Jesus vs the Church

Cino said:
So Baha'u'lla named Abdul Baha, who in turn named Shoghi Effendi. But there it stopped, lesser Covenant nonwithstanding. The hereditary office has been vacant since, and cannot be taken by anyone ever again. Plus, there was a succession crisis, until the Universal House of Justice emerged victorious.

I see lots of parallels here with other faiths and their struggles
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The difference is the Universal House of Justice is in the Covenant and the end of the line of the Guardian was allowed for.

The Guardian fulfilled the role. The issue we now face is that no more interpretation can be made.

Thus the lesser Covernant continues with the Universal House of Justice.

I see no issue, as what has been interpreted, is all we should really need for the next 1000 years.

The Universal House of Justice has been given authority to enact and repeal law that is not detailed and interpreted in the writings.

Again, a lot of sundry information is behind these short comments.

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
The Guardian fulfilled the role. The issue we now face is that no more interpretation can be made.
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So what remains is a purely administrative hierarchy, without spiritual legitimation. No more priests, but no spiritual authority either, and you kept the kings around, and the administrative power structure of your faith. To someone like me, this looks like the worst of both worlds, worldly and spiritual.

Maybe Jesus and Muhammad were wiser in giving their successors more leeway. Even if it led to conflict, it kept the spark alive, as it were?
 
Cino said:
I think see what you mean, each holder of the top leadership position had to make a written testament which named their heir, to avoid any succession crisis.

Other faiths have solved this in different ways. The Roman Catholics have a touch of democracy in theirs, which also safeguards against unexpected death of the heir

So Baha'u'lla named Abdul Baha, who in turn named Shoghi Effendi. But there it stopped, lesser Covenant nonwithstanding. The hereditary office has been vacant since, and cannot be taken by anyone ever again. Plus, there was a succession crisis, until the Universal House of Justice emerged victorious.

I see lots of parallels here with other faiths and their struggles with leadership and power.
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Mormons have solved this by a hierarchy that gives automatic succession regardless of qualification. The original succession crisis form Joseph Smith's myopia of not looking ahead to potential problems caused them enough headaches that they adapted an automatic system which they love to present as always and ever revelation in order to keep up the pretense of legitimacy. It must be working well, they now make well over $6,000,000,000 annual with their investments, convincing their people they are the only legitimate means to God. The Gospel of prosperity is a magnetic pull, no doubt about it.
 
Cino said:
So what remains is a purely administrative hierarchy, without spiritual legitimation. No more priests, but no spiritual authority either, and you kept the kings around, and the administrative power structure of your faith. To someone like me, this looks like the worst of both worlds, worldly and spiritual.

Maybe Jesus and Muhammad were wiser in giving their successors more leeway. Even if it led to conflict, it kept the spark alive, as it were?
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After all, the sun itself does not select just a few chosen few to shine on, but literally covers the world. One can easily imagine the spiritual light does so since the physical light behaves no different than the spiritual light since all is One anyway.
 
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Cino said:
So what remains is a purely administrative hierarchy, without spiritual legitimation. No more priests, but no spiritual authority either, and you kept the kings around, and the administrative power structure of your faith. To someone like me, this looks like the worst of both worlds, worldly and spiritual.

Maybe Jesus and Muhammad were wiser in giving their successors more leeway. Even if it led to conflict, it kept the spark alive, as it were?
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If that is how you wish to approach the subject, that is in the light of negation, each time we discuss this, then I see no point in the discussion.

The Message of Muhammad was given in that light as the Covernant was broken on his death bed. The Bible foretells this as the dead bodies laying in the street for 1260 years.

A Muslim says each day There is no God, but God.

They first utter a negation, there is no God, before the affirmation but God.

I soon walk away from negative based comments, life is to beautiful to continue in this way.

But please I am not having a go at you personally, as I see this negative approach has become the normal way we see the world. We are always looking for the bad, wheras we should be always looking for the light.

I have read your passage looking for light, a positive aspect to dwell on, but I could only find a negative intent.

Could you read what you wrote and show me where there was any other intent?

