Lord's Prayer Change

wil said:
The pope just asked everyone to catch up to Unity...
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Yep, about time. The lead/leave debate is of course a matter of vernacular English. The theological debate is, as the article says, a lot more nuanced. The French were there way before us all.

Interesting in light of discussions elsewhere about predestination if God knows what we will do ...

Interesting too, as I looked up 'father' in the 'Metaphysical Bible Dictionary' and there's a paragraph that says:
"There is also another sense in which we think of God as Father. Jesus would not have chosen the word father to describe God had He wished simply to describe a cause or principle... There is a relationship with God into which we can enter where He seems "closer . . . than breathing... " As I thought your expression of God not as Person but as Principle was a Unity doctrine. (God as both Person and Principle is, of course, an ancient tradition, God the Father being Arche Anarchos — 'the Principle without principle'.)

This immanence Augustine spoke of as interior intimo meo et superior summo meo – 'more inward than my innermost self and higher than my highest" (Confessions 3.6.11).

Theologian Denys Turner's exegesis: "God is not to be sought outside the self, for God is already there 'within', eternally more intimate to me than I am to myself. It is I who am 'outside' myself and it is the God within who initiates, motivates and guides the seeking whereby and in which God is to be found. Not only is God within my interiority; it is from the God within that the power comes which draws me back into myself, and so to God.' (The Darkness of God: Negativity in Christian Mysticism, p59). The seat of that interiority is the heart in ancient tradition. All this, of course, preserves the 'otherness' of God an avoids the pitfalls on pantheism/panentheism.
 
Opening this thread again...

To basically explore what folks today think "Jesus said" people often say this, but Jesus did not speak English and the best we know about what Jesus said or what Jesus did is biased, agenda based translations from Quoine Greek or Aramaic into English and then of course dozens of versions after that!

So lets just explore the Lord's prayer, and the oldest Greek, Aramaic and Latin we can find.

To me the Lord's Prayer and Beatitudes are the cornerstone of Christian Teachings.

Let's explore the differences in modern translations from the oldest documents.
 
Here are two common translations from the original Galilean Aramaic/Peshitta dialect into English.
Traditional Direct Translation
Abwoon d'bwashmaya > Our Father who art in heaven,
Nethqadash shmakh > Hallowed be thy name.
Teytey malkuthakh > Thy kingdom come,
Nehwey tzevyanakh aykana d'bwashmaya aph b'ar'a > Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Hawb lan lachma d'sunqanan yaomana > Give us this day our daily bread,
Washboq lan khaubeyn (w'khtahayn) aykana d'aph khnan shbaqnan l'khayyabayn > And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
W'la tahlan l'nesyona, ela patzan min bisha > And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Metol dilakhie malkutha w'chayla w'teshbuchta l'alam almin. Amen. > For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
Literal Word-for-Word Break Down
Abwoon – Birther/Father of the cosmos
d'bwashmaya – who is in the heavens/vibration
Nethqadash – sanctuary/make holy
shmakh – Your name/sound
Teytey – come/manifest
malkuthakh – Your rule/royalty
Nehwey – let there be
tzevyanakh – Your desire/will
aykana – as/just like
d'bwashmaya – in heaven
aph b'ar'a – also on earth
Hawb lan – give to us
lachma – bread/nourishment
d'sunqanan – of our need
yaomana – today/this day
Washboq lan – and forgive us
khaubeyn – our debts/offenses
aykana d'aph khnan – just as we also
shbaqnan – have forgiven
l'khayyabayn – our debtors
W'la tahlan – and do not let us enter
l'nesyona – into trial/temptation
ela patzan – but detach/free us
min bisha – from error/evil
 
