Jesus (pbuh) - failed Prophet

The notion of a Trinity did not exist in Judaism. It's unlikely as well that the early Christians believed in a Trinity.

Not only is the trinity revealed to those in judaism who being excluded find themselves being messianic jews or christians, but it pre-dates judaism from the very beginning of creation, to how god revealed himself in prophecy, in visions, and thru the inspired writings of the holy spirit.
 
Not only is the trinity revealed to those in judaism who being excluded find themselves being messianic jews or christians, but it pre-dates judaism from the very beginning of creation, to how god revealed himself in prophecy, in visions, and thru the inspired writings of the holy spirit.
Good for you... Adam was a Son of God, Abraham was a Son of God, Moses was a Son of God... the Holy Spirit verifiably came to Noah... who was a Son of God. So many children of God. I am so amazed that you see it Blazn... maybe I must be mistaken.

In the Gospels Jesus refers to himself as a Prophet and the voice of God refers to him as Son. How many Christians ignore what God and Jesus said... in the gospels, in the bible?
 
Good for you... Adam was a Son of God, Abraham was a Son of God, Moses was a Son of God... the Holy Spirit verifiably came to Noah... who was a Son of God. So many children of God. I am so amazed that you see it Blazn... maybe I must be mistaken.

In the Gospels Jesus refers to himself as a Prophet and the voice of God refers to him as Son. How many Christians ignore what God and Jesus said... in the gospels, in the bible?
all children of god, but none are the Son of God as it refers to the only begotten Son and Lamb of God. We are all corruptible men all destined to die, Jesus is incorruptible and only in him may everlasting life be found.
 
The Trinity is a tradition that tries to make sense of the fact that the three names, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are found together in some places in the New Testament. It tries to make sense of Jesus' relationship with God.

The trinity is a truth. Take it or leave it.

It's a mystery to us because we don't understand what the early Christians believed. We are looking into the past and trying to rediscover the beliefs of our ancestors. It may be a mystery to us, but less likely to have been a mystery to the early Christians.

This label of " mystery " isn't time period specific, it applied to the early Christians as well. The message didn't change from then until now. It was probably somewhat less of a mystery for the early Christians since some of them physically walked with Christ than it is for us, but still a mystery.

The notion of a Trinity did not exist in Judaism. It's unlikely as well that the early Christians believed in a Trinity. If so, why do we not see dialogue and debate about the three-in-one triune God in the New Testament? The epistles, the letters to the churches discussed issues faced by the Christian communities at the time. If someone had been troubled by a three-in-one triune God concept, it would have been discussed. Even if there was no argument among the community, the apostles would at least have mentioned the three-in-one triune God concept, and have warned us against false teachers that were out to assail this valuable truth.

How is it unlikely that the early Christians believed in the trinity? Because they never specifically used the word " trinity " until slightly later?

The trinity was the most discussed doctrine besides that of salvation to the early Christians (and us). It is not something the early christians chose to make up as time went along.

And, the trinity is discussed in the early church. Does the first council of Nicaea ring a bell? Nicene creed anyone?

Once you think the Bible is fallible, the entire subject goes out the window, because Jesus is the Logos.

It is deviation from the original message to say " The Bible is fallible", " the trinity has no basis in the Bible", and " the Christianity we have now is WRONG and flawed".

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all Hypostases, there is no " may or may not be ".

The trinity doesn't just " do for now ", it is eternal, and we do remember what the early Christians believe, it's just that some people have chosen to associate themselves with deviations that are popular and widespread.
 
And, the trinity is discussed in the early church. Does the first council of Nicaea ring a bell?
That's not "early". That's further away from Jesus than the present US is from George Washington.
 
The trinity was the most discussed doctrine besides that of salvation to the early Christians (and us). It is not something the early christians chose to make up as time went along.

And, the trinity is discussed in the early church. Does the first council of Nicaea ring a bell? Nicene creed anyone?

