Genuine Question To Theists Part 2 :)

[Dondi]

But mate, it could be argued that when Jesus spoke of loving your neighbour, he meant that all of mankind is your neighbour.

Just a thought...

Glad you pointed that out. No argument there.

As a matter of fact, Jesus gave a similiar response to a different question in Luke 10:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?" - Luke 10:25-28

At which point Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan, where the enemy came to the aid of his adversary. I won't read it, but you will get the point.

And in fact, Jesus told us to love our enemies:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." - Matthew 5:44-45

Easier said than done, but that is what Christ taught.

 

[Dondi]

Then why do there seem to be so many 'Christians' in the US who would happily nuke Iran, as if doing so were nothing at all?

I don't know of any Christians who desire to see Iran nuked. They'd rather see them saved. On the other hand, I have a couple of atheist and non Christian associates who would like us to obliviate Iran.

 

[wil]

Is this the one you are thinking of.

Ya made me find it. In Luke

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Same story yes? Only the 'expert' answers the quiz. (hence why the other is most often quoted)

And enlightenment...Here Jesus follows with a parable to explain who your neighbor is.

 

[Dondi]

It was the soldier part that threw me off.

 

[wil]

Then why do there seem to be so many 'Christians' in the US who would happily nuke Iran, as if doing so were nothing at all?

Becuase same as the 'muslms' that act as terrorists are not following the pillars, Christians that think we should nuke someone aren't following Christ.

Again, all that claim to be Christians do not think the same, just as all atheists do not. You just can't keep lumping people together.

 

[enlightenment]

I don't know of any Christians who desire to see Iran nuked. They'd rather see them saved.

From what?

 

[Nick_A]

But mate, it could be argued that when Jesus spoke of loving your neighbour, he meant that all of mankind is your neighbour.

Just a thought...

It may be a politically correct and feel good thought but just not accurate. "Neighbor" has a specific meaning for a Christian.

Luke 10

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

"Neighbor" then is one who is capable of and actualizes mercy. That excludes the great majority of the human race.

 

[Dondi]

From what?

From hell. (and I'm not talking about the Johnny Depp movie)

 

[enlightenment]

From hell. (and I'm not talking about the Johnny Depp movie)

Huh? Why would Iranian people go to 'hell'?

 

[wil]

It may be a politically correct and feel good thought but just not accurate. "Neighbor" has a specific meaning for a Christian.

"Neighbor" then is one who is capable of and actualizes mercy. That excludes the great majority of the human race.

Ah the pessismists, they are here to teach me patience.

In the spirit of Mr. Rogers which somehow seems wonderfully warpedly appropriate.

Nick won't you be...my neighbor.

 

[wil]

Then why do there seem to be so many 'Christians' in the US who would happily nuke Iran, as if doing so were nothing at all?

I don't know of any Christians who desire to see Iran nuked. They'd rather see them saved. On the other hand, I have a couple of atheist and non Christian associates who would like us to obliviate Iran.

From what?

From hell. (and I'm not talking about the Johnny Depp movie)

Huh? Why would Iranian people go to 'hell'?

hook line and sinker.

 

[Dream]

Re this; (below). The US sees itself as a Christian nation, predominantly. Keeping this in mind, and the important commandment cited below, you have to ask this - Are the US violating that commandment, as they reigned bombs on Iraq, occupied it, reduced it to rubble. Not much love for a 'neighbour' there, as far as I can see...

Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Then why do there seem to be so many 'Christians' in the US who would happily nuke Iran, as if doing so were nothing at all?

Agree with Wil, however I think you are correct enlightenment. It has been decades since the US was champion of freedom. I think that some people in the upper echelons of power lost their hope in freedom for a while, although I think things are swinging back again to the way they should be. Really, it is the UK, India, France, Germany and other countries that have been carrying the torch of freedom and not us. We have to some degree, but we have also undermined it somewhat. Our CIA should not have been picking and choosing regimes to support, for instance. It is very easy for those in power to lose sight of the big picture, which is to have faith in the populations -- to allow others to determine their own destinies. Freedom of the press is not unlike the right to bear arms, and scares governments. It is the most fragile element of freedom, and it has not been looked after well enough here.

 

[Dondi]

Luke 10

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Nick A.

Thanks for quoting this scripture. It's only then third time in two pages. I think enlightenment will get it this time.

 

[Dondi]

Huh? Why would Iranian people go to 'hell'?

The same reason anyone would go to hell. (Mind you, I am conveying the mainstream Christian frame of thought)

 

[Dondi]

hook line and sinker.

