Genuine Question To Theists Part 2 :)

[Saltmeister]

Lol, all these commandments and rules, each different for each religion.

Actually, no, it's all a part of Judaism, but the last seven are for non-Jews. It's Judaism's guidelines on how/what to think of so-called "Righteous Gentiles," ie. Noahides.

Noahidism could be considered as just a "non-Jewish branch" of Judaism, but if you were to think of Christians and Muslims as Noahides, then you could say it's really only one religion, not three. At the moment it's three different religions because (I reckon) we still haven't worked out how we're going to share our relationship with God.

 

[Dream]

I’m not sure where you get these perceptions from. From my perspective, it’s the religious entities that tend to be exclusive of those who are part of the out-group. Just try being a Jew or Christian in any Arab nation. How many Christian Churches are there in the KSA? That’s a rhetorical question, BTW.

I was born into a cult like church in the Bible belt, attended a school connected to the church's main building, and I went from there to another type of cult like group, after which I left all churches and became a skeptic. The main thing gained from that perspective is direct understanding of cult like behavior and the loathing of it. It is impossible to shout, shake, reason or otherwise 'get' someone out of a cult; but they must get themselves out.

An ironclad truth is that religion and cults are part of the human person. You could destroy all religion, but in doing so you would help create new ones. Kings, governors, and other wise persons will continue to manipulate words to make people conform to their wishes, which will ultimately recreate religion over & over. The ideal of freedom of thought, however, has been fighting against that principality for a long time. It seems naive to me to say that getting rid of religions by restricting their speech can make a positive difference in the long run. Far better to allow ideas to run free and let the best ideas win. God save the Queen.

Freedom nibbles away at all cults and holds them at bay. Cult like thought is slowly dissolved by a free thinking culture, so that practical ideas can hold sway. I am sorry if it seems too slow, but our lives are short. This protects both theists and non theists and is compatible with both. Theists believe, for instance, that God is ineffible, unapproachable and inhuman, so that the life of a person is neither owed to nor owned by another. All theistic religions, to my knowledge, have at the beginning the belief in freedom of thought. The religious abuses you have seen are but small instances of much worse things that happen in societies that tell everyone what to think.

That's why many religions use this form of mind control to gain and keep their members. The Abrahamic religions use heaven and hell, the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape, the requirement of a savior as a means to coerce behavior supportive of the religion. The religion cloaks itself under dynamics which affects behavior (teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine), and psychological (gods with a vested interest in the behaviors of men, who can see their sins, who are able to mete out justice -- all of these are severe and inescapable mental leveragings that dictate human behavior-- i.e., psychologies.

and you were going to stop all of this by banning it? It doesn't work that way with human beings. I'll cite the atheist Soviet state, China's Tianaman square, and Enlightenment's little joke about nuking everyone in the Bible belt. If USSR had enouraged free thinking instead of killing all religious people, it wouldn't be Catholic now. China is a huge, supposedly non religious state -- but really it is the opposite. The Bible Belt, on the other hand, is a hot bed of Scientific research; a wellspring of humanists and new atheist cult members by-the-way, and a rapidly changing (you'd say evolving) culture. This is because the Bible belt talks about free thinking, instead of crushing dissent. Even just giving lip service to free thinking goes a long way towards making it happen!

The struggle to allow freedom of thought is one being fought on many fronts, and it is winning even among die hard Creation-Scientist Baptists. Yes it would be easier to kill or suppress the Baptists, but it is much better to help them. In the long run, they will give you hope for the future. Suppressing them undermines that hope.

Have you ever had Atheists knock on your door and hand out pamphlets and literature describing their… well…. Lack of any religious doctrine to invite you to?

No, just you.

 

[enlightenment]

The US, and even the Bible belt (sic), is indeed rich in religous diversity.

I was watching this well made documentary recently, and religion there is like walking into a grill house, and choosing what type of burger to have.

