Can anyone anwser this Question?

[tectrikz]

If a man rapes a women and then kills her, then later in his life becomes a Christian and asks forgiveness for his sins and means it. Well the women on the other hand never believed in Jesus. Does the man go to heaven and the women go to hell?

 

[InLove]

If someone commits a sin against God, it is possible to be forgiven. That is what I understand from the Word of God. If someone chooses never ever to believe, then that person will not be forgiven.

You asked this question that I have just answered in faith. Now, I ask you--how do you know that someone never believes? By his or her actions? Maybe. But what happens in those last few seconds of life? Can you say for sure?

You ask others to judge--so what say ye?

InPeace,
InLove

 

[BlaznFattyz]

just asking for forgiveness on a basic human to human level may not be enough. to be forgived of sins, one must believe in jesus christ as ones personal saviour, that he died on the cross for you and rose again. then one will be forgiven, hidden in christ, and found in the book of life. if one did not believe in christ ever, then judgement day will come, and jesus will decide your fate. hopefully one will be given one last chance to repent and acknowledge god is the true and only god on judgement day. if righteousness can come by good deeds then Christ didn't need to die, but He did, so being good isn't enough.

 

[tectrikz]

If someone commits a sin against God, it is possible to be forgiven. That is what I understand from the Word of God. If someone chooses never ever to believe, then that person will not be forgiven.

You asked this question that I have just answered in faith. Now, I ask you--how do you know that someone never believes? By his or her actions? Maybe. But what happens in those last few seconds of life? Can you say for sure?

You ask others to judge--so what say ye?

InPeace,
InLove

Thanks for the reply Inpeace, I’m still confused on the question though because if the women were young lets say in her teens would God be merciful because she hadn’t lived a long life and had the same amount of chances that others had to discover God? The other thing that comes to mind is that if you ask forgiveness for your sins from God - not Jesus because you don’t believe him as being part of God - would you still go to heaven for not believing in Jesus because by asking God for forgiveness in a sense you are asking Jesus too even if you don’t believe in him being the son of God because they are part of the trinity and one in the same.


I dont know if someone believes, no one can truly know if someone believes. If there is a God he is the only one who would know for sure. That is if he can look into our hearts and minds.


By the way, I found this question well in my religious studies class. Someone asked it and no one could give an answer, even my teacher who is an Anglican priest was unsure on how to respond to it.

 

[tectrikz]

just asking for forgiveness on a basic human to human level may not be enough. to be forgived of sins, one must believe in jesus christ as ones personal saviour, that he died on the cross for you and rose again. then one will be forgiven, hidden in christ, and found in the book of life. if one did not believe in christ ever, then judgement day will come, and jesus will decide your fate. hopefully one will be given one last chance to repent and acknowledge god is the true and only god on judgement day. if righteousness can come by good deeds then Christ didn't need to die, but He did, so being good isn't enough.

OK, let’s assume that the man asks forgiveness on a deep level, one that God is convinced that he is truly sorry for his sins. So that means the man goes to heaven and the girl would end up in hell?

By the way, I'm gone for the weekend, so I will be back on sunday night to respond to anymore posts I get on this subject.

 

[Quahom1]

If a man rapes a women and then kills her, then later in his life becomes a Christian and asks forgiveness for his sins and means it. Well the women on the other hand never believed in Jesus. Does the man go to heaven and the women go to hell?

First off, I wouldn't be surprised if you were a lawyer, or perhaps a prosecuting attorney, the way you presented this question. You deliberately set it up for the sympathy of the jury to rest with the "victim"

That observation out of the way, according to Christian doctrine, he who asks for forgiveness and accepts Christ as his savior is in fact saved. That does not mean he will not deal with the consequences of his actions, just that hell bound he is not. After being saved, a man will be judged according to his works, and receive his appropriate reward (the storing of riches in heaven, while a believer on earth...). There is also the matter of faith without works to contend with. If he were such a man of true faith, and even if he were scheduled for death, he could still show works for his faith...by praying for those he harmed, for example. There is a man on death row today here in the US, that writes childrens' books, warning them not to become like him. He is a Christian now, and uses the time he has left to reach out in a positive way to the innocent. He want's them armed with knowledge and awareness of the dangers around them. He donates his proceeds to charities (quite a bit of money actually). And he refuses to appeal his death sentence. Though a Christian, he accepts a life for a life, law (OT law). But he wastes none of his remaining time. He uses it for the good of others.