I knew where he was going with it.

 

[enlightenment]

Why do so many theists obsess over the idea of eternal life?

I am less familar with Islam and Judaism, so I will deal with Christianity.

As a 'christian' you accept that which is written in the bible to be the word of god.

You accept Jesus to be the son of god, but oddly enough, god and Jesus are apparently one and the same...

Now, I have asked this question many times to Christians.

What does heaven look like? Indeed, what is it like.

In fairness, they usually answer that they don't know.

Think about that for a moment.

Would you wish to go and live, FOREVER, with someone you had never seen, in a place that you knew nothing about?

Makes no sense to me.

Sorry.

 

[enlightenment]

The same reason anyone would go to hell. (Mind you, I am conveying the mainstream Christian frame of thought)

*hand up*

For not accepting Christ as the son of god, right?

A little arrogant of them, no?

 

[Dondi]

*hand up*

For not accepting Christ as the son of god, right?

A little arrogant of them, no?

Correction:

Not for not accepting Christ as the Son of God, but for not accepting His sacrifice on the cross as payment for their sins.

 

[wil]

Would you wish to go and live, FOREVER, with someone you had never seen, in a place that you knew nothing about?

Makes no sense to me.

Sorry.

I came to this plane of existence not knowing what to expect or who I'd get to play with. I go to the next with the same exuberance. I don't feel confined on this little blue orb, got millions of someones to interact with, my choosing an almost infinite number of places to live..my choice...none of which, location or people can I see them all in my lifetime.

So why would I constrain the next existence to be less spectacular than this one? I look forward to it as I do my next vacation. If either doesn't occur it will not affect me today...or tomorrow.

What I still as yet can't fathom. If you believe it all to be fantasy, and we are happy with it, why do you have this need to piss in our cereal?

You said before we don't affect you personally, we beleivers must, as it irritates you so. Is it jealousy?

 

[Dondi]

Why do so many theists obsess over the idea of eternal life?

I am less familar with Islam and Judaism, so I will deal with Christianity.

As a 'christian' you accept that which is written in the bible to be the word of god.

You accept Jesus to be the son of god, but oddly enough, god and Jesus are apparently one and the same...

Now, I have asked this question many times to Christians.

What does heaven look like? Indeed, what is it like.

In fairness, they usually answer that they don't know.

Think about that for a moment.

Would you wish to go and live, FOREVER, with someone you had never seen, in a place that you knew nothing about?

Makes no sense to me.

Sorry.

Contraire, the bible does explain certain aspects of heaven:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Revelation 22:1-4

It's that last verse that seems to have the most attraction for people.

I could quote a lot more verses about heaven if you wish.

You accept Jesus to be the son of god, but oddly enough, god and Jesus are apparently one and the same...

I've explained elsewhere about my view of the Trinity. I'll repeat it for your perusal, but mind you this is my own conception.

I, myself have devised a view that attempts to consolidate the idea of three Persons forming one God. This is an ongoing process for me, for the difficulty lies in the relationships between within the Three Persons that are still not clear.

But here is my explanation:

1) Since God is the Eternal Spirit, He abides outside of time and space, for time and space, as it has been theorized, make of the fabric of the created Universe. The Eternal manifestation of God, thus constitutes "The Father".

2) In creating the Universe, God also created the means by which He as the Eternal Being would able to interact with His creation. That interaction comes in the form of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is that manifestion of God that is in touch with the physical universe, in all it's many (how many? 10?) dimensions. This is how God is transcedent throughout the whole universe. The Holy Spirit is like a conduit between the Eternal occupational place of God and the finite realm of physical existence. In this view, the Holy Spirit more of an extension of God from the Eternal Realm than a whole separate Person.

3) Within this realm where the Holy Spirit intersects with the physical, God made a provision to enter the human condition. The created thing within Mary is God channeling down from the Eternal through the Holy Spirit, to the form of a man. It is not unlike a puppeteer in control of a puppet, or perhaps more accurately, a kid taking on the form of a video game character, where he is External (Father) to the game, whilst in control through the game controller that causes the electronic signals (Holy Spirit) to follow the wires to the game box and out to the TV where the character moves according to the commands (Son).

Of course, a simple as this analogy is, it doesn't take into account the aforementioned relationship between God the Father and God the Son. There are far more dynamics involved. But I think much of it has to do with the dual nature of Christ, being fully human and fully God, there would no doubt be conflict. Also, there is the matter of reliance on the Holy Spirit in ministry, that as an example, we too can also draw from the same Spirit which was in Christ.