Are metaphysical and moral truths discoverable?

Clobbernocky

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I'll bite first and say yes they are.

I don't do a lot of posting but I wanted to know where people stand on this.

Where there are influences there are facts about values. What values produce the best results, and create a stability in a society?

Morals can be merely performative or heartfelt convictions.

Morals have causes and effects in society. So if they do then there must be facts about them. Consistent patterns and reasonable conclusions can uncover them.

Are there non physical realities and how would we know about them?
 
Quite a lot to unpack there.

Regarding morals, I would start with social or tribal mores. Behaviours that enable the tribe, such as family values, honesty in business dealings, and of course discouraging murder and so on.

Morals would be a bit more subtle, and perhaps what happens out of view of society. Not stealing because it's the right thing to do, because it would hurt the person I stole from, and not because I might be caught and exposed by the tribe?

Just to kick off, lol?
 
I think that every person has his own internal moral code, different for each person. A monk may believe it wrong to utter even a harsh word, whereas a soldier may believe it immoral to harm a defenceless civilian or to shoot a man in the back. A habitual thief may believe it’s immoral to steal from his own mother, and so on.

It is only when a person goes against his own moral code that he feels he has done wrong, regardless of what the law of the land or social mores dictate to be correct behaviour.

And then there is the person who appears to have no personal moral code at all?
 
I think that every person has his own internal moral code, different for each person. A monk may believe it wrong to utter even a harsh word, whereas a soldier may believe it immoral to harm a defenceless civilian or to shoot a man in the back. A habitual thief may believe it’s immoral to steal from his own mother, and so on.

It is only when a person goes against his own moral code that he feels he has done wrong, regardless of what the law of the land or social mores dictate to be correct behaviour.

And then there is the person who appears to have no personal moral code at all?
But are there moral facts that can be considered knowledge. Universals that hold true regardless if anyone heeds them.

There's a guy on YouTube that says murder is wrong has no truth value. But I say that there's an actuality that is true even if no one recognizes it. One generation can thrive off the actual universals, while another generation can destroy itself by not heeding the universals such as murder is wrong, virtues are right.

Finding.moral truth could very well be like finding math, and logic that can't be refuted
 
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There's a guy on YouTube that says murder is wrong has no truth value.
Except for the good of the tribe?

But I say that there's an actuality that is true even if no one recognizes it. One generation can thrive off the actual universals, while another generation can destroy itself by not heeding the universals such as murder is wrong, virtues are right.
It opens a whole discussion about war and self defence, capital punishment -- violence that doesn't result in death, and so on?

Finding.moral truth could very well be like finding math, and logic that can't be refuted
Is there a universal individual moral value? Or does each individual -- while following the social mores to escape social retribution -- nevertheless develop his own values, which may not be the same as those of society?

(apologies for edits)
 
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There are instinctive values too. The primal instinct for self-survival gives way to the instinct for procreation, leading to fights which can damage the male and lessen his chances of survival – and then after procreation the female will protect her offspring at risk of her own survival?
 
Virtues vs. vices. Standards of good character. I can name about 100 virtues. Things that we can measure our behavior and character with.
Ah sorry, I was hoping for examples to stress test. I find it hard to imagine any simple self evident moral truth that can be applied in every single situation, personally. As always I'm open to having my mind changed :)

Not 100 though! Top 5?
 
Deservedness, honesty, courage, charity, justice
Hmm, maybe I've misunderstood what you mean by discoverable moral truths. Not arguing that these aren't worthy traits, I was expecting a bit more definition than single words.

"Deservedness" certainly needs clarifying a bit?

Maybe I'll wind my neck in a bit until I see where you're going with this 🙃
 
Well consciousness is not just aware of being aware, it's that we also have characteristics and/or qualities of being. Those characteristics have capacities for virtues or vices. So something like honesty is a real quality of being in existence as a capacity of beings.
 
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I'll bite first and say yes they are.

I don't do a lot of posting but I wanted to know where people stand on this.

Where there are influences there are facts about values. What values produce the best results, and create a stability in a society?

Morals can be merely performative or heartfelt convictions.

Morals have causes and effects in society. So if they do then there must be facts about them. Consistent patterns and reasonable conclusions can uncover them.

Are there non physical realities and how would we know about them?
I would also say yes, as I see that is the purpose of life, to discover all vitues and emulate them. There is also given levels of effect these virtues have, depending on their recognition and practice. This quote from the linked talk is worthy of meditation.

"... Briefly, good deeds become perfect and complete only after the knowledge of God has been acquired, the love of God has been manifested, and spiritual attractions and goodly motives have been attained. Otherwise, though good deeds be praiseworthy, if they do not spring from the knowledge of God, from the love of God, and from a sincere intention, they will be imperfect...."

