genesis of how the universe was created...

How was the universe created? Old Testament emphasis.
What happens after we die? New Testament emphasis.

Why does the NT view of the afterlife outweigh the OT view?

 

[Etu Malku]

Again, I'll say that the Abrahamic and some other Belief systems twisted the concept of Hell into a tool for intimidation, fear, and oppression.

Many earlier and some of today's Belief systems never approached the Underworld from this Dante-esque angle. The Underworld was a place of Initiation and Occult, where you defeated your demons and monsters.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Again, I'll say that the Abrahamic and some other Belief systems twisted the concept of Hell into a tool for intimidation, fear, and oppression.

i agree and its being going on for centuries so its very successful

Many earlier and some of today's Belief systems never approached the Underworld from this Dante-esque angle. The Underworld was a place of Initiation and Occult, where you defeated your demons and monsters.

 

[Thomas]

Nah isn't Thomas that would say hell is a construct of the mind.....but I will...

If hell is a construct ... then so is everything else.

We put ourcellves in heaven or hell based on our perceptions and actions..

You mean there is no reality outside of what goes on in your head?

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi EM —

Again, I'll say that the Abrahamic and some other Belief systems twisted the concept of Hell into a tool for intimidation, fear, and oppression.

Well certain people did/do ... but not the traditions as such.

Many earlier and some of today's Belief systems never approached the Underworld from this Dante-esque angle.

Ah, don't confuse the two.

The Underworld was a place of Initiation and Occult, where you defeated your demons and monsters.

Yes, I think that is largely as figurative as Dante's visions were.

I'd say 'the underworld' was replaced by 'the desert' in the NT, and as many commentators have noticed, one's desert can be ... the desert (Desert communities), some inhospitable headland (Celtic communities), the inner city ...

I think the real forge of the spirit is in this life, in the here-and-now — that place where the spirit has been occluded. Many would like it to be a place of dragons and monsters, of tests and trials, but only because that makes everything so-o-o-o easy!

There's a great story from the Desert Fathers.
Old Nick sends two apprentice devils to temp a venerable old hermit. For days and nights they tempt him with visions of food, wine, luxury, women, this, that and the other ... after week, they report back to the boss with their tails between their legs. "You idiots," he says, "you'll never succeed against him with simple stuff like that. watch and learn ... "

Old Nick assumes the guise of a traveller, and turns up, tired and thirsty, hungry and footsore. The hermit takes him in, feeds him, cares for him, dresses his wounds. Old Nick is the perfect guest. Absolutely no trouble. The hermit hardly knows he's there. On the third day, he's getting ready to leave. "Oh, before I go," he says, as if an afterthought, "one thing I forgot to mention. I heard your brother was made bishop of Alexandria."

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Ahanu]

Why do most Christians get their ideas of creation from the OT (Genesis) but their ideas of a god-less afterlife (hell) from the NT? It seems to me that much more emphasis is placed on NT views of the afterlife, yet those same Christians will quote me verse for verse in Genesis of how the universe was created...

How was the universe created? Old Testament emphasis.
What happens after we die? New Testament emphasis.

Why does the NT view of the afterlife outweigh the OT view?

Since the New Testament does not contain a creation story, most Christians simply adopt the creation story from the Old Testament.

Those are good questions to ask biblicists, by the way. This is how I think they would answer them.

Maybe the New Testament view of the afterlife outweighs the Old Testament view because most Christians believe the New Testament writers have a more complete version of the truth. The Old Testament writers couldn't comprehend the truth of the afterlife before the revelation of Christ.

Christ descended into Hell for three days (". . . Jesus Christ . . . died, and was buried, He descended into Hell"), and since the Bible says Hell is inside the Earth, then Hell must be a real place.

"Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here" (Matthew 12.38-41).

"But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
'When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.'

(What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)" (Ephesians 4.7-10).

"For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit" (1 Peter 4.6).

 

[Ahanu]

Thomas, how would you respond to Albert Mohler's blog post in 2009 about Catholicism and Hell?

