The Laws of Moses......... perfect for their time.

[badger]

You know, even as a strong atheist and metaphysical naturalist, I retain more-or-less the same general asceticism I had when I was a practicing Gnostic.

I'm still a vegetarian. I still abstain from recreational drug use and alcohol, I'm still celibate, and even though I am starting to have more access to money it's through honest means and I use most of it to develop skills that will help me help other people.

I do relax a bit more. I'm no longer burdened with a metaphysical need to be as perfect as possible, but my "relaxing" is mostly me doing just that - sitting or laying somewhere and intentionally relaxing my body. I don't know anywhere where that's considered a sin.

However, I do recognize what @muhammad_isa is talking about here. I know quite a few people who are individualistic hedonists, who either don't care about other people or only care about the people they like.

Indeed, individualism and hedonism are some of the most popular secular philosophies in Western culture; even those who self-identify with ascetic religions seem to frequently be caught up in it.

Personally, the secular philosophies I adhere to are Welfarist Utilitarianism and Modern Stoicism, so I still tend to be fairly motivated to help other people and remain ascetic. I don't fit the stereotype, but I can see why it is a concern for some people.

Then you are a healthy person, I think.

About @muhammad_isa 's post, I notice that he suggested that I break some laws because I believe that the 613 laws were written by men. thus:-
eating pork, drinking alcohol to excess, casual sexual relationships, getting wealthy from the exploitation of others

I laughed at the insult because we live in the least expensive domestic freehold property on the entire North Kent Coastline.... we often laugh when looking in estate agent's windows. No exploitation nof others from us...etc etc

But my other thought was:- @muhammad_isa you picked 4 laws. Do you absolutely obey all the others...... 609 of them?

 

[Cino]

Are you telling that the Israelites, out in the wastes after the exodus, were no a strong body of people held together by the laws of Moses?

I'm interested in those laws and how they worked, not how it all fell apart later on.....everything falls apart later on.

The Mixed Multitudes were there at the very beginning, they followed Moses along with the Children of Israel, according to Exodus. I find this interesting, and want to discuss how this sits with the commandment you cited, about not intermarrying with non-Israelites. NB this is the very time period you are interested in.

Edited to add: What makes you think the commandments "fell apart"? There are Jews living in both your and my and many other countries, they even make websites listing the commandments, and some are known to frequent this forum.

Please pick a law which might interest you and we'll have an interesting discussion about that, and any others you choose.

Done, see above, about various forms of magic and divination.

 

[badger]

The Mixed Multitudes were there at the very beginning, they followed Moses along with the Children of Israel, according to Exodus. I find this interesting, and want to discuss how this sits with the commandment you cited...

I did not cite deut 7:3. You did
But you didn't actually quote deut 7:3 , so could we see the whole of it, it may even be repeating a former law since Deuteronomy is mostly a second reading. That's what it means.
So could we see all of this law please?

For myself I think that on evany followers had joined with the Israelites then they would have been cut and begun to wear the clothes and hair of Israelites. They became Israelites.
But that's just what I think.

But that's what the laws show, that everybody became as one.
I think thats how it was.

 

[Cino]

I'm still not sure I understand you. Do you think it was about the "stock" or about the commandments, during exodus? What about the health concerns, or the deadly dangers of outsiders you mention? Genetics or culture? Just trying to understand you, not criticising.

I asked a question to see if you would answer.....
Ruth was of Israelite stock..... not an outsider.
And she was obeying the laws of Moses in gleaning from the fields.
Boaz was of Israelite stock and a land-holder.

Ah yes...... Closed marriage within the twelve tribes, not needed today but absolutely essential back then. Back then any outsider could bring death to the whole of the community in time. Too risky.

I read you to mean genetics in the above? but the below indicates culture? But then what about these health threats?

For myself I think that on evany followers had joined with the Israelites then they would have been cut and begun to wear the clothes and hair of Israelites. They became Israelites.
But that's just what I think.

But that's what the laws show, that everybody became as one.
I think thats how it was.

I just don't see how you make these two very different views fit together.

But it's not that important. Let's move on?

 

[RabbiO]

But my other thought was:- @muhammad_isa you picked 4 laws. Do you absolutely obey all the others...... 609 of them?

I presume you were asking @muhammad_isa a trick question, that you are aware that no one person can possibly observe each and every one of the taryag mitzvot. There are, for example, mitzvot that apply only to women, other mitzvot applicable only to men.