Regards Tony
 
ScholarlySeeker said:
This appears to me to be akin to saying well, after all, the sun has shined for several thousand years, there is no more reason for it to...
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Or we can consider a 'Day of God' is like a 1000 years and that day Dawn's as per God's Will.

As each dispensation has a rising point and a setting point, we know at the start of the day and the end of the day, the Sun is not yet seen in its full Splendor.

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
If that is how you wish to approach the subject, that is in the light of negation, each time we discuss this, then I see no point in the discussion.
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I apologize for the negativity. This discussion is frustrating to me, as well. Each time I ask you direct questions, you avoid giving answers from your own personal point of view, but evade into general observations delivered in the passive voice.

The Message of Muhammad was given in that light as the Covernant was broken on his death bed. The Bible foretells this as the dead bodies laying in the street for 1260 years.

A Muslim says each day There is no God, but God.

They first utter a negation, there is no God, before the affirmation but God.
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Don't the Bahai daily prayers contain precisely the same phrase?

I soon walk away from negative based comments, life is to beautiful to continue in this way.

But please I am not having a go at you personally, as I see this negative approach has become the normal way we see the world. We are always looking for the bad, wheras we should be always looking for the light.
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I agree that it is the light we seek. I have a qualification, however: Seeking the light is not achieved by going into denial about the darkness.

I have read your passage looking for light, a positive aspect to dwell on, but I could only find a negative intent.

Could you read what you wrote and show me where there was any other intent?

Regards Tony
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My intent is to find the spark of light in your words about the Baha'i message, the breath of fresh air, the open sky.
 
Cino said:
Don't the Bahai daily prayers contain precisely the same phrase?
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One verse is "There is none other God but thee", in the short obligatory prayer.

Baha'u'llah removed the negation.

There is volumes written on this subject.

Sorry in a hurry, work calls thank you for conversing.

Regards Tony
 
Cino said:
My intent is to find the spark of light in your words about the Baha'i message, the breath of fresh air, the open sky
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Well done a noble and just intent.

That is the way we should look at all scripture and all things.

Catch you later. Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
One verse is "There is none other God but thee", in the short obligatory prayer.

Baha'u'llah removed the negation.

There is volumes written on this subject.

Sorry in a hurry, work calls thank you for conversing.

Regards Tony
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Thanks for pointing this out, it is fascinating! However, "There is no god but Thee" vs "There is no god but God" - both contain the negation, but I can see the difference in address.

What does this difference mean to you personally?
 
Cino said:
Thanks for pointing this out, it is fascinating! However, "There is no god but Thee" vs "There is no god but God" - both contain the negation, but I can see the difference in address.

What does this difference mean to you personally?
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You have given me much to consider, Thankyou. I had never considered that before and never really noted it in that light, so had to go back and consider why I had not seen it in that way.

Personally I see that the Word of God has far more mysterious unfolding in this world than we have ever considered and the topic of disconnected letters and Negation and Affirmation are far beyond my pay grade. :) It is a subject that has become interesting to me.

Pondering your question as what difference it makes to me, I note that I had to go back and read more of what was offered on this subject. I will put that under a spoiler.

What I did note in the 3 obligatory prayers was that this passage does not open the prayers, that it becomes a confirmation in the body of the prayer.

The Short prayer starts, "I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee.... "

The Medium starts, "Strengthen my hand, O my God, that it may take hold of Thy Book with such steadfastness that the hosts of the world shall have no power over it...."

The Long starts, "
Whoso wisheth to recite this prayer, let him stand up and turn unto God and, as he standeth in his place, let him gaze to the right and to the left, as if awaiting the mercy of his Lord, the Most Merciful, the Compassionate. Then let him say:

O Thou Who art the Lord of all names and the Maker of the heavens! I beseech Thee by them Who are the Daysprings of Thine invisible Essence, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, to make of my prayer a fire that will burn away the veils which have shut me out from Thy beauty, and a light that will lead me unto the ocean of Thy Presence... "

The phrase there is no God but Thee appears in each of the prayers, which to date I have seen it as an affirmation of what has been previously said in the prayer.

