What Does The NT Say About Use Of Force?

Oh man, Thomas, that's a cop-out! Yeah, yeah, Jesus would've driven the demons out of the bandit into lemmings that happen to be passing by and all going into the sea of Galilee and drown! And the bandit becomes sane again, thanks Jesus and becomes a follower! So no need for Jesus to pick up a sword ... but that's cheating!
Well ya-boo! :p

But Wil nails it.

When I was into martial arts, there was a visit by a group of Buddhists who practiced karate. They explained they don't follow a grading system, but see three distinct stages in their development:
1: He attacks, you defend.
2: As he begins to attack, you move simultaneously to smother it.
3: The thought of attacking you passes out of his mind...

But really ... I don't know ... I'd like to think some dude menaced Our Lord, and then there was a tap on his shoulder, and he turned round to see three archangels, I mean seriously big guys, really hard-looking mofo's, with twelve legions of angels ranked up behind them :eek: "Is there a problem?" But that's me.

But seriously, if you pinned me down, I'd say I don't buy into the 'gentle Jesus meek and mild' image. I don't buy that doe-eyed image at all – looks like something inspired by a California beach-bum to me ... Lord forgive me, but it just doesn't do it for me ... so I'd say that if the bandit strode up, then Christ would meet his eye and rock his world ...

While we're on it (and I have the impression I'm skating on thin ice here, and the Holy Spirit is looking at me with that quizzical look in His eye that says 'you really going there?) my sympathy is with the disciples. I think being a follower of Christ, one of the Twelve, exercised the sphincter as much as the soul. I reckon they felt themselves on the edge of the abyss a lot of the time. They loved Him, but He frightened them ... you never knew what He was going to say or do next.

Lastly, we can draw something from John's account of the arrest in the garden:
"Judas therefore having received a band of soldiers and servants from the chief priests and the Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons."
In short, an armed mob.

"Jesus ... said to them: Whom seek ye? They answered him: Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith to them: I am he."
John uses this "I am" statement a lot in his theology, and the implication is that Our Lord's 'I am' is a reference to the self-declaration of God as given to Moses: "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14).

"As soon therefore as he had said to them: I am he; they went backward, and fell to the ground. Again therefore he asked them: Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he."
This going backward and falling to the ground draws the parallel between Christ and the manifestation of the shekinah in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Some, of course, will argue that this is John being creative. OK. But I think John is making a point. John knows his Scripture. At the Dedication of the Temple (2 Chronicles 5) "So when they (priests and ministers of the temple) all sounded together ... and with divers kind of musical instruments, and lifted up their voice on high: the sound was heard afar off, so that when they began to praise the Lord, and to say: Give glory to the Lord for he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever... "
Maybe ... just maybe ... for the astute eye, John is setting up a comparison between the priests dedicating the temple, and the mob coming to arrest Christ, coming to tear it down.

"... the house of God was filled with a cloud. Nor could the priests stand and minister by reason of the cloud. For the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God."
But then maybe John wasn't being creative. Maybe the soldiers and the mob, who had lined the streets not long before, and welcomed Christ to Jerusalem like a king, and now turned out to lynch Him, bottled it, when face to face, when eye to eye, and when Jesus said "I am", He intended it to be a clear reference to the Hebrew Scriptures, He threw it at them, and they saw it as just that ... maybe I'm over-egging it here, but one could read it as Him saying 'who dares to come looking for me?'

And Judas was there. The mob were frightened to go up to Him themselves. Judas said, "Go on, He won't hurt you." But they were not so sure. In fact they were far from sure. No way was anyone going to walk up and place a hand on Him. "No," they said to Judas, "If He's so cool, you do it."

+++

... in the last second of his life, he may think "Oh God I'm so sorry I tried to rob someone ..." not because it got him killed, but because he actually knew all along what he was doing was wrong tho he was overcome by his desperation for money. If he confesses his guilt to God even only in his head, he'll be saved ... Do you think this is a possibility?
I have no doubt.