Unless I'm mistaken, that was in the fourth century, almost 300 years since the communities brought forth by Paul, Peter, James and John. Unless the early church's oral tradition was strong, its essential meaning would almost certainly have withered away in the 300 years through to the Council of Nicaea. Traditions passed on from generation to generation will almost always lose their essential meaning. What "preserves" Christianity is the New Testament. The New Testament is our chance to rediscover the past. The traditions we've been following in the last 2,000 years are not "oral tradition" but dogmatic tradition, which doesn't have the same essential meaning as "oral tradition." We are missing a vital piece of the so-called "mystery." When we rediscover the essential meaning of our faith, it won't be a mystery anymore. We will actually understand it. That is the challenge that we face. We're on a quest to solve a 2,000 year mystery.

Well, that's at least the theory I have. I just don't think it was meant to be a mystery. Jesus went around telling people that the Kingdom of God was near, that God was accessible. He was telling people that they could actually see the Kingdom. The point was that you could connect with God, connect with the Kingdom if you did it with your heart not your head. You'd then be able to actually feel God, to feel the Kingdom. God and the Kingdom would become a reality.

Once you think the Bible is fallible, the entire subject goes out the window, because Jesus is the Logos.

Hey, just because the Bible is "fallible," doesn't mean everything in it becomes invalidated. Yes, it says Jesus is Logos. So why don't we use that? I am sure we can find a hundred other important sayings in the Bible that can help us find God. The Bible is not a machine that falls apart just because one part is faulty. Does God need a machine to take us up to heaven? Infallibility and fallibility should not be a concern. The important thing is content. What does it say? What can it tell us? How can it help us? What did the people back then do so that we can follow in their footsteps?

It is deviation from the original message to say " The Bible is fallible", " the trinity has no basis in the Bible", and " the Christianity we have now is WRONG and flawed".

I see the Trinity as progress, but that said, I'd call it a temporary rationalisation that we could, perhaps keep for now. There are thousands of newcomers to Christianity, those born into it, and those introduced to it, that need to learn the basics and I would see a lot of benefits in giving people an experience of one of the many ways we approach the faith. Otherwise, we'd create confusion.

But anyhow, a belief system should not be treated as like a machine that is broken and useless just because one part is "faulty" or "flawed." Imagine that. You had to get the whole machine working otherwise God wouldn't love you. What kind of religion would that be? Do you see Christianity as a machine that you have to get working for you to be one of God's people? One of the benefits of the Trinity is that it "preserves" or "reinforces" our innocence by allowing us to not think so hard about having to define God. It helps us relax and let go. Whether we say it's a mystery or whether we say it's the truth, there is one thing that we are doing in both cases, which is saying, look no further, what you need is right in front of you.

The point here is that God values our innocence. Do you see what I mean? I don't think God even cares whether we get the so-called "Trinity" right or whether we even believe in the Trinity. The important thing is that we are at peace. The reason why we defend the Trinity is to protect others who believe in it. We don't want their innocence violated. At the some time, however, strict conformity and insistence on adherence to a Trinity doctrine could violate the innocence of other people's relationship with God. We've just got to be flexible.

I was not making a point of the Trinity being "wrong." Don't get the wrong idea. My point was that it not be regarded as essential. I would have no problem if all Christians believed in the Trinity.:) Unfortunately, however, we don't all believe in the Trinity. What I do see as wrong is when we don't all believe in the Trinity and we insist that others believe in it too and enforce it on them, or condemn others for not believing in it.

That would be a violation of their innocence. It is easy to say that one must contemplate the nature of God but what about someone else's state of mind, something that God created? Would God not want His creation to be respected? When we violate someone else's innocence, we do emotional damage. We inflict injury on another. We inflict injury on something God created. Where people are persecuted for their belief in the Trinity, they should be defended. Where the Trinity is used to oppress or gain an advantage over others, the movement should be opposed.

What would you make of Jesus' disciples in Mark 10:13-16 discouraging the little children from coming to Jesus? What's the moral of the story? Is there not a lesson to be learnt here? Were these little kids somehow too young to understand what Jesus had to say? God surely doesn't like idol worship, but any concept of God, no matter how stupid that is formed by an innocent mind, I believe, is acceptable to Him.
 
That's not "early". That's further away from Jesus than the present US is from George Washington.