Neil Douglas-Klotz's Prayers of the Cosmos:
Abwoon d'bwashmaya: "O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, you create all that moves in light." (or "O Thou! The Breathing Life of all, Creator of the Shimmering Sound that touches us.")
Nethqadash shmakh: "Focus your light within us—make it useful: as the rays of a beacon show the way."
Teytey malkuthakh: "Create your reign of unity now—through our fiery hearts and willing hands."
Nehwey tzevyanakh aykana d'bwashmaya aph b'ar'a: "Your one desire then acts with ours, as in all light, so in all forms."
Hawb lan lachma d'sunqanan yaomana: "Grant what we need each day in bread and insight; substance for the call of growing life."
Washboq lan khaubeyn aykana d'aph khnan shbaqnan l'khayyabayn: "Loose the cords of mistakes binding us, as we release the strands we hold of others' guilt."
W'la tahlan l'nesyona, ela patzan min bisha: "Don't let surface things delude us, but free us from what holds us back."
Metol dilakhie malkutha w'chayla w'teshbuchta l'alam almin. Amen: "From you is born all ruling will, the power and life to do, the song that beautifies all—from age to age it renews. Truly—may this be the ground from which all my actions grow."
 
Matthew 6:9–13 (Lamsa Bible)
"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen."
Luke 11:2–4 (Lamsa Bible)
"Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."

Here is Dr. Rocco Errico's translation (a student of George Lamsa's) of the Lord's Prayer from the Aramaic text:

"Our Father who is everywhere,
Let your name be set apart.
Come your kingdom (counsel).
Let your desire be, as in the universe, also on the earth.
Provide us our needful bread from day to day.
And free us from our offenses, as also we have freed our offenders.
And do not let us enter into temptation,
But separate us from error.
For belongs to You the kingdom, the power, and the song and praise.
From all ages throughout all ages. Amen."
 
Whatever the translation Jesus makes it clear that the Father is open and responsive to personal prayer, imo
 
Thomas said:
Not only is God within my interiority; it is from the God within that the power comes which draws me back into myself, and so to God.' (The Darkness of God: Negativity in Christian Mysticism, p59).
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I might go so far as to say "Not only is God within my interiority" but that "God is my interiority" – meaning God is the source and root and ground of that which draws me in to Himself.

Which, as @RJM says, opens the way to, and rests in, prayer.
 
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Thomas said:
I might go so far as to say "Not only is God within my interiority" but that "God is my interiority" – meaning God is the source and root and ground of that which draws me in to Himself.

Which, as @RJM says, opens the way to, and rests in, prayer.
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I often contemplate the "G!d within" and the "in him i live and breathe and have my being", the "wave is in the ocean and the ocean in the wave"

I frankly love the infinite nature of the thought, G!d is all there is, G!d is everywhere present.

The teach us to pray...the this is how to pray...the use of the lord's prayer as a recitation ya gotta say exactly that way...

Yet we have dozens of iterations of how to say it...i rest happily, comfortably in their is no right way to say it...just do it.
 
Like any discipline, we learn, and then we practice. I mean, Jesus taught that prayer.

In the Hart translation, Luke starts:
"And it happened that as he was praying, when he finished, a certain one of his disciples said to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John too taught his disciples'." (11:1)
So prayer is taught. Not just the words, but the how. John the Baptist did. Jesus did.

And his brevity nails it:
"Father, let your name be held sacred; let your Kingdom come; give us each day our bread, enough for the day ahead, and forgive us our sins, for we also forgive all who are indebted to us; and do not bring us to trial" (11:2-4)

Matthew:
"Our Father, who are in the heavens, let your name be held holy; let your Kingdom come; let your will come to pass, as in heaven so also upon earth; give to us today enough bread for the day ahead; and excuse us our debts, just as we have excused our debtors; and do not bring us to trial, but rescue us from the wicked man. [For yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory unto the ages. Amen.]" (6:9-13)

Matthew's is fuller, but he spends more time at the beginning of the chapter on instruction, and after the prayer, says:
"For, if you excuse human beings their offenses, your heavenly Father will also excuse you" (v14)
Which put it in a very matter-of-fact context.

I'm cautious of the more poetic translations: "And when praying do not babble repetitious phrases as the gentiles do; for they imagine that they will be listened to by virtue of their prolixity." (v8)
 
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Just some reference notes that might be of interest:

The Lord's Prayer was first written in Greek, by Matthew and Luke.

The Peshitta is the oldest Aramaic version of the New Testament, written in Early Classical Syriac, derived from Aramaic, but has evolved away from the Galilean Aramaic that Jesus spoke, and dates to between the 3rd and 5th centuries CE.
 