I presume, as well, that you are aware although it has become the most often cited, the list compiled by Maimonides is not the only such list. There is no one list that can be called THE list of taryag mitzvot. According to the Talmud Rabbi Simlai determined the number of mitzvot, but there is no list attributed to him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

About @muhammad_isa 's post, I notice that he suggested that I break some laws because I believe that the 613 laws were written by men. thus:-
eating pork, drinking alcohol to excess, casual sexual relationships, getting wealthy from the exploitation of others

I laughed at the insult because we live in the least expensive domestic freehold property on the entire North Kent Coastline.... we often laugh when looking in estate agent's windows. No exploitation nof others from us...etc etc

But my other thought was:- @muhammad_isa you picked 4 laws. Do you absolutely obey all the others...... 609 of them?

I was making a general observation about people in general.
Many "religious" people scorn others for their sins, but don't recognise the sins they do as being important.

Do I consider myself a "religious" person? Yes.
Do I observe everything that I should observe? No.

There are major sins and minor sins. Many people are not aware of that in the West.

 

[RJM]

There are major sins and minor sins. Many people are not aware of that in the West.

Catholics are aware of mortal sins and venial sins

IMO There are sins (that harm ourselves or others) and then there are lots of religious and tribal taboos

I don't believe the force that moves and upholds infinite galaxies is concerned with what type of animals humans eat, or with what style of dress they wear as entry requirements to paradise.

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
(Matt 15:10-11)

All the different religious uniforms and rituals ...

 

[badger]

I'm still not sure I understand you. Do you think it was about the "stock" or about the commandments, during exodus? What about the health concerns, or the deadly dangers of outsiders you mention? Genetics or culture? Just trying to understand you, not criticising.

I read you to mean genetics in the above? but the below indicates culture? But then what about these health threats?

I just don't see how you make these two very different views fit together.

But it's not that important. Let's move on?

Of course.....we can move on.
But through this conversation I have learned that there were no outsiders amongst the children of Israel during or after the Exodus.
They were all as one, because any and all 'outsiders' were brought in to the whole, obeying their laws, being as one of them. Thus:-
{12:43} And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: {12:44} But every man’s servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. {12:45} A foreigner and an hired servant shall
not eat thereof. {12:46} In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. {12:47} All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. {12:48} And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover
to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

....all became the children of Israel, just as mostly anyone can become a Jew today. And these are the laws that all obeyed, together, as one. Thus:-

All males circumsized Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3
All would wear the same clothing Num. 15:38
All word show the word of God on head and arm Deut. 6:8
All males would keep their beard....etc etc.....

I have learned something from this.

17.To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3)
18.To put fringes on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38)
19.To bind God's Word on the head (Deut. 6:8)
20.To bind God's Word on the arm (Deut. 6:8)

 

[badger]

I presume you were asking @muhammad_isa a trick question, that you are aware that no one person can possibly observe each and every one of the taryag mitzvot. There are, for example, mitzvot that apply only to women, other mitzvot applicable only to men.

I presume, as well, that you are aware although it has become the most often cited, the list compiled by Maimonides is not the only such list. There is no one list that can be called THE list of taryag mitzvot. According to the Talmud Rabbi Simlai determined the number of mitzvot, but there is no list attributed to him.

Hello RabbiO
No tricks........ Muhammad can answer for himself.... yes?
These laws, as shown in the KJV and other bibles, are quite wonderful, ideal back then for the formation of a secure, safe, strong, cohesive people.
Or do you disagree?

 

[badger]

I was making a general observation about people in general.
Many "religious" people scorn others for their sins, but don't recognise the sins they do as being important.

Fair enough muhammad. OK.

Do I consider myself a "religious" person? Yes.
Do I observe everything that I should observe? No.

Thank you for your candour, muhammad, for myself I obey the laws of my land but if I take a chance and park my scooter in a cycle bay then I shall sleep easy in bed......... as long as I get away with it.

There are major sins and minor sins. Many people are not aware of that in the West.

Here's your chance, I reckon. You showed a list of four laws bust, or four sins, thus:-
.............eating pork, drinking alcohol to excess, casual sexual relationships, getting wealthy from the exploitation of others............
Which of these do you consider to be major sins?
After the Exodus eating the flesh of Omnivores was risky, because they are more likely to consume badness....poisons.
Drinking alcohol to excess can cause blood poisoning.
Casual sex can spread bad sickness, poisoning a whole group of people.
Gaining at the expense of others is poison, it destroys the cohesion of the people.

Would you like to select from small sins and some major sins from the laws of Moses for us?
Would you like to select some laws that were not particularly necessary?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't believe the force that moves and upholds infinite galaxies is concerned with what type of animals humans eat, or with what style of dress they wear as entry requirements to paradise.

G-d is concerned about each and every one of us.
It is not about "entry requirements", but about what is good for our souls and what is not.

