Married Catholic clergy

Cino said:
I question that, first and foremost.
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It would be interesting to send an army out against say, a Roman legion, without a general, colonels, sergeants -- I don't think it would come to a good result, lol
 
Yes, well, I equally question the Roman leadership. The "we" in "we need leaders" refers to all of humanity, in my view.
 
Cino said:
I understand, thanks for this!

Something about myself:

Me, I don't like hierarchies of power. States, corporations, churches, it's all the same, in this respect. The insignia, the robes, the logo (as in a corporate logo), the stamps the sacraments, the license agreements... the structures which will slot in a fresh human being once the previous one stopped functioning and was spit out... it is all inimical to me.

I see the appeal, the promise of stability and care-taking, and the sense of awe in the face of powerful structures.

I have seen the ugly side once too often, the sanctioned violence, the truncheon, the scent of mace, the threat of unemployment, the social marginalization of not submitting to power, to the petty tyrants, the big tyrants, authority, wealth, and class.

So, what I would do - and I acknowledge your inviolable right to do what you do, and do not judge you or demean you - I would ask a good friend to bless my rosary.
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As I see it, ALL hierarchies are hierarchies of power. They can't help being so. For me, the "power" of God is of another order. "My strength is made perfect in weakness". Give me the "watercourse way".

Yes, ask a friend.
 
Cino said:
Yes, well, I equally question the Roman leadership. The "we" in "we need leaders" refers to all of humanity, in my view.
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"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"

"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
CobblersApprentice said:
Yes, ask a friend
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Thanks for the advice, but I'll stick to the programme and ask God.

EDIT: Hey, how about I just bless my own rosary? That would work!
 
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Or I could ask my boss at work?
 
As far as I know in Jewish religion there are priests and Levites trained to perform temple sacrifices and duties? They have to perform certain ablutions and put on clean ceremonial robes, everything must be clean and spotless, and only the 'ordained' officials are allowed to enter beyond a certain level into the temple, etc.

I could ask their friend to bless my rosary?
EDIT: It doesn't matter who I ask. I could ask my goldfish?
 
RJM Corbet said:
As far as I know in Jewish religion there are priests and Levites trained to perform temple sacrifices and duties? They have to perform certain ablutions and put on clean ceremonial robes, everything must be clean and spotless, and only the 'ordained' officials are allowed to enter beyond a certain level into the temple, etc.

I could ask their friend to bless my rosary?
EDIT: It doesn't matter who I ask. I could ask my goldfish?
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It's a matter of trust, and faith in the other person's (or being's in the case of goldfish or deities) empowerment, I think.

So a clergyman merits your trust and faith in their empowerment more than your boss perhaps, and I think this is how it should be for you!

I would't want my boss to bless my mala beads, either. To me, the blessings of a close comrade on the spiritual path are more meaningful than those of what to me would be the functionary on duty of a religious hierarchy. And that's how it it should be for me!
 
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Do you think I could ask your goldfish to do it? Would he mind? Perhaps I could ask him to bless the cross I wear around my neck as well? But I'll probably have to ask twice, in case he forgets, lol?
 
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RJM Corbet said:
Do you think I could ask your goldfish to do it? Would he mind? Perhaps I could ask him to bless the cross I wear around my neck as well? But I'll probably have to ask twice, in case he forgets?
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I don't have a goldfish, I'm afraid.

Speaking of fish blessings, the Gospel story about how Jesus told his disciples to pay taxes by taking money from the mouth of a fish they caught just crossed my mind, don't know if this is relevant at all...
 
Actually that reminds me: I haven't got a goldfish either. My dog died and I don't have any cats. No friends neither.
 
RJM Corbet said:
"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"

"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

Thanks for the advice, but I'll stick to the programme and ask God.

EDIT: Hey, how about I just bless my own rosary? That would work!
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I see the thread has descended into farce! :)

Obviously I was only speaking of personal preference, not offering anyone advice.

Seriously - if that is appropriate - in essence I do not even see one as "better" than the other. This in the "have your cake and eat it to" way of Dogen, on which I will seek to expand elsewhere.

"The only extension to the present is intensity" Lama Govinda

And each moment should be "judged" not by its level of productivity, but by the degree of presence.
 
I once attended an interview with the yogi BKS Iyengar. I had some prayer beads with me so I passed them to him and he took them from me: 'Oh, thank you!' Like these are all I ever wanted. He was embarrassed.

Then I shook my head: 'No, I want them back.' And he smiled and gave them back to me. He was an amazing man, he had great personal power. I considered those beads to have acquired something of his power, it meant something to me that Iyengar had handled them.
 
RJM Corbet said:
I once attended an interview with the yogi BKS Iyengar. I had some prayer beads with me so I passed them to him and he took them from me: 'Oh, thank you!' Like these are all I ever wanted. He was embarrassed.

Then I shook my head: 'No, I want them back.' And he smiled and gave them back to me. He was an amazing man, he had great personal power. I considered those beads to have acquired something of his power, it meant something to me that Iyengar had handled them.
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"When a pick-pocket sees a saint, all he sees are his pockets"
 
CobblersApprentice said:
in essence I do not even see one as "better" than the other
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No. But they are different. Diamonds are essentially no better than dog turds. Kim Kardashian prefers diamonds and scarab beetles prefer dung. Each to their own, hey?
 
RJM Corbet said:
The Pope is not infallible in all things. But when he makes certain special rulings, as the successor of St Peter as the head of Christ's church on earth -- and only after long consultations with his advisors, etc -- his word is considered by the Church to be infallible. Papal infallibility is not a small thing and it is very seldom used.
Something like that, I think ...
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Yes, along those lines.

As you say, the pope is not infallible. When he speaks 'ex cathedra', that is when he makes a doctrinal and dogmatic statement 'from the Chair of St Peter', then he speaks for the whole church — what renders the declaration specifically an instance of papal infallibility is the dogma declared cannot be proven from Scripture — as nearly the entire content of Catholic doctrine and dogma argue from Scripture on, the instances of such declarations are exceedingly rare.

So rare, theologians are not sure how many, but the common consensus is ... two.

The first was the Immaculate Conception of Mary (free of Original Sin) by Pius IX and the second was the (bodily) Assumption of Mary (into heaven) by Pius XII. It's worth pointing out that these two dogmas, defined in 1854 and 1950 respectively, were commonly held beliefs within the church, and had been so for centuries. They just weren't dogmas.

On the other hand, there are 'definitive statements' (and here we get legalistic and technical) which are effectively treated as dogmas, but in fact are not. The marriage of clergy, the ordination of women, the view of birth control or euthanasia, for example, are pretty much de facto statements, but that could change in the future.

As most of the faithful are not theologians, and nor necessarily are bishops(!), the distinctions tend to get blurred. The Galileo fiasco was just such an example.
 
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Thomas said:
most of the faithful are not theologians, and nor necessarily are bishops(!), the distinctions tend to get blurred.
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Thank you.
Yes, we are lucky enough to have such an accomplished theologian as @Thomas right here on IO ...
 
RJM Corbet said:
No. But they are different. Diamonds are essentially no better than dog turds. Kim Kardashian prefers diamonds and scarab beetles prefer dung. Each to their own, hey?
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There is a beauty in difference.

Sometimes an Orthodoxy seeks to impose a privileged interpretation.
 
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