The Douglas-Klotz version is more a poetic interpretation in line with his personal philosophy than a translation.

The known Aramaic texts do not contain his mystical expansions, and he admits himself that it is not meant to be a formal, scholarly transliteration. Nor can it be said to be a "true" version in any meaningful sense. It may well be what he gets out of it, but I'm not sure his version would make sense to a 1st century Galilean?
 
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Thomas said:
Jesus taught that prayer
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There in lies the rub...what prayer...the Aramaic?

I mean the "synaptic gospels" dont even agree the wording...and people swear we were very good at remembering verbatim or one thread here insisting people were taking notes with quill pens and papyrus...yet every scribe and interpretation provides two versions to argue about.

I believe more in the nature and tenor of he taught how to pray....not word for word dogma of what to pray.
 
@Thomas isnt it thought that Jesus spoke mostly in Aramaic? Isnt wasnt the greek written 60 years after his desth and more for readers than the actual words he spoke?

What have you on the difference between the Mathew and the Luke and why do Christian denominations repeat their version of the prayer repeatedly instead of praying in that manner?
 
wil said:
@Thomas isnt it thought that Jesus spoke mostly in Aramaic?
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From what I understand, yes.

The issue here is that the oldest Aramaic complete text is the Peshitta, which is written in classical Syriac, in the 5th-6th century. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic, but has its own alphabet and was somewhat removed from the Galilean Aramaic of Jesus.

The Peshitta and other fragments (all 5th century or later) are all translated from the Koine Greek. There's no remains of, nor any reference to, any Biblical materials written in, Galilean Aramaic.
wil said:
Isnt wasnt the greek written 60 years after his desth and more for readers than the actual words he spoke?
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Depends on when we date the texts, and the impossibility of dating the materials the texts draw on. For Luke, written after Matthew, somewhere between 35-60 years later.

wil said:
What have you on the difference between the Mathew and the Luke ...
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The only difference is in comparing the two texts? Luke's is shorter, but the core structure is essentially the same?

Luke's gospel, which uses Mark and interweaves Matthew, edits Matthew when Luke thinks Matthew's adding his own gloss. Luke keeps Matthew where he thinks it's fitting.

(For example, Matthew clearly had a beef with the Pharisees. Mark has Jesus face off with "teachers of the law", the Pharisees are more a generic group. Matthew fuses the scribes and Pharisees into a single hostile entity and his Jesus goes for them with a vengeance! Luke was not opposed to confrontation, but was a bit 'steady on, old boy' with regard to Matthew.)

wil said:
and why do Christian denominations repeat their version of the prayer repeatedly instead of praying in that manner?
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Sorry, not sure what you mean here?
 
Many denominations have different versions they recite at either every service or at the call of the preacher or priest "let us repeat"

Like the "lead" or "leave" some take out.whole lines, some change the words to suit their belief and affect the meaning greatly to suit their denomination.
 
wil said:
Matthew 6:9–13 (Lamsa Bible)
"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen."



Luke 11:2–4 (Lamsa Bible)
"Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."

Here is Dr. Rocco Errico's translation (a student of George Lamsa's) of the Lord's Prayer from the Aramaic text:

"Our Father who is everywhere,
Let your name be set apart.
Come your kingdom (counsel).
Let your desire be, as in the universe, also on the earth.
Provide us our needful bread from day to day.
And free us from our offenses, as also we have freed our offenders.
And do not let us enter into temptation,
But separate us from error.
For belongs to You the kingdom, the power, and the song and praise.
From all ages throughout all ages. Amen."
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Honestly I don't detect great significant differences between the three versions. What are the big differences exactly? Except for perhaps the word (counsel) in brackets in the Aramaic version to explain what 'your kingdom' is supposed to mean?

EDIT: The Aramaic version replaces 'heaven' with 'everywhere' ... ok. It doesn't change the meaning of the prayer?
 
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Christ preached mostly in parables. It is the overall meaning and not the exact use of words that matters.

EDIT: I think there is a reaction to American evangelicals shouting but seldom showing the things Christ said?

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28
 
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