Many regard this as somehow 'unfair'. What they mean is, they want justice, but not mercy. Really, they want revenge. Someone oughta pay. Of course, a death-bed confession counts for nothing if it doesn't come from the heart, but if it does, then everything changes, creation is made anew in the twinkling of an eye ...

Interestingly, I was going to write something about 'tough love'. So I Googled the phrase first, and found that in the US, 'tough love' has ...
... been described as child abuse, and the National Institutes of Health noted that "get tough treatments do not work and there is some evidence that they may make the problem worse".
Ooops.

But what really caught me was this:
There is evidence to suggest that what the British call tough love can be beneficial ... However, the British definition used by these researchers is more similar to the concept of "authoritative" parenting, whereas American ideas about tough love are closer to the notion of "authoritarian" parenting, which has been linked with negative outcomes in other research.
Eureka!

Wil here and I often clash over the idea of God – what he presents is utterly foreign to me, but then I think he sees God as authoritarian, whereas I see God as authoritative ... that distinction completely alters how one interprets Scripture. Wil sees God as someone who needs, indeed demands, our praise, which in his book, and mine, paints a picture of a deity with problems of social integration! ;)

I don't think God needs anything at all, least of all us ... it's we who are in need. God could be 'an absentee father', who created the world, set it off, and then left it to its own devices. There's no way we'd come close if that was the case. God would always be a philosophical abstraction.

The point I'm making is that those who insist on karma – an eye for an eye – render the cosmos mechanical, we can forgive, but apparently the cosmos can't. But I don't believe in karma. I don't believe the cosmos is hard-wired, because God is immanently present in and to it ... and God's love knows no bounds, and will not be confined by human needs for 'payback'.

There is no-one who is beyond redemption. But if we choose to refuse the outstretched hand, with all that that implies, then God will not force it upon us – that's the deal, that's tough love for real.

... hope I got what you meant right ...
You did. Nice post. Looking forward to more ...

Oh, a quick PS:
On the self-declaration in Exodus 3:14. This was something I got from a theologian when I was doing my degree.

In the verse before, "Moses said to God: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The God of your fathers hath sent me to you. If they should say to me: What is his name? what shall I say to them?" (my emphasis).

Now read the next verse, not as some high-falutin, metaphysical declaration, but as a bollocking: "God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS."
Can you see it? 'I am God, that's who I am' kinda statement?

v15: "And God said again to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob... "
In short, I am the One who called Abraham, I am ... I am ... I am the one who brought you here out of Egypt, and you ask me who I am? Well who the fuck are you?' :eek::eek::eek:

Of course, that's not what He was saying ... well He was, but I've qualified it in a rather authoritarian way, rather that the more transcendent (and less hysterical), authoritative way ...

We get used to reading the same thing over and over, and reading it the same way over and over ... and we end up in a 'can't see the wood for the trees' situation. It's useful, sometimes, to take a different tack.

But God never uses bad language. He's more creative than that! :cool:
 
A couple things... It is my understanding that many were hoping for a saviour with a sword, a messiah to slay the enemies of Israel and allow a new kingdom to come forth (sort of like those expecting US to pick a King, rather than start a democracy) folks expect the new leader to rule as old leaders did...

But me believing G!d to be authoritarian? Nah... I believe that is what the OT writers portray....directing folks to commit genocide, slaughtering the women and old men and keeping the virgins for themselves.... I don't buy that story or that G!d...

I am nontheistic toward that version of G!d. I am atheistic toward that version of G!d. My version is a G!d without those human traits of revenge and demanding... a G!d that is principle...not physical.

I do believe in the I AM....Jesus grokked the I AM... and as you say used it often differentiating from when he was speaking as Jesus... and when he was speaking as the Christ...his I AM consciousness...
 
But me believing G!d to be authoritarian? Nah... I believe that is what the OT writers portray....directing folks to commit genocide, slaughtering the women and old men and keeping the virgins for themselves.... I don't buy that story or that G!d...

