Did Jesus Die On The Cross?

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Afternoon @Grandad.


An admirable man.


When I first stumbled across the Traditionalists, he was a light in the darkness. I read his works and found his writing 'luminous'. I lent a book to a close friend, who gave it back and said, "I don't understand a single world of it" – and we had great theological debates!

I understood something of the resonance of language then. I became steeped in the Traditionalists' writings, to the point when I could spot a Trad after reading a few lines. (I once found a piece of writing that 'reeked' of the Trad flavour, only to discover that I had written it, years before ... :D)

René Guénon – a great friend of Lings – is a much more excoriating commentator. His metaphysic is rigorous and clean, indeed perhaps spotless – but there is no apparent warmth, although I am in no doubt he possessed it in abundance. His was the eye of a laser.

It came as no surprise to me that these men, Europeans, went separate ways. Guénon lived anonymously in a little house in Cairo, spent his days in study, correspondence and prayer. None of his neighbours knew who he was, or the influence he had. He was an exemplar of humility – forgive me if I do not know the correct Arabic for such an admirable virtue.

Schuon went to America and founded his own Tariqah, and that became embroiled in a scandal regarding sexual misconduct. I do not know the full story – I met and conversed with his publisher, James Wetmore of Sophia Perennis Press – but he was protective of Schuon's reputation. Wetmore told me that in conversation with the English composer John Taverner, he was told Taverner believed he was channeling Schuon.

Tavener was of the Russian Orthodox Church, and drawn to the Traditionalist viewpoint. The Protecting Veil, and the later The Veil of the Temple are profound works. He's probably most famous for Song for Athene, performed at the funeral of Princess Diana.

(An essay by another Trad, Marco Pallis, a Tibetan Buddhist, was indirectly responsible for my recovering my Catholic faith – the Lord indeed moves in mysterious ways!)

God bless.


Good morning, Thomas.

Many thanks for introducing two folk I've not read before. I now have two of Schuon's books, and a raft of Guénon's (the latter as PDFs). Looking forward to reading and learning! Again, many thanks.

Have a great day, and very best regards. Blessings.
 
Thank you. A fair translation.....but no reference to the crucifixion.

In what way does Pliny support the Gospel narratives?

Peace.
He supports the eucharistic practice and also the singing of hymns to Christ 'as if to a God' -- true he does not mention the crucifixion, as Tacitus does, but the whole letter supports their belief in the gospel narratives.

It is evidence.

Early Christians were distinct; they were not a Jewish Yeshua cult.

Also at the end of the letter Pliny remarks that attendance at Roman temples had been dropping radically on account of the spread of Christianity -- until Trajan began persecuting them?

IMO of course if they believed and practiced the eucharist and sang hymns to Christ as if he were a God -- that they also believed in the death on the cross, and in all probability the ressurrection too.

Far more likely that they did, than did not?

Peace to you too
 
Your whole previous argument has been that early Christians believed the death in the cross, but mistakenly?

Yes, but not right from the outset.
I don't believe that the early Jerusalem church believed that his apparent death was significant
i.e. that Jesus was divine / God, and it was central to their belief

They were Jews who believed that he was the Messiah / Christ.
Christianity evolved to become what it is today. You mention the Eucharist.
That is not connected to what happened when he was arrested due to the sanhedrin plotting to have him killed.

The earliest extant written account of a Christian eucharistia (Greek: thanksgiving) is that in the First Epistle to the Corinthians (around AD 55), in which Paul the Apostle relates "eating the bread and drinking the cup of the Lord" in the celebration of a "Supper of the Lord" to the Last Supper of Jesus some 25 years earlier. Paul considers that in celebrating the rite they were fulfilling a mandate to do so.
-wiki-

Hmm .. Paul is not Jesus, yet Christians follow Paul..
It seems that he is responsible for much innovation.
That does not make him satan.

Islam is also full of innovation.
Both religions have the same root .. the shema.
Putting emphasis on tenets that were started by non-prophets means that they are often dubious.

I am always hearing that such-and-such a shaikh gives permission for innovative worship/belief.
..so does Paul have authority from God? No .. not at all. Paul is responsible for the spread of faith to non-Jews.
Faith in the non-Jewish community evolved into orthodox Christianity.

We can debate the fine details until the cows come home.
The roots are important. Jesus did not start a new religion. He came to correct the old one,
but the Jewish elders [ sanhedrin ] despised him.