With thoughts focused on the hereafter, Pope John Paul II expounded on heaven, hell and purgatory in his recent weekly audiences. The pope’s messages reached the headlines of major newspapers as he denied heaven and hell were physical places and seemed to reverse nearly 2,000 years of Christian teaching.

Heaven, said John Paul, is “a living and personal relationship of union with the Holy Trinity.” So far, so good. But in denying the spatial reality of heaven, the pope neglected the New Testament teaching that we will have resurrected bodies, which will require a spatial dimension.

The same issue arises in his rejection of the spatial dimension of hell. “More than a physical place,” the pope declared, “hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God.” Nevertheless, the Bible speaks of hell as a very real place of torment and punishment, of unquenched fire and unspeakable anguish.

The pope’s denial of the traditional Christian understanding of hell is one more step in a progressive rejection of the very real and very horrible picture of hell revealed in the Bible. The temptation to “air-condition hell,” as one Roman Catholic magazine put it, is constant in a secular world that rejects hell as outdated and promises some kind of vague harmonic convergence in the afterlife.

In popular culture, hell has gone the way of the hula hoop. It simply doesn’t fit the modern secular mind. As British novelist David Lodge once remarked, “At some point in the 1960s, hell disappeared. No one could say for certain when this happened. First it was there, then it wasn’t. Different people became aware of the disappearance of hell at different times.”

Though Americans poke fun at “hellfire and brimstone” sermons, you are not likely to hear one in most pulpits, where hell has been conveniently domesticated for popular consumption. In liberal Protestantism, the traditional concept of hell is simply denied and “demythologized.” Among some evangelicals, the preferred practice is simply to preach the promise of heaven and avoid hell at all cost.

Polls consistently reveal most Americans believe in heaven — and believe they are going there. Far fewer believe in hell, and almost no one believes he or she is headed there. Modern Americans are quite certain their democratic deity wouldn’t do anything so rash as to consign their neighbors to eternal punishment, much less themselves.

The pope’s most serious revision of the biblical understanding of hell comes at the same issue. “Hell is not a punishment imposed externally by God, but the condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life,” he said. “So eternal damnation is not God’s work but is actually our own doing.”
John Paul’s statements are hardly revolutionary in the context of modern theology, but his decision to make such a public revision of the traditional teaching is highly significant. Just a few days prior to his statement a prominent Jesuit theological journal published the same argument. Clearly, a message has been sent.

We should note that Jesus had more to say about hell than about heaven, and he spoke of hell as a place of punishment where the wicked are “cast,” and where the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44,47). He also warned of the judgment coming when he would separate “the sheep from the goats.” To those who bear his judgment, he will pronounce this judgment: “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41).

Evidently, hell is indeed a punishment imposed by God, and the dire warnings in Scripture to respond to Christ in faith — while there is time — make sense only if hell is a very real place of very real torment.

As several modern commentators have noted, hell would be horrible enough if only for the absolute absence of God. But the Bible does not leave the matter there, nor should we. Our attempts to evade the biblical doctrine of hell weaken our understanding of the Gospel and confuse a world desperate for a word of biblical reality.

We are rightly warned to fear hell and to flee the wrath to come. Good advice comes from John Chrysostom, one of the greatest preachers of the early church: “Let us think often of hell, lest we soon fall into it.”

AlbertMohler.com – Should we lose the fear of Hell? The Pope redefines the doctrine

 

[desert-rat]

On Jesus , he wrote nothing him self ever thing in the Bible was written many years after his death . He may of had an understanding of the astral planes , and how they worked . He may of went to the lower astral planes where a true hell is . When Moses came down from a top the mountain he saw the people making a golden calf , he said to him self these people arent ready for what I have for them , he came back with list of what thou shalt not do . desert rat

 

[Etu Malku]

On Jesus , he wrote nothing him self ever thing in the Bible was written many years after his death . He may of had an understanding of the astral planes , and how they worked . He may of went to the lower astral planes where a true hell is . When Moses came down from a top the mountain he saw the people making a golden calf , he said to him self these people arent ready for what I have for them , he came back with list of what thou shalt not do . desert rat

Me thinks it's more like a metaphor for the division between polytheistic and monotheistic thinking.