The chap presenting the documentary, he is a well known pastor (if that is the right term), for the COE, and he could not believe that there were sects of Christianity out there who 'prove' the power of god by picking up deadly snakes. There is some ref to that in the Bible, apparently. 100 people have died trying it!

His conclusion was that the US is perhaps one of the most religous nations in the world, yet also the least spiritual.

If that makes any sense.

 

[Dondi]

Two?

What of the other eight?

When Jesus was confronted with a question by the Pharisees about what is the greatest commandment, His response was this:

"...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

Note that last phrase. If you look at the Ten Commandments as found in Exodus 20:1-17, you can divide them into two catagories: Those that deal with our relationship with God in verses 1-11 (i.e. No other gods before me, not taking the Lord's name in vain, etc.) and those that deal with our relationship with others in verses 12-17 (i.e. thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, etc.

All Jesus was doing was making a summation of the law with a focus on it's purpose. Realize that Jesus on occasion berated the Pharisees for making the law a burden rather than a delight by their crass stickling about it. For instance, earlier one Sabbath as Jesus was about to heal a man with a withered hand, the Pharisees tried to charge Jesus that it was unlawful to heal on the Sabbath, since it involved work, when you are supposed to rest. Jesus' response was to ask them if they had a sheep stuck in a pit, would you not try to pull it out of the pit and free it. Then Jesus proceeds to heal the man with the withered hand.

The point Jesus was making is that we mustn't lose sight of the purpose of the law. The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus by seeing which of the Ten Commandments was the greatest. In essence, Jesus' response in Matthew 22 is that they are all equally important, for they deal with our love for God and our neighbor.

As far as the 614 commandments, it is my understanding that these are the cultural, ritual, and moral laws (many of them derivitives of the ten) that the Jews were expected to follow upon their escape from Egypt and their entry into the Promised Land. They are all contained in the first five books of Moses, commonly called the Torah. Our Jewish representatives on this forum could clue you in on these.

 

[wil]

Jesus was quoting the old testament. The test was of him as a Jew, and as a Jew he named what they deemed the top two commandments at the time it was nothing new.

The two, the ten, are all part of the 613.

Orthodox Jews attempt to follow them all. (BB?)

The 10 are popularized by Christianity and they don't focus on the rest.

The two are what we often forget...and are enough to cover just about everything.

 

[enlightenment]

When Jesus was confronted with a question by the Pharisees about what is the greatest commandment, His response was this:

"...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

Note that last phrase. If you look at the Ten Commandments as found in Exodus 20:1-17, you can divide them into two catagories: Those that deal with our relationship with God in verses 1-11 (i.e. No other gods before me, not taking the Lord's name in vain, etc.) and those that deal with our relationship with others in verses 12-17 (i.e. thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, etc.

All Jesus was doing was making a summation of the law with a focus on it's purpose. Realize that Jesus on occasion berated the Pharisees for making the law a burden rather than a delight by their crass stickling about it. For instance, earlier one Sabbath as Jesus was about to heal a man with a withered hand, the Pharisees tried to charge Jesus that it was unlawful to heal on the Sabbath, since it involved work, when you are supposed to rest. Jesus' response was to ask them if they had a sheep stuck in a pit, would you not try to pull it out of the pit and free it. Then Jesus proceeds to heal the man with the withered hand.

The point Jesus was making is that we mustn't lose sight of the purpose of the law. The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus by seeing which of the Ten Commandments was the greatest. In essence, Jesus' response in Matthew 22 is that they are all equally important, for they deal with our love for God and our neighbor.

As far as the 614 commandments, it is my understanding that these are the cultural, ritual, and moral laws (many of them derivitives of the ten) that the Jews were expected to follow upon their escape from Egypt and their entry into the Promised Land. They are all contained in the first five books of Moses, commonly called the Torah. Our Jewish representatives on this forum could clue you in on these.

Thanks for that, mate.