So thank you for opening up a whole new frame of reference for me. If you would like to see where I first considered this subject, I have posted quotes and some thoughts under the spoiler. Interesting, it appears it is mainly connected to the Covernant.

This is where my thoughts come from, in this explanation, it is explained that the negation is connected to past broken Covernants and how in this dispensation, the Covernant is protected by the affirmation.

".. In the Tablet of Salmán Bahá'u'lláh explains one of the most interesting mysteries in the Qur'án, a mystery which had hitherto remained unnoticed. He refers to the well-known phrase, 'There is no God but Him'. This is the cardinal statement of faith which every Muslim must make, and which is the basis of the Islámic religion.

As we have previously written,* the Word of God has many significances which are beyond the ken of men. There are inner meanings enshrined in the Word of God which only His Manifestation and those whom He guides understand. Bahá'u'lláh explains that in this phrase 'There is no God but Him', the letter of negation precedes that of affirmation. Therefore as a result of the creative influence of this phrase, ever since it was revealed, the violators of the Cause of God, representing the letter of negation, dominated over the faithful in the past. All the sufferings which the hands of the breakers of the Covenant of God inflicted upon the steadfast Muslims and their apparent superiority, were the fulfilment of the Words uttered by Muhammad. God had, through His wisdom, so destined that those who were impure and rebellious should dominate those who were true and sincere.... "

"... Referring to the fore-mentioned phrase 'There is no God but Him', Bahá'u'lláh, in the Tablet of Salmán, proclaims in majestic and powerful language that He has removed the letter of negation which had been placed before that of affirmation. This phrase, which the Prophet of Islám, through His all-encompassing wisdom, regarded to be the cornerstone of His Faith, is now, in the Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh, symbolically replaced by the affirmative phrase 'He is God', signifying that the Revealer of the Cause of God holds within His hands the reins of authority, and, unlike the Dispensations of the past, no one has the power to wrest it from Him. The violators and the breakers of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant, as history has shown, have been utterly impotent to introduce divisions within His Faith, to arrest its onward march or influence its glorious destiny.... "

So it is from this following passage of the writings of the Bab, that has given us much to consider. I see we one and all still struggle to understand the Station of the Messenger, we now know they are not God in Essence, but I think this passage tells us that the Messenger is all we will ever know about God.

Read it here: https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/tb/SWB/swb-2.html

Extract

"....... He is the Most Glorious.
HE is God, no God is there but Him, the Almighty, the Best Beloved. All that are in the heavens and on the earth and whatever lieth between them are His. Verily He is the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.
This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony...... "

Regards Tony

Regards Tony
 
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The Bride of Jesus Christ is the Overcomers in the Book of Revelation - The Five Wise Virgins.
The Whore are the Death-Cults of Christianity - The Five Foolish Virgins.

The Bride shall be Immortal.
The Whore will be taken to the morgue.
 
Michael BoryAlis said:
The Bride of Jesus Christ is the Overcomers in the Book of Revelation - The Five Wise Virgins.
The Whore are the Death-Cults of Christianity - The Five Foolish Virgins.

The Bride shall be Immortal.
The Whore will be taken to the morgue.
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Heh....I've not seen that slant of an interpretation before. Kind of interesting...
 
Michael BoryAlis said:
The Bride of Jesus Christ is the Overcomers in the Book of Revelation - The Five Wise Virgins.
The Whore are the Death-Cults of Christianity - The Five Foolish Virgins.

The Bride shall be Immortal.
The Whore will be taken to the morgue.
Click to expand...

1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’

7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’
12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

- Matthew 25 -

Indeed, "the oil" is very precious. It is religious knowledge.
 
muhammad_isa said:
1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’

7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’
12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

- Matthew 25 -

Indeed, "the oil" is very precious. It is religious knowledge.
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People with religious knowledge are dying every day.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
Well, yes. We cannot possess religious knowledge without Him :)
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Makes one wonder then, why people that claim to know God, and have attained supposed Gnosis, are dead, like all beasts of the field.
I see Blavatsky is acclaimed here amongst some, yet she also is dead.

Why? No true illumination at the Third Radiance level.
 
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