Luciferianism

Etu Malku said:
Is it better to bear the painful burden of life, or to refuse the burden by killing yourself?

Life is so full of pain, why do we continue to live when we could just kill ourselves and end the pain? The only thing stopping us is our fear of the unknown, our fear of Death.

Religion is based on this fear, when you no longer have religion, you no longer have this fear.
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I wouldn't blame it on religion.
 
seattlegal said:
I wouldn't blame it on religion.
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Indeed. Camus, who was not attracted to "religion" at all, once said that the only real question in metaphysics was "Why is there anything, rather than nothing?" and that, analogously, the only real question in ethics was "Why do anything, rather than die?" I think it's in "Myth of Sisyphus".
 
bob x said:
Indeed. Camus, who was not attracted to "religion" at all, once said that the only real question in metaphysics was "Why is there anything, rather than nothing?" and that, analogously, the only real question in ethics was "Why do anything, rather than die?" I think it's in "Myth of Sisyphus".
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Socrates said "The Unexamined Life is not Worth Living"
Each and every one of us is responsible for our own meaningful existence, it is an individual path and cannot be discovered through anybody else, through any religion, or beliefs. We exist because we all have this path to tread, and this path leads to the Truth.
 
Etu Malku said:
Socrates said "The Unexamined Life is not Worth Living"
Each and every one of us is responsible for our own meaningful existence, it is an individual path and cannot be discovered through anybody else, through any religion, or beliefs. We exist because we all have this path to tread, and this path leads to the Truth.
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Is this a belief, or is it some sort of special knowledge? I would say the only knowledge we have is that we will one day die.
 
seattlegal said:
Is this a belief, or is it some sort of special knowledge? I would say the only knowledge we have is that we will one day die.
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A belief, and I would agree with your statement with the amendment "physically" die.
 
Etu Malku said:
Religion is based on this fear, when you no longer have religion, you no longer have this fear.
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Not true, you can still have this fear without religion. I know several atheists/agnostics that fear death (the unknown). In my experience, when one first leaves organized religion, the fear of death/unknown is greater than it ever was when one was part of that religion.

It takes a lot of hard work to overcome the fear of death without the crutch of religion. It's not just simply a matter of not having religion; although I do think for some people religion can exacerbate the fear of death through the teaching of hell, reincarnating as a lesser being, etc.

However, many with a very strong faith in God/afterlife would argue that religion ultimately helps one overcome the fear of death/unknown and therefore live a fuller life. I can say this is the case for many Christians that I know personally. Faith can give them a peace of mind that they might never be able to acquire on their own accord. Think of how soothing it is for someone (who has faith in God/heaven) to believe they will see their loved ones again someday in heaven. You don't think that reduces their fear of death?


Etu Malku said:
We exist because we all have this path to tread, and this path leads to the Truth.
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Is this Truth absolute or subjective? You have said in the past you're a subjective-truth guy, but you write "the Truth" like it's an absolute? Do you think an Absolute Truth exists and can be known?
 
seattlegal said:
I would say the only knowledge we have is that we will one day die.
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Etu Malku said:
I would agree with your statement with the amendment "physically" die.
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How do you "know" we will one day die? Through observation of others? The same observation that says we "know" the sun will rise tomorrow? The same observation in a laboratory that says we "know" that distilled water under 1 atmosphere of pressure boils at 212 degrees F ? Isn't the observational evidence for water boiling and the sun rising the same observational evidence that you have for human death?

Plato said that knowledge is "justified true belief" and that knowledge and only knowledge (as opposed to opinion) is teachable. Hume on the other hand said we can "know" very little, that everything we think is knowledge is actually just probable opinion. Do you think the boiling point of distilled water under 1 atmosphere of pressure is "probable opinion" or "justified true belief"? Do you think our future physical death is "probable opinion" or "justified true belief"?
 
IowaGuy said:
Not true, you can still have this fear without religion. I know several atheists/agnostics that fear death (the unknown). In my experience, when one first leaves organized religion, the fear of death/unknown is greater than it ever was when one was part of that religion.

It takes a lot of hard work to overcome the fear of death without the crutch of religion. It's not just simply a matter of not having religion; although I do think for some people religion can exacerbate the fear of death through the teaching of hell, reincarnating as a lesser being, etc.

However, many with a very strong faith in God/afterlife would argue that religion ultimately helps one overcome the fear of death/unknown and therefore live a fuller life. I can say this is the case for many Christians that I know personally. Faith can give them a peace of mind that they might never be able to acquire on their own accord. Think of how soothing it is for someone (who has faith in God/heaven) to believe they will see their loved ones again someday in heaven. You don't think that reduces their fear of death?
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I see what you're saying, yet with all their peace of mind in Faith . . . I know they still fear death, they fear judgment, and what will become of them.
Is this Truth absolute or subjective? You have said in the past you're a subjective-truth guy, but you write "the Truth" like it's an absolute? Do you think an Absolute Truth exists and can be known?
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Why subjective of course! :D But, it's absolutely is the truth to me! ;)
 
IowaGuy said:
How do you "know" we will one day die? Through observation of others? The same observation that says we "know" the sun will rise tomorrow? The same observation in a laboratory that says we "know" that distilled water under 1 atmosphere of pressure boils at 212 degrees F ? Isn't the observational evidence for water boiling and the sun rising the same observational evidence that you have for human death?