Re this; (below). The US sees itself as a Christian nation, predominantly. Keeping this in mind, and the important commandment cited below, you have to ask this - Are the US violating that commandment, as they reigned bombs on Iraq, occupied it, reduced it to rubble. Not much love for a 'neighbour' there, as far as I can see...



Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[wil]

Thanks for that, mate.

Re this; (below). The US sees itself as a Christian nation, predominantly. Keeping this in mind, and the important commandment cited below, you have to ask this - Are the US violating that commandment, as they reigned bombs on Iraq, occupied it, reduced it to rubble. Not much love for a 'neighbour' there, as far as I can see...



Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The thing about spirituality in my opinion, is that it is completly about my relationship with G!d. Love thy neighbor as thyself is my command, for me to follow for me to gain and understanding and growth by working thru all the foibles which I find myself in in trying.

It is not for me to point to another person, another group or another country and judge how they are doing in that regard. It is a way for me to gauge my growth.

So why spend time deciding who is doing what, violating what? I should just seek to do my best.

 

[Dondi]

Jesus was quoting the old testament. The test was of him as a Jew, and as a Jew he named what they deemed the top two commandments at the time it was nothing new.

The two, the ten, are all part of the 613.

Orthodox Jews attempt to follow them all. (BB?)

The 10 are popularized by Christianity and they don't focus on the rest.

The two are what we often forget...and are enough to cover just about everything.

Yes, yes, Jesus was quoting from the Torah. Very important point, wil. He made sure that his response was based on the Law. The first one appears right after the Shema:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." - Deuteronomy 6:4-5

And the other one in Leviticus:

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." - Leviticus 19:18


The Ten Commandments were written on stone by the finger of God and those tablets were placed in the Ark of the Covenant, which is why there is greater emphasis placed on them. Most of the rest of the Law is derivative of these ten.

 

[wil]

Yes, yes, Jesus was quoting from the Torah. Very important point, wil. He made sure that his response was based on the Law.

Thanx Dondi,

Got another for ya. Your quote is the one oft pointed to, and often misinterpretted as Jesus bringing something new to the table when confronted by the Pharisee. But if I remember correctly when I was exploring this before isn't there another version of the same story in another gospel but it goes the other way around? Where Jesus questions the soldier and the soldier answers correctly?

 

[enlightenment]

I have a female friend in Boston. Anytime I pull out a biblical quote, if it happens to be from the OT, she dismisses it, as if the OT doesn't matter, and it is the NT that matters.

Is that generally the case with Christians?

 

[wil]

I have a female friend in Boston. Anytime I pull out a biblical quote, if it happens to be from the OT, she dismisses it, as if the OT doesn't matter, and it is the NT that matters.

Is that generally the case with Christians?

Can't speak for all Christians, but in my mind, no. Now I also doubt your statement. Anytime?? How about the first words of Genesis? She dismisses this? How about all the old testament prophecy that Christians believe Jesus fulfilled, she dismisses this?

I'm thinking most likely you are pointing to some rule for stoning adulterers, or challenging some metaphor as reality, that atheists have books on (ask the Christian this!, they'll stutter and stammer)

Or am I missing the mark?

 

[Dondi]

Thanks for that, mate.

Re this; (below). The US sees itself as a Christian nation, predominantly. Keeping this in mind, and the important commandment cited below, you have to ask this - Are the US violating that commandment, as they reigned bombs on Iraq, occupied it, reduced it to rubble. Not much love for a 'neighbour' there, as far as I can see...



Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

No, the US doesn't see itself as a Christian nation, at least not anymore. I think it is very much becoming secularized more and more every year, I'm afraid. I, for one, do not agree with every policy that the administration brings into play. Even Bush admits he made some mistakes. Personally, I was all for going into Afganistan, primarily to weed out the Taliban and the terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 (and hopeful get to Bin Laden).