The Qur'an contains the truth. Yet many people don't like truth, as they wish to continue in what they are doing,
and have no wish to change their lives.

i.e. they want to continue believing that they are saved purely by "faith in Jesus dying on a cross", and not by
their changing their lives by following law.
 
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I don't believe that the early Jerusalem church believed that his apparent death was significant
Why do you not believe his apostles and close followers did not find his death on the cross significant?
 
You mention the Eucharist.
That is not connected to what happened when he was arrested due to the sanhedrin plotting to have him killed.
Of course not. You're not familiar enough with the gospels to lecture Christians about their belief. Christ instituted the eucharist at the last supper, just before his arrest

etc, etc
 
Why do you not believe his apostles and close followers did not find his death on the cross significant?

Ummmm .. perhaps because it wasn't the last time that they saw him :D

Did they think that he was God? No, but they were surprised to see him.
I most certainly don't think that Jesus said "Don't be surprised to see me. I'm God" :D

Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have
(Luke 24:39).

Generally speaking. there's not much of a record of what Jesus told the people that he met after "he rose again".
God knows best why that may be.
 
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Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have
(Luke 24:39).
You'll take the parts of the gospels that suit you, but reject the last supper?

There's not much of a record Jesus did not die on the cross, imo. Just a vast conspiracy theory constructed around one line in the Quran.

Can we leave it now?
 
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You have considerably edited your post after I had already posted my replies. The depraved practices of early Christians obviously refers to their perceived cannibalism, going on before Paul wrote about it. Paul did not institute the eucharist. It was already there with the apostles who had attended the last supper.

It's just an unlikely and complicated conspiracy theory. It has NO basis.
 
..a vast conspiracy theory constructed around one line in the Quran..

There's a lot more to it than "one verse" ..
Both Jesus and Muhammad [ peace be with them ] worshipped God Almighty.

17 And as he is going forth into the way, one having run and having kneeled to him, was questioning him, `Good teacher, what may I do, that life age-during I may inherit?'
18 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;
-Mark-

No person should be "kneeled to" or "bowed to" ..
Only God is worthy of worship.

21 And Jesus having looked upon him, did love him, and said to him, `One thing thou dost lack; go away, whatever thou hast -- sell, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, be following me, having taken up the cross.'
-Mark-

What cross? What did that man know about a cross at the time he was questioning him?
..odd language to use .. I can't believe Jesus used those words.
 
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The significance of Jesus in Islam is reflected in his being mentioned in the Quran in 93 verses with various titles attached such as "Son of Mary", "Spirit of God", and the "Word of God", and other relational titles, mentioned directly and indirectly, over 187 times.
-wiki-

My point is that NOWHERE in the Qur'an is Jesus portrayed as being divine due to him being resurrected.
Hence, he did not die by default :)
 
My point is that NOWHERE in the Qur'an is Jesus portrayed as being divine due to him being resurrected.
Hence, he did not die by default
Why should it matter what it says nowhere in the Quran? 600 years after the events of Jesus's life? The New Testament disagrees.

EDIT:
Ok, ok ... let's say why should unbiased observer favour one or the other?
 
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That's the end. There's nowhere else to go with it. The crucifixion is attested historically and was believed in by the earliest Christians. The rest is a conspiracy theory, imo

edited ...
 
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let's take St. Stephen, often named as the first Christian martyr.

They dragged him to appear before the Sanhedrin, the supreme legal court of Jewish elders, accusing him of preaching against the Temple and the Mosaic Law.[Acts 6:9–14] Stephen is said to have been unperturbed, his face looking like "that of an angel"
...
Stephen recounts the stories of the patriarchs in some depth, and goes into even more detail in the case of Moses. God appeared to Moses in the burning bush,[Acts 7:30–32] and inspired Moses to lead his people out of Egypt. Nevertheless, the Israelites turned to other gods.[Acts 7:39–43] This establishes the second main theme of Stephen's speech, Israel's disobedience to God. Stephen faced two accusations: that he had declared that Jesus would destroy the Temple in Jerusalem and that he had changed the customs of Moses. Benedict XVI stated that St. Stephen appealed to the Jewish scriptures to prove how the laws of Moses were not subverted by Jesus but, instead, were being fulfilled.
St Stephen's speech in full (my red) -- ie: Stephen said they had killed Jesus, and prayed to Jesus as he died.

Stephen’s Speech to the Sanhedrin

7 Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?”