No, that puts it right about the same distance away. Paul lived past 70 AD, as did Peter. Since Paul did not meet Jesus face to face, let's focus on Peter, who did. Since we do not know the exact dates of Jesus death and Peter's death we round off. And that puts it about 250 years apart from the first counsel. The US began its birth pangs around 1742, and was in full labor by 1760. George Washington was born in 1732 and died in 1799 (he was a two term president starting in 1789). That's about 250 years apart from the US today.

v/r

Q
 
I see the Trinity as progress, but that said, I'd call it a temporary rationalisation that we could, perhaps keep for now. There are thousands of newcomers to Christianity, those born into it, and those introduced to it, that need to learn the basics and I would see a lot of benefits in giving people an experience of one of the many ways we approach the faith. Otherwise, we'd create confusion.

But anyhow, a belief system should not be treated as like a machine that is broken and useless just because one part is "faulty" or "flawed." Imagine that. You had to get the whole machine working otherwise God wouldn't love you. What kind of religion would that be? Do you see Christianity as a machine that you have to get working for you to be one of God's people? One of the benefits of the Trinity is that it "preserves" or "reinforces" our innocence by allowing us to not think so hard about having to define God. It helps us relax and let go. Whether we say it's a mystery or whether we say it's the truth, there is one thing that we are doing in both cases, which is saying, look no further, what you need is right in front of you.

The point here is that God values our innocence. Do you see what I mean? I don't think God even cares whether we get the so-called "Trinity" right or whether we even believe in the Trinity. The important thing is that we are at peace. The reason why we defend the Trinity is to protect others who believe in it. We don't want their innocence violated. At the some time, however, strict conformity and insistence on adherence to a Trinity doctrine could violate the innocence of other people's relationship with God. We've just got to be flexible.

I was not making a point of the Trinity being "wrong." Don't get the wrong idea. My point was that it not be regarded as essential. I would have no problem if all Christians believed in the Trinity.:) Unfortunately, however, we don't all believe in the Trinity. What I do see as wrong is when we don't all believe in the Trinity and we insist that others believe in it too and enforce it on them, or condemn others for not believing in it.

That would be a violation of their innocence. It is easy to say that one must contemplate the nature of God but what about someone else's state of mind, something that God created? Would God not want His creation to be respected? When we violate someone else's innocence, we do emotional damage. We inflict injury on another. We inflict injury on something God created. Where people are persecuted for their belief in the Trinity, they should be defended. Where the Trinity is used to oppress or gain an advantage over others, the movement should be opposed.

What would you make of Jesus' disciples in Mark 10:13-16 discouraging the little children from coming to Jesus? What's the moral of the story? Is there not a lesson to be learnt here? Were these little kids somehow too young to understand what Jesus had to say? God surely doesn't like idol worship, but any concept of God, no matter how stupid that is formed by an innocent mind, I believe, is acceptable to Him.

Well, that is a good point. The bible doesn't say to focus on the Holy Spirit, but to let the Holy Spirit guide. And though Jesus allegedly taught us how to pray to the Father, He specifically instructed the faithful to keep their focus on Him.

I'm also thinking of some parallelisms I hadn't considered before. If we insist on new Christians taking in the whole of the Trinity, then things become complicated (too much baggage). Makes it tough to get through the "eye of the needle" (the small door to the side of the city gates). And Jesus said, the only way to get to the Father was through Him. And He implied that the path to Him was straight and "narrow". And He was specific about us having the wonder and "innocence" of a child in order to get to heaven. (keep things simple, not complicated).

And let's face it, without Jesus the Christ as the primary focus...there is no Christianity.

Thanks for the opportunity to consider this Salt.

v/r

Q
 
"That's not "early". That's further away from Jesus than the present US is from George Washington.
No, that puts it right about the same distance away. "
Except a little further. Washington died 1799, that's 208 years ago. Jesus died 36 at the latest possible (more often dated 33 or earlier), so Nicaea was 289 years later. The US will be as far from Washington 81 years from now, or longer (when we will all be dead): will that point be "early" in the history of the US?