The young woman on the other hand (the "victim"), according to Christian doctrine, will stand before God and will be judged on her life here. If she is of the age of ascention (that is if she is of the age of knowing right from wrong), she will be judged as an adult. If however she is not knowing right from wrong, she will not be judged, as children are not judged.

It is believed that God allows no one to be taken from this life before their time. The cruelness of her death is not the makings of God, but rather the abasement of man. However, God heals what man damages.

So, we don't know what happens, between the moment of life and the instant of death for certain people. They could live a life time within that instant, and make a choice within that same instant whether to follow Christ or not.

That is not up to us to judge. For God's time is not our time...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[wil]

It is absolutely a vailid and interesting question...and one of the ones that tears theology apart...like how a baby can die from cancer...if there is a forgiving and all powerful God...the reality makes one think God is either not forgiving or not all powerful...

In your question, I cannot answer the dogmatic literal response...I have heard it many times and it does not resonate with me.

I cannot believe that anyone needs to recognize Jesus Christ as their saviour in the eyes of God. That is like saying God is a lion tamer, and only the lions that jump, through this hoop will get fed. Whie I think my God is the same as everyone's God, that does not depict mine.

And those that swear allegiance and ask for forgiveness, do their pennance and then go on to commit more sin...only to come back next week and revesrse the cycle...I agree that God forgives them as well...but to indicate that an uncrhistened child, a person in a country who has never heard of Jesus, or one who was told about Jesus in one of the myriad of ways (various denominations) that didn't resonate with that individual...the God, would smite the child of God because the messenger did not do their job well....well that doesn't sit well with me either.

My answer, both have access, God is Love, Jesus's #1 commandment, loving neighbors and enemies does not include sending them to hell.

namaste,

 

[BlaznFattyz]

OK, let’s assume that the man asks forgiveness on a deep level, one that God is convinced that he is truly sorry for his sins. So that means the man goes to heaven and the girl would end up in hell?

By the way, I'm gone for the weekend, so I will be back on sunday night to respond to anymore posts I get on this subject.

only jesus christ is the saviour, he is the way the truth and the life, and no one comes to the father but through him. asking god alone for forgiveness or doing good deeds is not enough to be hidden in christ. the person that does not believe in jesus and the person that did not ask jesus for forgiveness will have to account for their sins and most likely they will be judged according to their outlook on life as well. a person with no love, forgiveness, or compassion towards others, might bring the exact same judgement on oneself. a person with love, compassion and forgiveness towards others that never accepted jesus as their personal saviour or even heard of him might also be judged on how they lived their life. however, no person knows the future or where the man or the girl eventually ends up but god, for only god knows the heart of man and what happens on judgement day for those not hidden in christ.

 

[lunamoth]

If a man rapes a women and then kills her, then later in his life becomes a Christian and asks forgiveness for his sins and means it. Well the women on the other hand never believed in Jesus. Does the man go to heaven and the women go to hell?

I think that it is this putting this kind of legalistic thinking above love and compassion that got the Pharisees in trouble with Jesus.

my 2 c,
lunamoth

 

[Saltmeister]

If a man rapes a women and then kills her, then later in his life becomes a Christian and asks forgiveness for his sins and means it. Well the women on the other hand never believed in Jesus. Does the man go to heaven and the women go to hell?

The man can only be a true "Christian" believer if he turns a leaf. That is, he changes and mends his ways. The old life disappears and is replaced by the new. Old desires are put to death and are replaced by healthy ones. The plant that was poisoned is now healed and restored.

So what about the past sins? Can they be cancelled? My view is that God takes responsibility for the man's wrongs. We are not only created by God, but also belong to Him. Our Creator takes responsibility. Only the one who creates us is entitled to give us a pardon and only because we are His Creation.

If some other god created us, God wouldn't have the right to cancel our sins. It wouldn't be His responsibility and it would be outside God's jurisdiction. God cannot cancel the wrongs of somebody else's creation.

He can judge and punish us, but he cannot save us from punishment unless we are His creation. The judge can't take responsibility for something he didn't create.