But that's his point, your personal beliefs on the nature of God aside, when you read much of the Bible you see something authoritarian where as other see authoritative. I think it was a rather well spotted by Thomas, perhaps seeing where religion and culture interact. If something authoritative looks authoritarian to someone they may very well rebel against it.

Thomas, do you think we can now tie wil down and reeducate him on the message of the Bible and make him a Catholic!?
 
mayhaps you can explain the difference to those that are being slaughtered...

or those taking the orders....what? you didn't kill the women and children and old men? Go back and kill the rest...

au·thor·i·ta·tive adjective \ə-ˈthär-ə-ˌtā-tiv, ȯ-, -ˈthȯr-\
: having or showing impressive knowledge about a subject


Full Definition of AUTHORITATIVE

1
a : having or proceeding from authority : official <authoritative church doctrines>
b : clearly accurate or knowledgeable <an authoritative critique>
2: dictatorial 2
 
mayhaps you can explain the difference to those that are being slaughtered...

or those taking the orders....what? you didn't kill the women and children and old men? Go back and kill the rest...

Do you think this is what I'm talking about?
 
It has always perplexed me when Christians claim to accept parts of the Bible they approve, and reject those parts of the Bible they do not. Is the dang book the Word of God or isn't it! Cherry picking the Bible is cheating - or so it has always seemed to me.

No, it is not the word of G!d....it is the words of many men and their thoughts on G!d.
 
well the smiting, punishing, locust spreading, first born killing, river parting...authoritarian or authoritative, the stories tell of a passive aggressive off his meds...

Again you seem to be stuck, if you're willing to understand my point I'll be here.
 
But me believing G!d to be authoritarian? Nah... I believe that is what the OT writers portray...
Do you ... yes, I suppose you would.

But I do think your quite 'authoritarian' about how you choose to interpret the Book as a whole. You seem remarkably unforgiving of the authors for not possessing a post-modern ethic and sensibility in their struggles towards comprehending God.

I am nontheistic toward that version of G!d. I am atheistic toward that version of G!d. My version is a G!d without those human traits of revenge and demanding... a G!d that is principle...not physical.
Well Logos means principle – But the Logos of the Bible transcends principle as you infer it, I think. Your principle seems to me constructed from human traits.

Neither Jew nor Christian nor Moslem believes that God is physical, as you seem to think we do, and then you suggest that science will answer all the questions concerning God, as if you see God as a physical entity ... which we don't.

Read this commentary on the question. There's a lot there that endorses your view of folklore and hyperbole, and rather a lot of evidence to suggest that the events you abhor never took place.

I do believe in the I AM....Jesus grokked the I AM... and as you say used it often differentiating from when he was speaking as Jesus... and when he was speaking as the Christ...his I AM consciousness...
But without Jesus there is no Christ. Don't confuse 'Christos' and 'chrestos' as the theosophists do ...

But here's the thing – if the Bible is all myth-making and hyperbole, than the I AM belongs to that – it's a myth, a hyperbole, a construct, surely? Jesus never actually grokked anything ... ?
 
I don't know what your point is.

I know, which is so very frustration when you argue back. And I asked you what you thought my position was but keep talking about your thing. We should do this some other time.
 
Do you ... yes, I suppose you would.

But I do think your quite 'authoritarian' about how you choose to interpret the Book as a whole. You seem remarkably unforgiving of the authors for not possessing a post-modern ethic and sensibility in their struggles towards comprehending God.

not even, I take into consideration who they were, what they were going thru and their perspective...tis when we think that what was written about slavery, homosexuality, etc as applicable today out of the context of the situation and time is where we go wrong imo

Well Logos means principle – But the Logos of the Bible transcends principle as you infer it, I think. Your principle seems to me constructed from human traits.Again not close...my principle is has zero human traits...tis more like gravity... we are not punished for our sins but by them...what goes up must come down....