"And let's face it, without Jesus the Christ as the primary focus...there is no Christianity. "
How about "loving others" as the primary focus? That was what Jesus was talking about, not "look at ME ME ME" as the gospel of John depicts him.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, that was in the fourth century, almost 300 years since the communities brought forth by Paul, Peter, James and John. Unless the early church's oral tradition was strong, its essential meaning would almost certainly have withered away in the 300 years through to the Council of Nicaea. Traditions passed on from generation to generation will almost always lose their essential meaning. What "preserves" Christianity is the New Testament. The New Testament is our chance to rediscover the past. The traditions we've been following in the last 2,000 years are not "oral tradition" but dogmatic tradition, which doesn't have the same essential meaning as "oral tradition." We are missing a vital piece of the so-called "mystery." When we rediscover the essential meaning of our faith, it won't be a mystery anymore. We will actually understand it. That is the challenge that we face. We're on a quest to solve a 2,000 year mystery.

The tradition was strong and didn't wither away. The sacred tradition of the Orthodox Church includes the Bible, I would hardly call that incomplete.

Well, that's at least the theory I have. I just don't think it was meant to be a mystery. Jesus went around telling people that the Kingdom of God was near, that God was accessible. He was telling people that they could actually see the Kingdom. The point was that you could connect with God, connect with the Kingdom if you did it with your heart not your head. You'd then be able to actually feel God, to feel the Kingdom. God and the Kingdom would become a reality.

Of course you can see the kingdom, the kingdom is in you. And you talk to God through prayer. So, I fail to see how the point has changed.

Hey, just because the Bible is "fallible," doesn't mean everything in it becomes invalidated. Yes, it says Jesus is Logos. So why don't we use that? I am sure we can find a hundred other important sayings in the Bible that can help us find God. The Bible is not a machine that falls apart just because one part is faulty. Does God need a machine to take us up to heaven? Infallibility and fallibility should not be a concern. The important thing is content. What does it say? What can it tell us? How can it help us? What did the people back then do so that we can follow in their footsteps?

If you say the Bible is faulty, and the Bible is the Logos, and Jesus is the Logos, then.... that is calling Jesus flawed. No way to get around it.

And if one part is faulty, then you might as well not put any real meaning into the rest, because if one part is messed up, how do you know the rest isn't as well?



But anyhow, a belief system should not be treated as like a machine that is broken and useless just because one part is "faulty" or "flawed." Imagine that. You had to get the whole machine working otherwise God wouldn't love you. What kind of religion would that be? Do you see Christianity as a machine that you have to get working for you to be one of God's people?

The Bible isn't a machine and Christianity isn't either, and it really is ridiculous to term it as such. Sorry, but it is.

The point here is that God values our innocence. Do you see what I mean? I don't think God even cares whether we get the so-called "Trinity" right or whether we even believe in the Trinity. The important thing is that we are at peace. The reason why we defend the Trinity is to protect others who believe in it. We don't want their innocence violated. At the some time, however, strict conformity and insistence on adherence to a Trinity doctrine could violate the innocence of other people's relationship with God. We've just got to be flexible.

Innocence? What innocence? You mean ignorance? And God most certainly cares if you believe in the trinity, because denying a part of it or the entire thing is denying God and that is blasphemy. Nottttt good.

I was not making a point of the Trinity being "wrong." Don't get the wrong idea. My point was that it not be regarded as essential. I would have no problem if all Christians believed in the Trinity.:)

All Christians do believe in the trinity, and all you have been saying is that it doesn't matter if the trinity is wrong and that it is a temporary solution, so just stop beating around the bush and come out with it already.

What innocence do you think mankind has left? Babies?

When you spread heresy (not you personally), you are bringing people into confusion. Not only is that disrespecting them, but lying, and a whole host of other sins. So hardly is spreading the trinity violating anyone of their innocence, but giving them truth. Real truth.


" People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them.When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them. "

Did the disciples not learn from this incident? Of course they did, they were still walking with Jesus. They figured it out in the end.
 
Innocence? What innocence? You mean ignorance? And God most certainly cares if you believe in the trinity, because denying a part of it or the entire thing is denying God and that is blasphemy. Nottttt good.

