Justify The Burkha Please.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

In the last couple of decades there have been large numbers of muslim immigrants into western countries and as a result, most westeners have noticed Burkha clad women for the first time. I have to say that to me and many others I have spoken to it seems to be a very blatant kind of oppression of women, made even more outragious by the apparent indoctrination of these women to believe that it is right for them to wear it.

I seek to be enlightened as to the religious justification for such harsh costume. This is not an attack on anyones values, I only try to understand what seems so totally alien to me.

 

[bilalbusy]

Justify the nudity in the western society to me please and then I will justify the burqa.

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Easy enough. There is a general acceptance in the west that the human body is nothing to be ashamed of and indeed should be enjoyed. The levels of enjoyment acceptable depend on the individual of course.

You very VERY rarely see nudity in the streets.

Ok, your turn.

 

[bilalbusy]

This is because the westerners have gone astray of their own religious beliefs. The only difference between the humans and animals is that, humans understand the difference between good and bad. When the humans start behaving as animals then there is no difference in that. I am sorry this is what is happening to the western society, which has forgotten the importance of clothing on a body. They call it a so called "liberal society". This liberal society will destroy their own families one day.

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

But who are you to decide what is good or bad? Relatively few westeners share your religious beliefs and many westeners have no religion whatsoever. This is not seen as a failing, simply a personal choice. Many would go so far as to argue that clothing is only important if one is feeling cold.

To imply (as I think you are) that anyone who enjoys the pleasures of the human body more than you think they should is acting like an animal, is a very narrow minded and even arrogant idea.

A liberal society is not a society full of nudity, it is simply a society which is tolerant of pretty much anything which does not hurt other people.

 

[bilalbusy]

if you are claimant to be a man who believes and lives in a free society then burka must not hurt you, because these ladies do it as this is their personal choice. Why are you being hurt if you cant see them nude the way you can see some others. This is their body and they have all the right on their body.

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I never said that I disagree with it, nor did I ever even give the mildest suggestion that I wanted to see them nude. What I am saying is that it seems very unfair that women wear it and men do not, and I seek justification of this.

You are absolutely correct, no one is hurting me, but it is a part of living in a liberal society to make sure that no one else is being hurt or oppressed in any way either.

 

[bilalbusy]

First of all you need to learn as to what oppression means. If someone is wearing a burka why do you think that person is being oppressed. What is the relationship of oppression with someone's way of dressing.
By the way the reason of wearing Hijab for ladies is to to secure sanctity of a woman. How many women have you ever seen sexually assaulting men in this world. It has always been men who have been physically interested in women. How many muslim women would you find unsafe by some rapist in the street. It is only those women who do not dress up decently, or who tart up are the most vulnerable.
If you really are looking for the truth then this one answer should suffice.

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

An excellent reason certainly, but I do have two further questions with this in mind.

First, could a woman not simply wear conservative clothing which allows some freedom of expression?

And second (and I must stress that this is a question and not an accusation, I realise that I am on very thin ice here) is the Burkha an option for islamic women or is it required? (hence my concerns about oppression)

 

[bilalbusy]

In all honsty Islam is a very flexible religon when it comes to Burkha(well because I know the REAL teachings of Islam..I can tell Islam is the most flexible religon generally anyway..and I have all the evidence to back it)

It just depends on the societies and the requirements of a woman that could allow her to have various styles of veil. But you must not forget that if religon becomes too loose in allowing it to be conservative..then with time the definition of conservative will not only change but also will stay a very subjective issue, and as a result people will not only leave the right practice but it will also become a mockery.I belong to a sect in Islam which is very different to the mainstream muslims and because we have a world wide leader, for us, all the concepts are very clear and we answer only with logic. By the way we believe that jesus has returned!!!!

 

[iBrian]

By the way the reason of wearing Hijab for ladies is to to secure sanctity of a woman. How many women have you ever seen sexually assaulting men in this world. It has always been men who have been physically interested in women. How many muslim women would you find unsafe by some rapist in the street. It is only those women who do not dress up decently, or who tart up are the most vulnerable.
If you really are looking for the truth then this one answer should suffice.

That's what it all comes down to - but it seems that women are being punished for the transgressions of men.

By the way, I removed some of the later posts, as it would be great to keep this thread focussed on the topic.

 

[sasa]

That's what it all comes down to - but it seems that women are being punished for the transgressions of men.

By the way, I removed some of the later posts, as it would be great to keep this thread focussed on the topic.

Why did you ban me now. I don't think I hurt anyone's feelings here. You need to be courageous enough to defend your religion when you can talk against Islam on Burka. You knew that I had answered the query over Burqa excellently, and then you put your own post in the thread and banned me from coming back into the forum. I know you would ban me again now (temperarily, as you call it).

 

[sasa]

Moderator!! why did you delete the post in which "Awating the Fifth" thanked me and said that I had helped him a great deal by answering his query on Burka. You deleted his post and put your own post instead. Very cheeky!!!

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I have to agree with sasa (bilalbusy) here, I thought that the way he and I argued our differences and eventually reached a peaceful understanding and mutual respect was a stunning example of the potential of this site, why delete the end of the conversation?