So what about the women who aren't Christian? I think the simple answer to the question is do they belong to God? Have they given their lives to God? Because God can't cancel the wrongs of those who don't belong to Him and aren't His Creation, God can't cancel the wrongs of the women the man raped.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1:12-13

We are no longer God's Creation because Adam ate the fruit from the Forbidden Tree. God's Creation was perfect in conduct. We are not perfect in conduct. We are not God's creaton and nor do we belong to God.

The above passage tells us why: we are not born of God. Good behaviour comes from us being born of God. In other words, because God cleanses and purifies us from inside, we no longer have these unholy desires. Sinful habits come from us choosing to resonate with the sin in human nature, which is not born of God.

Because a person isn't born of God and doesn't belong to Him, God cannot cancel his wrongs.

Of course, this may sound like the biased/corrupt judge who lets his children get away scott-free for crimes they commit. However, we are no longer talking about people who can't change. Being born of God means that you are now able to stop sinning.

It's like smoking. Today we have things like Nicabate that help people give up smoking. In criminal court cases, sentences can now also involve counselling, where a person receives counselling to help him change his behaviour, rather than being punished.

The difference between modern counselling and being born of God is that being born of God allows a person to change his behaviour.

In Isaiah it says something about a Messiah that would come. His name would be Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, Wonderful Counsellor.

So why does a person need to "believe in Christ" or "believe in the Way of Christ?" It's because anyone who follows the path of Christ is born of God. It's actually a partial birth rather than a complete birth. A person must die and be born again in God's Kingdom to be completely born again. This journey involves faith. That's why the birth is only partial.

 

[mee]

If a man rapes a women and then kills her, then later in his life becomes a Christian and asks forgiveness for his sins and means it. Well the women on the other hand never believed in Jesus. Does the man go to heaven and the women go to hell?

easy , the man has chosen to be saved , but the woman has not chosen to be saved , it means everlasting life for the man , but the woman has chosen to not recogonize the sayings of everlasting life
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.....John 3;16...............so its a choice of everlasting life or cutting-off from the life source ,her choice.

 

[iBrian]

It is an interesting overall question, not least because it focusses with extreme examples on what it means "to be saved".

What I especially liked was the earlier comment about age being an issue - if the man in the original example doesn't convert to Christianity until he's 60 years old, but the woman he kills is 20 years old, then not only has the man had three times as long to discover Jesus - but he's also prevented the woman from discovering Jesus. That I think provides an additionally interesting complicating factor to the original question.

 

[Quahom1]

It is an interesting overall question, not least because it focusses with extreme examples on what it means "to be saved".

What I especially liked was the earlier comment about age being an issue - if the man in the original example doesn't convert to Christianity until he's 60 years old, but the woman he kills is 20 years old, then not only has the man had three times as long to discover Jesus - but he's also prevented the woman from discovering Jesus. That I think provides an additionally interesting complicating factor to the original question.

Intersting indeed, however you reminded me of something I'd pondered a long time ago about those who are saved and those who are not. Prior to Jesus' walking the earth, there were several billion people who'd lived and died. What happened to those people, who never knew Jesus?

The Bible is not perfectly clear on this except to say that All will be judged based on what has been revealed to them, that God "will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity (or fairness)" (Psalm 98:9). God will not condemn a person for rejecting a Christ they never heard about. We all stand condemned for something far more basic.

The only difference between a Christian and non-Christian is the "get out of jail free" card Christians have by accepting Jesus (according to doctrine and scripture). Doesn't mean Christians won't have to do community service for their actions.

Based on this, the answer is no, she doesn't automatically go to hell. In fact, she becomes an instrument (albeit unwillingly), by which another (the killer), turns to God, who might otherwise never have.

Complicated indeed.