:eek: I am ignorant? I submit to G-d, I am His servant, I love and respect the Prophet Jesus (pbuh), as all the Prophets (pbut) and I am ignorant? :eek: (LMAO I have just read the other thread where you are getting annoyed at the use of the term ignorant!!)

I have to disagree very strongly. Denying partners with G-d is NOT denying G-d, quite the opposite it is placing G-d in His rightful place, as Lord of the Universes, with no partners. He is One.

Jesus (pbuh) himself, according to the Bible, said to only worship G-d so I cannot see how G-d would consider me ignorant and blasphemous for following His instructions and those of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh).
 
:eek: I am ignorant? I submit to G-d, I am His servant, I love and respect the Prophet Jesus (pbuh), as all the Prophets (pbut) and I am ignorant? :eek: (LMAO I have just read the other thread where you are getting annoyed at the use of the term ignorant!!)

I'm not even talking about ignorance in that context (but let's not get into that). I'm just saying mankind has no innocence left other than in children. We are not innocent, mankind sins every single day, know it's wrong, and does it anyway. We bring about our own destruction so how can anyone call us innocent?

Which other thread was that? The one where Bob called the Bible a dead book or the nuclear one or...? There are so many!

I have to disagree very strongly. Denying partners with G-d is NOT denying G-d, quite the opposite it is placing G-d in His rightful place, as Lord of the Universes, with no partners. He is One.

God is one in the trinity. There are no partners in God because the persons in the trinity all have the same essence, and I know I've said this a few times before so it's nothing new. This is the Christian faith, I realize it is not your belief, but this is our (meaning Christians in general) faith, and denying a part of God is blaspheming because it is dishonouring Divinity, a sin against God. I am fully aware (believe me, I really am) it is not the same in Islam, but this isn't in an Islamic forum.

Jesus (pbuh) himself, according to the Bible, said to only worship G-d so I cannot see how G-d would consider me ignorant and blasphemous for following His instructions and those of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

The Bible shows us that Jesus is indeed God, several times.

" I and the Father are one. " John 10:30.

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us" John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

"Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" John 14:9

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. "John 8:58

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory " [SIZE=+1]1 Timothy 3:16
[/SIZE]
 
:eek: I am ignorant? I submit to G-d, I am His servant, I love and respect the Prophet Jesus (pbuh), as all the Prophets (pbut) and I am ignorant? :eek: (LMAO I have just read the other thread where you are getting annoyed at the use of the term ignorant!!)

I have to disagree very strongly. Denying partners with G-d is NOT denying G-d, quite the opposite it is placing G-d in His rightful place, as Lord of the Universes, with no partners. He is One.

Jesus (pbuh) himself, according to the Bible, said to only worship G-d so I cannot see how G-d would consider me ignorant and blasphemous for following His instructions and those of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

Ah, but there is one unforgivable sin...to blaspheme the Holy Spirit...so right there is acknowledgement of more than one part to God.

just a thought.

v/r

Q
 
If God is one in the trinity then the trinity is one God, not three Gods. Aspects, essences...whatever, still just one mechanism. Am I a different person than, say, my influence? Here's an apple. I cut the apple into thirds. Now I have three apples, right? But for the sake of convenience it's often useful to stop somewhere short of the ultimate, indescribable Almighty and divide It into smaller pieces for the sake of discussion. Christians stop at three, neo Pagans and Hindus dice it into more pieces. So long as we don't idolize these constructs what's the difference?

Wouldn't it be simpler and more accurate to say that the only unpardonable sin is to dismiss the Holy Spirit?

Chris
 
If God is one in the trinity then the trinity is one God, not three Gods. Aspects, essences...whatever, still just one mechanism. Am I a different person than, say, my influence? Here's an apple. I cut the apple into thirds. Now I have three apples, right? But for the sake of convenience it's often useful to stop somewhere short of the ultimate, indescribable Almighty and divide It into smaller pieces for the sake of discussion. Christians stop at three, neo Pagans and Hindus dice it into more pieces. So long as we don't idolize these constructs what's the difference?