Drinking blood is not good for the soul, for example ..and immodest dressing is not either.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Here's your chance, I reckon. You showed a list of four laws bust, or four sins, thus:-
.............eating pork, drinking alcohol to excess, casual sexual relationships, getting wealthy from the exploitation of others............
Which of these do you consider to be major sins?

Wiki is a good source of knowledge..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_sin

Adultery, murder and financial corruption [ making a living through lending money, for example ]
are all considered major sins.

 

[Cino]

I presume, as well, that you are aware although it has become the most often cited, the list compiled by Maimonides is not the only such list. There is no one list that can be called THE list of taryag mitzvot. According to the Talmud Rabbi Simlai determined the number of mitzvot, but there is no list attributed to him.

Interesting, thanks, Rabbi! If different derivations of the lists of commandments exist, are there also different explanations of the meaning or reason of individual commandments?

Also, one thing I've been puzzling over ever since reading the bible as a teenager: How are the commandments prohibiting the creation of sacred images of earthly/heavenly beings brought in line with things like the cherubs on the ark of the covenant? I'm interested in the explanation, not trying to be a smart alec.

 

[Ella S.]

I presume you were asking @muhammad_isa a trick question, that you are aware that no one person can possibly observe each and every one of the taryag mitzvot. There are, for example, mitzvot that apply only to women, other mitzvot applicable only to men.

I presume, as well, that you are aware although it has become the most often cited, the list compiled by Maimonides is not the only such list. There is no one list that can be called THE list of taryag mitzvot. According to the Talmud Rabbi Simlai determined the number of mitzvot, but there is no list attributed to him.

Aren't some of them impossible to observe now because they require a Temple, too?

 

[badger]

Wiki is a good source of knowledge..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_sin

Adultery, murder and financial corruption [ making a living through lending money, for example ]
are all considered major sins.

You have placed adultery and murder beside each other as major sins, could you now show me a couple of minor ones, please?
As far as lending money, nearly half of all my country would be on the street if lending money was banned. Mortgages are lined by people who make a living from lending money. What do you think about that?

 

[muhammad_isa]

could you now show me a couple of minor ones, please?

Acting the goat? Being mean to others..

As far as lending money, nearly half of all my country would be on the street if lending money was banned..

That's untrue. The system would be different, and that's all.

However, the London banks were effectively started by the Goldsmiths, and then govt. made it illegal to print money when they realised the corruption that was going on.
i.e. they made any financial manipulation/fraud only legal by govt.

It spread around the world.

In the time of Alfred the Great, our most pious Christian King in England, usury was outlawed.

 

[RabbiO]

Aren't some of them impossible to observe now because they require a Temple, too?

That is true as well.

 

[badger]

Aren't some of them impossible to observe now because they require a Temple, too?

Of course.......... do you think that I'm advocating all of those laws for today? They were perfect for their time, I think.

But others are absolutely essential today.

 

[Ella S.]

Of course.......... do you think that I'm advocating all of those laws for today? They were perfect for their time, I think.

But others are absolutely essential today.

I do not think you are advocating for all of the laws today, no, merely trying to corroborate my own understanding of some of the details surrounding them.

This is completely irrelevant to the thread and might date it if either of us ever change our avatars, but I find it interesting how our pictures are foils of one another. While both of our pictures showcase a light-source on a colored background with a cluster of other objects, your picture contains warm colors and organic imagery whereas mine contains cool colors and artificial imagery.

I find it fascinating that the symbolism of the pictures essentially serve as foils to one another. Apologies for the aside, I just felt compelled to mention it at some point.

 

[badger]

Acting the goat? Being mean to others..

More than one law bans meanness to others, it would have broken down cohesion in the people which reduces security and safety.
Exodus 22:21 is one example

That's untrue. The system would be different, and that's all.

Interesting idea.
How would you start a return to a World without financial extensions?

However, the London banks were effectively started by the Goldsmiths, and then govt. made it illegal to print money when they realised the corruption that was going on.
i.e. they made any financial manipulation/fraud only legal by govt.

It spread around the world.

Interesting opinion.
Obviously the children of Israel were banned from lending at interest because people would come unstuck on the deal, be unable to pay back.

The poor laws demanded that all debts be cleared after 7 years in any case, lenders couldn't keep debtor's tools etc, and a person in need could not be refused financial assistance.
The law that insisted that nobody could be allowed to suffer poverty was brilliant.
These poor laws ensured that everybody would be kept together, as one, in a cohesive community.

I'll post up a list of poor laws after this, just in case anybody is interested in these.

In the time of Alfred the Great, our most pious Christian King in England, usury was outlawed.

Ah, Alfred the Great, King of Wessex, yes, he did use money of course, paid the Vikings to hold them off at different times.
He struck coinage in silver and may have devalued the silver content in coins to stretch and increase his purchasing power, or so I've read.