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

Intersting indeed, however you reminded me of something I'd pondered a long time ago about those who are saved and those who are not. Prior to Jesus' walking the earth, there were several billion people who'd lived and died. What happened to those people, who never knew Jesus?


v/r

Q

I would say that the same will happen to those of times past ,as will happen to those who die now but have not come to know Jehovah or Jesus , and that is .......... they are awaiting a resurrection if they are in Jehovahs memory because the rightous and the unrightous will be resurreced
and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous ...acts 24;15

Also, there are many "unrighteous" persons buried in Sheol (Hades), mankind’s common grave, or in "the sea," watery graves. The judgment of these along with "the righteous" resurrected on earth is described in Revelation 20:12, 13: "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds............. so these dead ones will be judged not on what they did before they died but on how they live from their resurrection

Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment John 5;28-29

 

[taijasi]

If a man rapes a women and then kills her, then later in his life becomes a Christian and asks forgiveness for his sins and means it. Well the women on the other hand never believed in Jesus. Does the man go to heaven and the women go to hell?

As for the original question ... perhaps we are responsible for our own actions (and no one else's) ... and perhaps that means we are held fully accountable for them.

If I have understood Jesus' teachings correctly, then it seems the emphasis was/should be on love and forgiveness, while welcoming and accepting one's karma as God's lesson to us on how to live with increasing wisdom.

"Forgive us our trespasses/sins as we forgive those who sin against us." To do this means to forgive one who rapes or murders you. PERIOD. Yes, this may be difficult, but not impossible.

"As ye sow, ye shall reap" or "As ye mete it out, so it shall be meted out unto you" Faith and forgiveness are important parts of this lesson, but facing the consequences of our actions is equally important. No good teacher would simply sigh and look the other way. Nor should we expect this of the Lord. Jesus didn't ask or expect to be treated any different than anyone else. Presumptuous of us to ask or expect this ... isn't it? ("Lord, please deliver me from your laws, because I'm special and I don't think they should apply to me.")

The Lord helps the one who helps himself ... or herself. Suppose this woman has faith in human goodness - in the principle of Good within every human being (or all beings). Suppose she has dedicated her entire life to loving and serving others. Suppose she goes to her grave an agnostic (open to possibilities, but with no strong beliefs in any direction, save in the innate Goodness within all people - call her Humanistic if you like). Suppose this. Know then, that she will be with God.

Suppose this woman is an average person, with likes & dislikes, misgivings and misfortunes ... and again, no particular faith or creed. Then her fate would be that same as any other after death. But again, in time she will be with God.

Now suppose this woman has been particularly wicked. Again as any other, she will meet with justice after death, but her suffering will be severe, because this will be the only way she is receptive to God's lesson of Love (the two commandments, as taught by Christ). As she learns the purpose and cause of suffering, she will very likely - hopefully - be able to relinquish her bitterness, perhaps even forgive her assailant, and as with every other human soul, she too, will be with God.

The man who raped this woman, no matter the length of his life afterward ... suppose he has been exceeding wicked until his death, and in his moments of fear and apprehension - blurts out that he accepts Christ. Go further - let us assume he earnestly feels remorse (perhaps for the first time) for his actions, that he sincerely wishes to be delivered from his sins. Are his prayers and behests unanswered? Certainly not! Is he absolved from his responsibility and his debt to that woman? Certainly not! To teach or suggest anything else would be blasphemy! So will this man still experience a fair bit of hell on crossing over?

Yes! Because how, otherwise, might he come face to face with the demons that HE has created, sustained, and repressed due to his wickedness? These are HIS responsibility, and according to Law he must face them. But the wicked causes of his personal darkess are finite, and God's law of Love and forgivess operates in a greater time frame. The man will exhaust his negative karma (paying his debts, if you prefer to see it thus), and he too, will be with God. (Sound like purgatory? Yes, Tibetan Buddhists call it the bardo. Hindus call it kamaloka. Every religion teaches it. We must be "made holy," or purified, before we may come into the Presence of G-d.)

Is there really anyone for whom this does not all seem intutively obvious? If something doesn't jibe, just come back to the Law of Love, but remember that God's Laws also include Justice - Divine Justice, and not human, or legalistic. Christ (and others) taught this as Karma - the Law of Cause and Effect ... what goes around, comes around. Only the church - a human institution - taught vicarious atonement and the remission of sins. Christ never instructed his followers in this fashion.

He would not have dared, knowing full well what nonsense it would be. He had no need, after all, of keeping the pews full on Sunday, and the "church building fund" overflowing with bounty. He sought to build a different kind of church - whose Temple cannot be built with human hands. And even after death, as in life, there is still the ongoing choice to make ready our "body" for the Divine, or to live unto ourself, in darkness and ignorance. It is the way we live (and treat others) that determines our fate, in life and afterwards. Lip service ... matters not. I believe Christ mentioned this. But he did not instill fear & apprehension into his followers. Only the church did that. Bowing down in humility is not the same as trembling in fear - at least not in today's diction.