Plato said that knowledge is "justified true belief" and that knowledge and only knowledge (as opposed to opinion) is teachable. Hume on the other hand said we can "know" very little, that everything we think is knowledge is actually just probable opinion. Do you think the boiling point of distilled water under 1 atmosphere of pressure is "probable opinion" or "justified true belief"? Do you think our future physical death is "probable opinion" or "justified true belief"?
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I agree with you regarding that. :)
I was somewhat making a pun regarding where the path of life leads to.

Etu Malku said:
We exist because we all have this path to tread, and this path leads to the Truth.
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seattlegal said:
I would say the only knowledge we have is that we will one day die.
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Subjectively: do we really start living before we start living like we are dying?

{Yeah, I'm getting ready for the whole mid-life crisis thing to hit! :eek: }
 
Luciferian Morality - how does a Luceferian define their own morality with no "scriptures" or "holy books"? I have read that Luciferianism doesn't have a standard moral code, that individuals should define their own morality.

So if that's the case, how would morality be established on a societal level if every individual thinks they should be able to define their own morality? Does this mean the lack of law and order? Is anarchy is the Luciferian goal for society? Isn't someone that chooses to murder or rape another person just following their own individual morality and breaking taboos, which is what Luciferianism promotes?
 
IowaGuy said:
Luciferian Morality - how does a Luceferian define their own morality with no "scriptures" or "holy books"? I have read that Luciferianism doesn't have a standard moral code, that individuals should define their own morality.

So if that's the case, how would morality be established on a societal level if every individual thinks they should be able to define their own morality? Does this mean the lack of law and order? Is anarchy is the Luciferian goal for society? Isn't someone that chooses to murder or rape another person just following their own individual morality and breaking taboos, which is what Luciferianism promotes?
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I'm not sure where you got that we are "breaking taboos" but I will address the rest of your comment.

Scripture is hardly a very good moral calculator. That aside, Luciferianism as a whole wouldn't have a code of ethics / morality, each individual finds his/her codes of ethics and morality.

The morality on a societal level is usually already established by Laws, and the Luciferian like any other citizen must either follow these Laws or change them. If there were to be a Luciferian society, it would be made up similar to what we have now in the United States and other Democracies.

Personally, I am a fan of Plato's Republic and his association of morals and ethics with music temperament. Simply put, we decide what is good for the society and not the individual. My Luciferian path is one of a spiritual kind and not really about my physical existence to a degree.

We don't promote anarchy or chaos, we promote peace, knowledge, and truth. This does not mean we don't dabble in anarchy and chaos :D though!
 
Etu Malku said:
The morality on a societal level is usually already established by Laws, and the Luciferian like any other citizen must either follow these Laws or change them. If there were to be a Luciferian society, it would be made up similar to what we have now in the United States and other Democracies.
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OK, but let's say hypothetically that a group of Luciferians were going to start their own society, where Laws weren't already established; a new colony on Mars for the sake of argument. Wouldn't the setting of moral laws by a group of Luciferians constitute a defined morality, exactly the thing you're arguing against with "each individual finds his/her codes of ethics and morality"?
 
Etu Malku said:
My Luciferian path is one of a spiritual kind and not really about my physical existence to a degree.
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If you're agnostic with regards to supernatural spirits, can you please explain what you mean by "my Luciferian path is one of a spiritual kind"?

What is "spirituality" to a Luciferian that doesn't believe in deities or supernatural powers?
 
Etu Malku said:
Personally, I am a fan of Plato's Republic and his association of morals and ethics with music temperament. Simply put, we decide what is good for the society and not the individual.
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Eek! The Philosopher Kings! :eek:

**runs and hides behind Chuang Tzu**

{Plato is waaay too authoritarian for my taste. Every time I read Plato, I keep wishing and hoping that Chuang Tzu would just slap him silly!}
 
IowaGuy said:
OK, but let's say hypothetically that a group of Luciferians were going to start their own society, where Laws weren't already established; a new colony on Mars for the sake of argument. Wouldn't the setting of moral laws by a group of Luciferians constitute a defined morality, exactly the thing you're arguing against with "each individual finds his/her codes of ethics and morality"?
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I guess we would have to agree on a social standard, a society is what's good for the society not the individual.
 
IowaGuy said:
If you're agnostic with regards to supernatural spirits, can you please explain what you mean by "my Luciferian path is one of a spiritual kind"?

What is "spirituality" to a Luciferian that doesn't believe in deities or supernatural powers?
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Our Higher-Self, our Dæmon.
But . . . who said I don't "believe" in them? :rolleyes:

I practice rituals from time to time, with entities and everything! Invocations, evocations, conjurations . . . all that good stuff.
 
Etu Malku said:
Our Higher-Self, our Dæmon.
But . . . who said I don't "believe" in them? :rolleyes:

I practice rituals from time to time, with entities and everything! Invocations, evocations, conjurations . . . all that good stuff.
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"all that good stuff" that is a product of your mind, as you have said before. Maybe your definition of agnostic is different than mine. I don't know any agnostics that believe in supernatural powers, do you believe in actual supernatural powers that exist in the OU?
 
IowaGuy said:
"all that good stuff" that is a product of your mind, as you have said before. Maybe your definition of agnostic is different than mine. I don't know any agnostics that believe in supernatural powers, do you believe in actual supernatural powers that exist in the OU?
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Products of your mind can become as real as things in the OU. Perhaps the agnostics that you know don't understand natural and un-natural?

But that is besides the point, agnosticism to me means to question everything, it allows for 'belief' and maybe even 'faith'.
 
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