Neither Jesus or Moses have any evidence of their writings, both could very well be mythological characters in a huge monotheistic play written by a bunch of authors and edited by Constantine.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Ahanu —

Thomas, how would you respond to Albert Mohler's blog post in 2009 about Catholicism and Hell?

Well quite simply he's wrong. The Catholic Church has never taught that heaven and hell were physical places, and Mohler makes no reference to where they are supposedly defined as such. It's not in the 1993 Catechism of the Catholic Church, and not in the old Penny Catechism before that ... so I don't know ehere he thinks heaven and hell are defined as physical locations.

Heaven and hell have certainly been spoken of in physical terms, but only analogously. That's always been understood.

... But in denying the spatial reality of heaven, the pope neglected the New Testament teaching that we will have resurrected bodies, which will require a spatial dimension.

No, he just didn't confuse or compound the two, as Mohler does. Heaven does not 'happen' at the Resurrection. It, like hell, is outside time and space. The General Resurrection, which is a corporeal resurrection (according to St Paul), will have its physical dimension, but that physicality will be an incorruptible corporeality. That is because the spiritual will be physical, and the physical will be spiritual. All will be all-in-all. The Spirit does not, nor will it ever, require spatial dimension.

Heaven is not quantitative — it does not have physical dimension — it's qualitative. Anyway, how can the angels live in heaven if heaven is a physical place? Angels aren't physical beings.

The same issue arises in his rejection of the spatial dimension of hell. “More than a physical place,” the pope declared, “hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God.” Nevertheless, the Bible speaks of hell as a very real place of torment and punishment, of unquenched fire and unspeakable anguish.

Does it? Really? "very real"? So when Christ says 'Gehenna', He really, really, actually means the valley outside of Jerusalem? Or is that an analogy?

And is Mohler saying that a spatial dimension is more important or more real than the separation from God? Because the logic says the former is as it is because of the latter. The latter determines the former, the principle of separation comes before the place of the separated.

The pope’s most serious revision of the biblical understanding of hell comes at the same issue. “Hell is not a punishment imposed externally by God, but the condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life,” he said. “So eternal damnation is not God’s work but is actually our own doing.”

Yep. Scripture says so. See Matthew 23. God wills that not one soul is lost ... but we have the freedom to lose ourselves.

The language used is figurative, as is the idea of being 'cast out', 'depart from me' and 'eternal fire', which are analogous terms to signify a condition about which, really, we have only a limited comprehension.

... and the dire warnings in Scripture to respond to Christ in faith — while there is time — make sense only if hell is a very real place of very real torment.

Ah, now let's be careful here. I agree that there is a tendency to render hell as an intellectual construct. (Based on what, one might ask?) The next inevitable step is to 'realise' it's an illusion. But essential reality of hell is separation from God, it is the privation of the good, brought to mind by the image of everything bad. As discussed elsewhere, the medieval mindset really went to town on this. But in the same way that a mad dog slavering in front of you is more emotive, more concrete than the idea of a mad dog slavering in front of you ... the image of the painful presence of eternal suffering is more emotive than the image of absolutely nothing(ness).

I would say being 'cast out' of the Divine Unity and being obliged to 'depart from me', the Divine Presence, is more hellish than any subsequent condition. Hell could be a 5-star beach resort, the anguish would not be diminished one iota. That we don't all cleave to the fear of being 'cast out' is, or cleave to it absolutely, is a mark of our blind wilfulness.

That we don't all live in the fervent desire to savour the Divine Presence is even moreso.

That men needs 'fear' as a backstop shows not only that we are fallen, but that we are still falling. Fear stops the descent. Then begins the labour of recovery. That's where faith and hope come in, because they are themselves founded on love. And if one really loves, then one will see no-one left behind.

If love is the realisation of the Divine Unity, not simply as an intellectual exercise, but as the reality of union with the Divine, a complete union, body and soul, then hell, the privation of that love, the withdrawal of Grace, means being no more a part of the Cosmic Community. It means existing as if one was the only existing thing in an infinite universe.