And while I agre that something had to be done about Saddam in that he consistently violated U.N-backed policies, I think we went in with the wrong pretenses. We should have taken care of Afganistan first, then dealt with Saddam.

But this is kinda off the subject since as wil pointed out that we need to focus on doing our part in loving God and our neighbor, and not try to politicalize it.

 

[Dondi]

Thanx Dondi,

Got another for ya. Your quote is the one oft pointed to, and often misinterpretted as Jesus bringing something new to the table when confronted by the Pharisee. But if I remember correctly when I was exploring this before isn't there another version of the same story in another gospel but it goes the other way around? Where Jesus questions the soldier and the soldier answers correctly?

The only soldier story I'm familiar with is the one about the centurian who comes to Jesus to ask that he heal his servant. And as Jesus was about to get up and go to the servant's house, the centurian tells him that he need not to, for just as the centurian is a man of authority and tells one to do this and another to do that, that all Jesus needs to do is say the word and his servant will get healed. Then Jesus proclaims that he has not seen faith like this in all of Israel.

Is this the one you are thinking of.

 

[enlightenment]

But this is kinda off the subject since as wil pointed out that we need to focus on doing our part in loving God and our neighbor, and not try to politicalize it.

But mate, it could be argued that when Jesus spoke of loving your neighbour, he meant that all of mankind is your neighbour.

Just a thought...

 

[enlightenment]

Can't speak for all Christians, but in my mind, no. Now I also doubt your statement. Anytime?? How about the first words of Genesis? She dismisses this? How about all the old testament prophecy that Christians believe Jesus fulfilled, she dismisses this?

No mate, she doesn't. She seems to pick and choose what to accept from the OT.

I'm thinking most likely you are pointing to some rule for stoning adulterers, or challenging some metaphor as reality, that atheists have books on (ask the Christian this!, they'll stutter and stammer)

Or am I missing the mark?

Well, if the OT is the 'word of god', then she should either believe all of it, or none of it, that is my point.

 

[Dondi]

I have a female friend in Boston. Anytime I pull out a biblical quote, if it happens to be from the OT, she dismisses it, as if the OT doesn't matter, and it is the NT that matters.

Is that generally the case with Christians?

I was in a bible study one time and encountered the same thing. A woman says that she hardly reads from the Old Testament, claiming that all we need to know is in the New Testament.

I argued that you will not understand the NT properly without being familiar with the OT. I mean, how else are your going to know what John the Baptist meant by calling Jesus the Lamb of God if you haven't read the OT?

It is tragic that many Christians don't have a proper exegesis of the Old Testament, because you have these TV evangelists that pull OT scriptures out of their ass telling their flock that certian promises and prophesies are for them, when they are in fact for people of Israel.

 

[wil]

Well, if the OT is the 'word of god', then she should either believe all of it, or none of it, that is my point.

Ah, another common mistake by atheists and literalists. The old testament is a compilation of books, myths, allegory, metaphor, analogies, parables written and edited by man over 2000 years ago to explain spirit, nature and their interelationship. Mind you a man that didn't have the knowledge you have today.

 

[wil]

But mate, it could be argued that when Jesus spoke of loving your neighbour, he meant that all of mankind is your neighbour.

Just a thought...

You are getting no disagreement from either I or Dondi in this regard. (I don't think)

 

[enlightenment]

Ah, another common mistake by atheists and literalists. The old testament is a compilation of books, myths, allegory, metaphor, analogies, parables written and edited by man over 2000 years ago to explain spirit, nature and their interelationship. Mind you a man that didn't have the knowledge you have today.

I agree that the OT is precisely that, a book of allegories, metaphors and stories. I apply the same reasoning to the NT. Both the writings of man, from the imagination of man.

 

[enlightenment]

You are getting no disagreement from either I or Dondi in this regard. (I don't think)

Then why do there seem to be so many 'Christians' in the US who would happily nuke Iran, as if doing so were nothing at all?