2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran. 3 ‘Leave your country and your people,’ God said, ‘and go to the land I will show you.’

4 “So he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Harran. After the death of his father, God sent him to this land where you are now living.5 He gave him no inheritance here, not even enough ground to set his foot on. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child.6 God spoke to him in this way: ‘For four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated.7 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,’ God said, ‘and afterward they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.’8 Then he gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.

“Because the patriarchs were jealous of Joseph, they sold him as a slave into Egypt. But God was with him 10 and rescued him from all his troubles. He gave Joseph wisdom and enabled him to gain the goodwill of Pharaoh king of Egypt. So Pharaoh made him ruler over Egypt and all his palace.

11 “Then a famine struck all Egypt and Canaan, bringing great suffering, and our ancestors could not find food. 12 When Jacob heard that there was grain in Egypt, he sent our forefathers on their first visit. 13 On their second visit, Joseph told his brothers who he was, and Pharaoh learned about Joseph’s family. 14 After this, Joseph sent for his father Jacob and his whole family, seventy-five in all. 15 Then Jacob went down to Egypt, where he and our ancestors died. 16 Their bodies were brought back to Shechem and placed in the tomb that Abraham had bought from the
tomb that Abraham had bought from the sons of Hamor at Shechem for a certain sum of money.

17 “As the time drew near for God to fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased. 18 Then ‘a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt.’ 19 He dealt treacherously with our people and oppressed our ancestors by forcing them to throw out their newborn babies so that they would die.

20 “At that time Moses was born, and he was no ordinary child. For three months he was cared for by his family. 21 When he was placed outside, Pharaoh’s daughter took him and brought him up as her own son. 22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.

“When Moses was forty years old, he decided to visit his own people, the Israelites. 24 He saw one of them being mistreated by an Egyptian, so he went to his defense and avenged him by killing the Egyptian. 25 Moses thought that his own people would realize that God was using him to rescue them, but they did not. 26 The next day Moses came upon two Israelites who were fighting. He tried to reconcile them by saying, ‘Men, you are brothers; why do you want to hurt each other?’

27 “But the man who was mistreating the other pushed Moses aside and said, ‘Who made you ruler and judge over us? 28 Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian yesterday?’ 29 When Moses heard this, he fled to Midian, where he settled as a foreigner and had two sons.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai

When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say: 32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’ Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.

33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’

35 “This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.

This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’ 38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.

39 “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. 40 They told Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don’t know what has happened to him!’ 41 That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made. 42 But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets:

‘Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?
43 You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek
and the star of your god Rephan,
the idols you made to worship.
Therefore I will send you into exile’ beyond Babylon.

44 “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen. 45 After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David, 46 who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob. 47 But it was Solomon who built a house for him.

However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

49 “‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
50 Has not my hand made all these things?’

51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

The Stoning of Stephen

When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 7&version=NIV

You can't get earlier than the first Christian .martyr in Jesusalem, while Paul/Saul held the coats of those who stoned him?

Have to stop here ...
 
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Very deep thinking there so much happen in those times, for me I have read Jesus died at A stake not A cross.
 
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Very deep thinking there so much happen in those times, for me I have read Jesus died at A stake not A cross.
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that, because they regard the cross as a pagan sun symbol? Crucifixion was the Roman method. Spartacus and around 6000 other rebel slaves were crucified along the Appian way by Graccus ...
 
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The New Testament disagrees..

Who is the "New Testament"?
..not Jesus.

Both you and Thomas consider the Qur'an written by either a mad-man, or a clever trickster.
You are entitled to your opinion.

God most surely knows why we differ in our creeds.
You keep bringing up this subject, and I have written 100's of posts about The Roman state and how they shaped
Modern Christianity.
..yet you cling on to tradition .. most people do .. they don't like change.

The purpose of a creed is to provide a doctrinal statement of correct belief. The creeds of Christianity have been drawn up at times of conflict about doctrine: acceptance or rejection of a creed served to distinguish believers and heretics.
...
The Nicene Creed was adopted to resolve the Arian controversy,

-wiki-

Oh, not that again, they say. :mad:
 
Both you and Thomas consider the Qur'an written by either a mad-man, or a clever trickster.
How do you get to that, from the fact I do not believe the Quran to be innerrantly true? I am careful to try to protect my address and details here, to avoid retribution from Muslim extremists encouraged by words like you have used, my friend.
 
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