Peace,

andrew
​

 

[pohaikawahine]

As for the original question ... perhaps we are responsible for our own actions (and no one else's) ... and perhaps that means we are held fully accountable for them.

It is the way we live (and treat others) that determines our fate, in life and afterwards. Lip service ... matters not.
Peace,

andrew


​

ah ... a voice of reason ... I am always amazed at the way judgements come out from the reading of scriptures on a literal level .... who will and who will not be "saved" .... we all have the potential to be "saved" and it has little to do with what religion you subscribe to or book you read .... it has everything to do with the way you live your life ....

from the writings of a Persian monk named Simon of Taibutheh "Through spiritual theory he will see in his mind spiritually all the visible things that are seen materially by others." I suspect that it is important to begin to understand the great books through the vision of spirit and not the material world .... then perhaps it will be easier to answer the original question ....

if we all begin to change our minds, we can begin to change our world and just maybe the raping and killing will cease .... a new question might be if one person believes in Jesus and another does not, can both be saved .... the answer might simply be "yes" ..... aloha nui, pohaikawahine

 

[BlaznFattyz]

The man who raped this woman, no matter the length of his life afterward ... suppose he has been exceeding wicked until his death, and in his moments of fear and apprehension - blurts out that he accepts Christ. Go further - let us assume he earnestly feels remorse (perhaps for the first time) for his actions, that he sincerely wishes to be delivered from his sins. Are his prayers and behests unanswered? Certainly not! Is he absolved from his responsibility and his debt to that woman? Certainly not! To teach or suggest anything else would be blasphemy! So will this man still experience a fair bit of hell on crossing over?

Yes! Because how, otherwise, might he come face to face with the demons that HE has created, sustained, and repressed due to his wickedness? These are HIS responsibility, and according to Law he must face them. But the wicked causes of his personal darkess are finite, and God's law of Love and forgivess operates in a greater time frame. The man will exhaust his negative karma (paying his debts, if you prefer to see it thus), and he too, will be with God. (Sound like purgatory? Yes, Tibetan Buddhists call it the bardo. Hindus call it kamaloka. Every religion teaches it. We must be "made holy," or purified, before we may come into the Presence of G-d.)

i would really like to see the scripture you are using regarding your points in the above post especially the part about blasphemy. i think it would be responsible and considerate to post scripture if you are going to say something that heavy.

although i already posted regarding this, i would also like to add the story of the criminal who was crucified with christ, because he believed in him at the end of his time, jesus told him that he would been in paradise with him.

 

[wil]

two thoughts...

WWJD?

those without sin may cast the first stone...

get the log out...

ie this is not our place, it really matters not what the rest of the world does or thinks..our salvation is upto us, not on the backs or necks of others...looking, acting, imagining ourselves better than others makes us less.

namaste,

wil

 

[Quahom1]

i would really like to see the scripture you are using regarding your points in the above post especially the part about blasphemy. i think it would be responsible and considerate to post scripture if you are going to say something that heavy.

although i already posted regarding this, i would also like to add the story of the criminal who was crucified with christ, because he believed in him at the end of his time, jesus told him that he would been in paradise with him.

He's quite right. Jesus said the criminal hanging with him for the debauchery he caused in his life, would be with Jesus that day in Heaven, however the Bible over and over again tells us that we store riches in heaven based on what we do on earth. the Servants with the 3 talents, 2 talents, and 1 talent immediately come to mind. Some of us will barely get our foot through the door, while others will sit at the table. That is the way of it, and it is Biblical.

Blasphemy is any point where we injure or attempt to injure God's reputation. (Blastien, + Pheme), injure + reputation.

And I think you should back off from your self righteous attitude. You can look up the same scripture as anyone else, instead of insisting they do all the work.

lighten up.

v/r

Q

 

[BlaznFattyz]

And I think you should back off from your self righteous attitude. You can look up the same scripture as anyone else, instead of insisting they do all the work.

lighten up.

v/r

Q

who are you talking to?