Neither Jew nor Christian nor Moslem believes that God is physical, as you seem to think we do, and then you suggest that science will answer all the questions concerning God, as if you see God as a physical entity ... which we don't.
if that were only so... I am in Amurika...where plenty of Jews Christians and Muslims see G!d as a male physical being...literally.
Read this commentary on the question. There's a lot there that endorses your view of folklore and hyperbole, and rather a lot of evidence to suggest that the events you abhor never took place.
LOL I don't abhor the events that didn't take place...I agree completely hyperbole, the art of story telling...tis EXACTLY what I have been saying for years... Not history but mystery...

But without Jesus there is no Christ. Don't confuse 'Christos' and 'chrestos' as the theosophists do ... without Jesus there is Buddha, Lao Tzu, Mohammed, G!d has sent more than one messenger..the world does not need Jesus, Christians do.

But here's the thing – if the Bible is all myth-making and hyperbole, than the I AM belongs to that – it's a myth, a hyperbole, a construct, surely? Jesus never actually grokked anything ... ?
there you go again...the nuclear option ALL or nothing...I've never said ALL the bible is a mixture of Parable, Hyperbole, Mythology, Poetry, Metaphor, Metaphysics, Laws and rules to control the masses and the truth is contained within... Did some things happen as they are written? Probably, did many passages get some added color and flavor, yup.
 
Holy smoke, Thomas, your mind is like a spring, once flowing, there's no stopping it! (Which I benefit from.) You really give me different perspectives, something for me to think about.

But you gotta give me some time to absorb your thoughts and contemplate them. I can start a new thread from almost each paragraph of your last post! (But I need to do my own research before that.)

And everyone else who pitched in, thanks! I wish I could reply to each one of you, but I often just don't have time. I may do that later if I can ... (Could be weeks later tho.)


As for the self-defense issue, here's my plan.

If someone breaks into my house with a gun, of course I won't just shoot him right away, unless he tries to shoot me or someone else. I may point my gun at him, but tell him to drop his gun first. And if he does, I'll make him lay flat on the floor face down and call 911.

While waiting for the police to arrive, I'll ask what he needs money for, if he was reasonable/coherent enough to have a conversation. (If he was high on something, then forget it.) If a long-haul financial struggle had led him to this (if he was one of those gang members who routinely do this, then forget it), I'll ask his address and tell him that I'd send him a check for whatever the amount I could spare at the moment. After the police investigation, if his story checks out, I will keep my word.

Would Jesus approve of my plan?
(Any suggestion on the improvement of my plan is welcome.)


On some of your comments:

Well ya-boo! :p

But Wil nails it.

When I was into martial arts, there was a visit by a group of Buddhists who practiced karate. They explained they don't follow a grading system, but see three distinct stages in their development:
1: He attacks, you defend.
2: As he begins to attack, you move simultaneously to smother it.
3: The thought of attacking you passes out of his mind...
How does one achieve #3?? If Buddhism teaches that, I'm all for it, tho I don't know anything about it!!

But really ... I don't know ... I'd like to think some dude menaced Our Lord, and then there was a tap on his shoulder, and he turned round to see three archangels, I mean seriously big guys, really hard-looking mofo's, with twelve legions of angels ranked up behind them :eek: "Is there a problem?" But that's me.
Oh I see, I didn't have to worry about my French (I wonder if French abhor this expression?), which I sometimes use for emphasis, which my wife disapproves of. Understanding that this is a faith forum and I'm talking to a deeply religious person, I thought I needed to be politer than usual. It's good to know that you can converse in street language too. But I agree with you: "God never uses bad language. He's more creative than that!" ... It's only for us lowly humans.:p

BTW, I have a perfect picture of 'archangels' that fit with what you describe here. Have you seen the TV miniseries The Bible (Did it air in the UK?)? In the scene of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, there were reeeally bad-ass angels! I actually realized how violent the OT stories were when I watched the show. (More about Sodom and Gomorrah later in my OT thread sometime, 'cuz I have a problem with the story! God wiping out the entire town, really?! It didn't happen, right?)