Wouldn't it be simpler and more accurate to say that the only unpardonable sin is to dismiss the Holy Spirit?

Chris
Indeed Chris. But in the case of the Holy Spirit, I believe the sin is "taking credit" for what the Holy Spirit does (which would amount pretty much to a dismissal)...

As far as others "dicing" up the apple even more so...I fail to see the corralation, since the Christian faith can not exist without considering the three as a whole, Jesus as the focus (Word), Father as the thought, and Spirit as the action, of God (the One). In Christianity, none work without the others. In other faiths, the diced up parts are independent and separate from the One. They make up a "collective whole", but that's like saying God is a puzzle of independent parts that may or may not move together (as is often the case in the various histories of gods).

In Christianity, not once as one part of the Trinity ever moved independently or in opposition of the other two.

v/r

Q

as an aside: Jesus never takes credit, the Father never takes credit, and the Holy Spirit never expresses out loud, taking credit...
 
The Bible shows us that Jesus is indeed God, several times.

" I and the Father are one. " John 10:30.

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us" John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

"Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" John 14:9

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. "John 8:58

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory " [SIZE=+1]1 Timothy 3:16[/SIZE]
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

According to Jesus there, he is not the Father. According to Jesus, you are not his Father. According to him, you are either his brother, sister, or mother... if you do the will of his Father... if you do the will of God. Those are not my words. Those are not Thomas' words. Those are not the words of the author of the gospel John. Those are the words allegedly of Jesus, in the gospels. Is there any room for error? I don't see it. According to the words allegedly of Jesus, he is NOT God.

My wife is in me, and I am in my wife, but that does not mean that I am my wife. I am in my parents, and my parents are in me, but that does not mean that I am my parents.
 
Indeed Chris. But in the case of the Holy Spirit, I believe the sin is "taking credit" for what the Holy Spirit does (which would amount pretty much to a dismissal)...

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way.

As far as others "dicing" up the apple even more so...I fail to see the corralation, since the Christian faith can not exist without considering the three as a whole, Jesus as the focus (Word), Father as the thought, and Spirit as the action, of God (the One). In Christianity, none work without the others. In other faiths, the diced up parts are independent and separate from the One. They make up a "collective whole", but that's like saying God is a puzzle of independent parts that may or may not move together (as is often the case in the various histories of gods).

In Christianity, not once as one part of the Trinity ever moved independently or in opposition of the other two.

I was thinking that maybe it's like quantum physics in that the classical analogies we come up with, like a cat that's both half dead and half alive, are stuck in one room while the reality exists in another room into which our intellect can't completely penetrate. We tend to apply terrestrial logic to God. It has to be this, and therefore cannot be this. God can't make a rock bigger than he can lift- kind of thing. Perhaps these constructs like the Trinity exist solely for our instruction and edification. Perhaps when all is revealed we'll say, "oh, I see now! It can be both."

Chris
 
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

According to Jesus there, he is not the Father. According to Jesus, you are not his Father. According to him, you are either his brother, sister, or mother... if you do the will of his Father... if you do the will of God. Those are not my words. Those are not Thomas' words. Those are not the words of the author of the gospel John. Those are the words allegedly of Jesus, in the gospels. Is there any room for error? I don't see it. According to the words allegedly of Jesus, he is NOT God.

My wife is in me, and I am in my wife, but that does not mean that I am my wife. I am in my parents, and my parents are in me, but that does not mean that I am my parents.

Again, the scripture is taken out of context. Must read the whole of the chapter to get the whole of the meaning intended for the reader...
 
That's interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way.



I was thinking that maybe it's like quantum physics in that the classical analogies we come up with, like a cat that's both half dead and half alive, are stuck in one room while the reality exists in another room into which our intellect can't completely penetrate. We tend to apply terrestrial logic to God. It has to be this, and therefore cannot be this. God can't make a rock bigger than he can lift- kind of thing. Perhaps these constructs like the Trinity exist solely for our instruction and edification. Perhaps when all is revealed we'll say, "oh, I see now! It can be both."


Chris

Now, we see through a glass, darkly...now we see in part...

I could not agree with you more on this issue.

v/r

Q
 
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