Separation from God, in the absolute sense, and it is this sense to which Christ constantly alludes, is extinction. It is the cessation of being, because being is a continuous participation (however contingent and unconscious that participation might be) in God, the Cosmos and the World.

If God withdraws absolutely from the creature, the creature ceases to exist.

We are rightly warned to fear hell and to flee the wrath to come. Good advice comes from John Chrysostom, one of the greatest preachers of the early church: “Let us think often of hell, lest we soon fall into it.”

True. But tragically so. Would it not be a better world if it was not a question of fear and wrath, but a question of love. And not just love, but Love? The indwelling of God in the soul?

But of course, John the Golden Mouth is right. But let us think of hell the right way, not of demons and pitchforks and flames and pain, but as the absence of God. That, in this life or any other, should surely be our worst nightmare?

If God is everywhere, then heaven must be everywhere too. And by the same token, hell can only therefore be nowhere ... so how can it be a place?

God bless,

Thomas
(PS. has he read Pope Benedict on purgatory and judgement? He'd be foaming at the mouth!)

 

[wil]

Well quite simply he's wrong. The Catholic Church has never taught that heaven and hell were physical places, and Mohler makes no reference to where they are supposedly defined as such. It's not in the 1993 Catechism of the Catholic Church, and not in the old Penny Catechism before that ... so I don't know ehere he thinks heaven and hell are defined as physical locations.

Well someone should tell the nuns and kids in catholic school and kids that grow up Catholic in the states...

If you don't make it to mass every week, don't goto confession, you are going to burn in hell forever..

What the hell happened to religion in America??

 

[desert-rat]

Still on Jesus , one guy thinks he was a mush room . The founders of Christanity used the mush rooms to get high . John M Allegro - Jesus was a mushroom - YouTube John Allegro's "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" - a Gnostic Media exclusive video - YouTube desert rat

 

[Gatekeeper]

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
Matthew 25:41

So did God create Hell for Satan and his angels?

Unlike most who have contributed to this thread, I think hell is a real place. It exists on earth for many people. It is living life in misery and pain. It's not something to fear per se, but it is something to be conquered and overcome. It is our descended state of being. It is a metaphorical grave where we experience and feel emptiness, hopelessness, and despair.

Some manage to ascend from this descended state and move on to lead happy lives, but for many people hope to free themselves from the torment is nonexistent. Without hope, how can anyone grow and move on to lead happy lives?

That's where many of us come in I think. We intervene as Christ's body. We slowly lead them away from their torment through our love and compassion for them. We extend and share the grace God has bestowed on us to them. We sit and cry and feel their pain and suffering with them. We become their hope until they themselves gain hope for themselves.

The reason for hell is as follows: It exist for those who have no will to live. It exists for those who have lost hope. It exists for those who have lost faith in what life can be. It exist for those who have been denied love in life. It exist to help the rest of us realize what love is about so that we might save our brothers and sisters from their torment through our love for them.

 

[IowaGuy]

Maybe the New Testament view of the afterlife outweighs the Old Testament view because most Christians believe the New Testament writers have a more complete version of the truth. The Old Testament writers couldn't comprehend the truth of the afterlife before the revelation of Christ.

This then assumes that the OT is "inspired by God" instead of "the word of God"? Otherwise, God would have known the truth of the afterlife and instructed the authors to write it as such, no?

Do you think the NT is also "inspired by God", i.e. that quotes attributed to Jesus aren't necessarily word for word (even in the original Greek) what Jesus actually said?

If the truth of the afterlife wasn't known in OT days (all the generations pre-Christ), does that mean that they weren't subject to the "Hell" that is described in the NT? i.e. was hell "invented/created" when Jesus came to earth?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

You said,

"...you are going to burn in hell forever.."

--> I guess it doesn't really matter if Catholics think they will burn forever on the physical plane or the astral plane. Perhaps Catholics are ready to admit there is an astral plane..?