I liked the show overall, tho the Brad-Pitt-look-alike-Jesus was just a little too meek-and-mild for my taste (The Passion of the Christ is more to my image). But I think the actor did a decent job. I was moved to tears in some scenes. Especially the via dolorosa and the crucifixion. I also really liked the portrayal of Saul(Paul) played by Con O'Neill.

But seriously, if you pinned me down, I'd say I don't buy into the 'gentle Jesus meek and mild' image. I don't buy that doe-eyed image at all – looks like something inspired by a California beach-bum to me ... Lord forgive me, but it just doesn't do it for me ... so I'd say that if the bandit strode up, then Christ would meet his eye and rock his world ...
I know what you mean by doe-eyed image! That's not at all for me either! (inspired by a California beach-bum, Buwahahaha! Oh Lord please forgive me too.) But I think it's good for Sunday-schoolers. ;)

- then Christ would meet his eye and rock his world ...

How about this music clip. Perhaps you're thinking about something similar to what happens at 2 minutes into the video? (tho the singer does it with God's Word rather than the eye.)

for KING & COUNTRY - "The Proof Of Your Love"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-2dKOfbC9c

I recently found this Christian brothers duo and really like'm. They're rather young, but many of their lyrics come through to me loud and clear.

There's a brief monologue that starts at 2m 25s in the video and it's from the book The Message by Eugene H. Peterson.

Talking about needing a fresh wording/phrasing to avoid getting stuck in the same reading of the text, I'm considering getting this book. Have you ever taken a look at it?


... More about the rest of your comments later as soon as I can find time. Next month is a really busy month for me, so it may be a while, but will come back when I can.
 
I believe that is what the OT writers portray....directing folks to commit genocide, slaughtering the women and old men and keeping the virgins for themselves.... I don't buy that story or that G!d...
OK, then find a God you can believe in.
 
mayhaps you can explain the difference to those that are being slaughtered...
or those taking the orders....what? you didn't kill the women and children and old men? Go back and kill the rest...
OK. Then find a God you can believe in.
 
well the smiting, punishing, locust spreading, first born killing, river parting...authoritarian or authoritative, the stories tell of a passive aggressive off his meds...
OK. Then find a God you can believe in.
 
I do believe in the I AM....Jesus grokked the I AM... and as you say used it often differentiating from when he was speaking as Jesus... and when he was speaking as the Christ...his I AM consciousness...
But don't do this ... this is just revisionism, it's Disney's version of Jesus.

Oh ... that's spooky ... I've just seen your Disney comment elsewhere!

If the Bible offends you so much ... walk away ... find something you do like, but don't reinvent the Jesus of Scripture according to Wil ... that's the very thing you're railing at the Biblical scribes for doing – it's not God, it's your ideas about God ... :rolleyes:

The point is, if you don't like it, don't re-imagine it according to your own tastes, that's the path of self-delusion.

It seems to me that if you cut loose, and directed your time and attention into finding a path you can follow, you'd be over the horizon by now! :cool:
 
Lol Thomas...you are well aware I have a G!d I believe in...

And I don't run from the bible I delve into it.

My simplist of solutions is 'love'. While I believe G!d isn't something/someone to blame for floods or locusts or to be praised for bumper crops or saving some car from skidding off a cliff. (or for selecting teams to win ball games....that is the one that gets me, on both sides of war folks are praying that G!d will see they should be the one that wins....and in ball games...and even in rain...one wants to go to the beach, the other wants irrigation for the fields) Damned interesting rube goldberg of a scale!

So if I read the bible and can't replace the word G!d with the word Love... Then I take a second run at it....and look for more meaning...

I've got a G!d I believe in, and a bible I use, and enjoy discussing it's inferences here with other faiths and similar faiths....thank you. This nontheistic panentheist unitic is quite happy thank you.
 
Back
Top