 

[sasa]

Thanks very much "Awaiting the fifth". After all I have got someone who supports justice here in this forum.
Many thanks,
Bilal

 

[Amica]

Just like you said that in the western society nudity is acceptable, so is the covering in the islamic society acceptable. While westerners may have no shame on showing their bodies to others, so do not Muslims feel shame in showing their piety.
Western attack on Musilm women is worse than the attack on Muslim men today. While, yes, there are domestic abuses going on in the islamic societies just like everywhere in the world, there are also thousands of Muslim women who enjoy being Muslim, enjoy being religious and abide by the religious laws of our faith.
Muslim women do not attack western women for being who they are, so please do not attack our own way of life.
I would rather be clean, free of deseases, with dignity and pride in who I am as a Muslim woman, rather than being sexually exploited by socieites. It is the Western culture that promotes rape of a woman, not Islam.

 

[Amica]

By the way,
Muslim men have also laws to abide by: they cannot wear shorts above the knee level, they are not to look lustfully at women, etc.
The whole point of woman trying to be in control of herself is because by the nautral law given by God Almighty women are more capable to control their sexual drives than men.
Now, someone will be out there who says that Muslim men do not know how to control themselves and that is why women are 'sexually opressed.' Just as a Muslim woman is commanded to stay clean, so is a Musilm man. He cannot have sexual intercourse unless married and with his wife, he is forbiden to rape, he is forbiden to sexually exploit women at all.
A woman in Islam is a leader of her society.
When the western women became behaving in the way they were biologically not created (like men, that is) that is when the rise of free sex started. While the ideology of western feminism started fair: social justice for political reasons and educational reasons, it brought a different outcome for women. Today they have children out of wedlock, very few people feel the need to marry and have families, because men think: "Why buy milk when I can have a cow for free?" People divorce easily.
Free sex is on the rise even more in western societies where adultery is open: now you have group sex clubs and people cheat like never before. I am not saying this is all women's fault, but they did set themselves up for sexual exploitation.

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

An excellent argument. I would like to reitterate that my questions are in no way an attack on Muslim men or women as you seem to assume.

Muslim men have also laws to abide by: they cannot wear shorts above the knee level, they are not to look lustfully at women, etc.

I was surpirised to read this, Thank you, I did not know.

Today they have children out of wedlock, very few people feel the need to marry and have families, because men think: "Why buy milk when I can have a cow for free?"

This is totally untrue and I think quite offensive. I have no intention of ever marrying, not because I am immoral or non commital, or because I think "Why buy milk when I can have a cow for free?". I will not marry because I do not belong to a religion which requires marriage.

Free sex is on the rise even more in western societies where adultery is open: now you have group sex clubs and people cheat like never before.

The people who partake in these activities do not see any wrong in them, they are simply enjoying the human body, and why not?

I am not saying this is all women's fault, but they did set themselves up for sexual exploitation.

I see no exploitation in any volume of consetual sex

 

[thipps]

Muslim men have also laws to abide by: they cannot wear shorts above the knee level, they are not to look lustfully at women, etc

I was surpirised to read this, Thank you, I did not know.

h| Awaiting_the_fifth,
If you read the Qur’an, it mentioned the ‘Hijab’ for the man before the mentioning of the ‘Hijab’ for the women. It is mentioned in Ch. No. 24 (Surah Nur), Verse No. 30:
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. [Quran, 24:30]
The next verse [24:31] says...
‘And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers,...’, and a big list of ‘Mahram’, the close relatives which she cant marry is given, and but natural, in front of the chaste women - Besides these, she should maintain the Hijab.
The criteria for Hijab in Islam, can be found in the Qur’an, and the Authentic Hadith. There are six criteria, which are as follows:
1. First is extent of covering, which is the only difference between a man and a woman. For the man, he has to be covered from the naval to the knee. For the woman, her complete body should be covered - the only part that can be seen is the face and the hands up to the wrist. If she wishes to cover them, she is most welcome. Some scholars say that these should also be covered. Otherwise the full body should be covered. This is the only criteria which differs, between the man and the woman.
2. The clothes he/she wears should not be so tight that it reveals the figure.
3. It should not be so transparent, so that you can see through.
4. He/She should not wear glamorous clothes, which attracts the opposite sex.
5. A person should not wear clothing, which resembles that of the opposite sex. e.g. - like you find men wearing earnings. It is prohibited in Islam.
6. And the last criteria is, you should not wear clothes that resemble that of an unbeliever. e.g. the standard clothing of a Christian preacher by which he is identified as a preacher.
These are the six basic criteria of Hijab in Islam. Again, i reiterate that the difference lies in the extent of application of the first one only. All the rest apply in the same manner to men and women both.
All those men out there wearing shorts which expose thier thighs are not following islamic law. All those men out there who wear tight jeans are violating islamic law. I am saying these things cause non-muslims think that the concept of 'Hijab' applies only to women and thats not correct.
Hope this clear things up for you.
And Allah knows best.

 

[iBrian]

sasa, the posts were not deleted, merely removed from the public boards so that this discussion could continue on the issue of burkhas while I considered what to do about you and your somewhat disruptive behaviour.

Please note that joining with multiple aliases is not acceptable -you currently have 5 all registered under false e-mail addresses - and neither is trying to coerce members against staff decisions. You are offered hospitality on this board, and if you cannot respect that then you should expect to move on or be moved on.