Good Deeds and Their Spiritual Prerequisites

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, Good Deeds and Their Spiritual Prerequisites

The above talk walks the readers the reader through a logical explanation and examples, backing that statement.

Regards Tony
 
I'll bite first and say yes they are.
I agree.

Where there are influences there are facts about values. What values produce the best results, and create a stability in a society?
I think the Golden Rule is ubiquitous?

My search engine offered this:
"The primary difference between Eastern and Western versions of the Golden Rule lies in their formulation: Eastern traditions typically express it in the negative (prohibitive) form, while Western traditions, particularly Christianity, emphasize the positive (directive) form.

The Eastern version, most famously articulated by Confucius in the 5th century BCE, is known as the Silver Rule or the negative formulation: "Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself." This approach focuses on restraint, non-harm, and avoiding actions that would cause suffering. It is considered less demanding because it requires refraining from negative behavior rather than actively initiating positive behavior.

In contrast, the Western version, central to the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament (Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31), is the positive formulation: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This version commands active beneficence, requiring individuals to proactively perform good deeds and show love, even when inconvenient. It is viewed as more demanding and idealistic, setting a standard of moral perfection that mimics divine compassion.

The Eastern Focus is social harmony and restraint): In Confucianism, the rule is intrinsically linked to the concept of ren (humane-ness) and shu (reciprocity/empathy). The negative formulation is often seen as more practical for maintaining social order and harmony, as it avoids the "subjective imposition of preferences" on others. It assumes that knowing what causes harm is easier and more universal than knowing what brings specific benefit to another.

The Western Focus is active love and individual agency: The Western Christian interpretation emphasizes agape (active love) and the moral obligation to seek the welfare of others. It moves beyond simply avoiding evil to actively doing good, reflecting a theology where human action mirrors God's active love. This formulation places a higher burden on the individual to initiate kindness.

Scholars note that the negative rule is easier to satisfy and serves as a baseline for peaceful coexistence ("do no harm"), whereas the positive rule is an aspirational ideal that requires constant effort and engagement ("do good"). While the Eastern version prevents conflict by limiting harmful actions, the Western version seeks to resolve needs and build community through proactive service.

+++

I think metaphysics is a different order of engagement.
 
The Golden Rule is problematic because it assumes the other person wants to be treated in the same way that you do. Your well intentioned actions can still cause suffering.
 
I like that version better but there are still edge cases where it can backfire.
Simple answers are nice, but unrealistic vs real world.
 
I agree.


I think the Golden Rule is ubiquitous?

My search engine offered this:
"The primary difference between Eastern and Western versions of the Golden Rule lies in their formulation: Eastern traditions typically express it in the negative (prohibitive) form, while Western traditions, particularly Christianity, emphasize the positive (directive) form.

The Eastern version, most famously articulated by Confucius in the 5th century BCE, is known as the Silver Rule or the negative formulation: "Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself." This approach focuses on restraint, non-harm, and avoiding actions that would cause suffering. It is considered less demanding because it requires refraining from negative behavior rather than actively initiating positive behavior.

In contrast, the Western version, central to the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament (Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31), is the positive formulation: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This version commands active beneficence, requiring individuals to proactively perform good deeds and show love, even when inconvenient. It is viewed as more demanding and idealistic, setting a standard of moral perfection that mimics divine compassion.

The Eastern Focus is social harmony and restraint): In Confucianism, the rule is intrinsically linked to the concept of ren (humane-ness) and shu (reciprocity/empathy). The negative formulation is often seen as more practical for maintaining social order and harmony, as it avoids the "subjective imposition of preferences" on others. It assumes that knowing what causes harm is easier and more universal than knowing what brings specific benefit to another.

The Western Focus is active love and individual agency: The Western Christian interpretation emphasizes agape (active love) and the moral obligation to seek the welfare of others. It moves beyond simply avoiding evil to actively doing good, reflecting a theology where human action mirrors God's active love. This formulation places a higher burden on the individual to initiate kindness.

Scholars note that the negative rule is easier to satisfy and serves as a baseline for peaceful coexistence ("do no harm"), whereas the positive rule is an aspirational ideal that requires constant effort and engagement ("do good"). While the Eastern version prevents conflict by limiting harmful actions, the Western version seeks to resolve needs and build community through proactive service.

+++

I think metaphysics is a different order of engagement.
I think The Golden Rule is well meant to say things that are harder to express but simpler to understand by experience. The rule falls short of expressing moral truths, but merely hints at them.
 
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