The Laws of Moses......... perfect for their time.

[Cino]

Concern for their survival.......? No.. a very fine endeavour.
Stopping a couple from partnership, marriage etc because of any bloodline interruption......... yes..... people should have the absolute right to pick their partners and where barriers are put up then families just get busted....... very sad.

Agreed!

 

[Cino]

I asked a question to see if you would answer.....
Ruth was of Israelite stock..... not an outsider.
And she was obeying the laws of Moses in gleaning from the fields.
Boaz was of Israelite stock and a land-holder.

The text says she was Moabite, I think. The Moabite kingdom was frequently at war with the Israelite kingdom(s), according to the historical texts in the Bible. At least that's how I read these texts.

And no, the story does not take place during the Exodus narrative. Why do you ask? People have been trying to make the commandments work for a few millennia now, why should one particular period be singled out?

 

[badger]

The text says she was Moabite, I think. The Moabite kingdom was frequently at war with the Israelite kingdom(s), according to the historical texts in the Bible. At least that's how I read these texts.

Yes.... Sure. The Moabites, although a Semitic people had separated away before the Exodus and worshipped another God.

And no, the story does not take place during the Exodus narrative. Why do you ask? People have been trying to make the commandments work for a few millennia now, why should one particular period be singled out?

Because humans break down the best social constructs. Usually it's corruption caused by greed, status, envy, etc leading to corruption which is exactly what had happened to the Temple and Priesthood in the time of Jesus.
It's time that seems to wear down the best initiatives.
That Carl Marx's model could have led to a leader like Stalin isn't a bad example, I think.

Boaz bust a rule intended to keep his people free from sickness imo. But it can't trash a previously brilliant initiative.

 

[badger]

{12:3} And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Brilliant!
Such simple common sense.....
After all the clever answers, the religious meanings, the medical arguments............ simple common sense.

There was no way that any intruder, nor spy, nor assassin could possibly evade such a final identity inspection.

Massively secure and safe......plus all those medical, theological and any other answers.

 

[Cino]

Boaz bust a rule intended to keep his people free from sickness imo. But it can't trash a previously brilliant initiative.

So you see it as a decline from a "golden age" ideal state of affairs?

 

[badger]

So you see it as a decline from a "golden age" ideal state of affairs?

Ruth was living and finding food within the laws of Moses, so in that respect she was part of that community.
I don't think her marriage to Boaz was too far outside the laws, but after the Exodus while the Israelites were travelling, I don't suppose that this would have been accepted. What do you think?

 

[Cino]

Ruth was living and finding food within the laws of Moses, so in that respect she was part of that community.
I don't think her marriage to Boaz was too far outside the laws, but after the Exodus while the Israelites were travelling, I don't suppose that this would have been accepted. What do you think?

I agree that the story of Ruth and the accound of the Exodus are about very different communities. But, as portrayed in the Bible, in both cases they tried to keep the commandments, as do people today. Is there a single right way to do it? I don't think so. (Disclaimer: I'm not Jewish)

But I don't want to derail your thread.

 

[badger]

I agree that the story of Ruth and the accound of the Exodus are about very different communities. But, as portrayed in the Bible, in both cases they tried to keep the commandments, as do people today. Is there a single right way to do it? I don't think so. (Disclaimer: I'm not Jewish)

But I don't want to derail your thread.

I think that the Israelites did have a single way to do it, yes.
Their survival depended upon living and breathing as one.

How folks strayed and messed up those laws later is the perfect example of how they then failed, which is what happened, but those laws back then in that situation were just amazing.

But that doesn't mean that I would support them all now.

 

[Cino]

I think that the Israelites did have a single way to do it, yes.
Their survival depended upon living and breathing as one.

How folks strayed and messed up those laws later is the perfect example of how they then failed, which is what happened, but those laws back then in that situation were just amazing.

But that doesn't mean that I would support them all now.

Goes without saying, I was not implying that.

By the way, I think Exodus mentions that a number of people who were not Children of Israel left Egypt and followed Moses? At least that's how I understand Exodus 12:38.

 

[badger]

Goes without saying, I was not implying that.

I completely understand, and I just just speaking for myself.

By the way, I think Exodus mentions that a number of people who were not Children of Israel left Egypt and followed Moses? At least that's how I understand Exodus 12:38.

If they were 'in' then I expect that they were 'in', a part of the whole.
And I'll bet that all who were 'in' were expected to keep those laws.

 

[Cino]

I completely understand, and I just just speaking for myself.


If they were 'in' then I expect that they were 'in', a part of the whole.
And I'll bet that all who were 'in' were expected to keep those laws.

Me too. Do you still think these laws were about some form of genetic purity?

 

[muhammad_isa]

If they were 'in' then I expect that they were 'in', a part of the whole.
And I'll bet that all who were 'in' were expected to keep those laws.

The OT is not accurate.
It is an old text that has been revised many times over the years.

Jesus himself complained about the Rabbi's corruption [ eg. money changers in the temple ], and the Qur'an confirms it.
I won't go into any more detail other than saying that the 613 mitzvots in the Torah are highly unlikely to be all from G-d.

 

[badger]

The OT is not accurate.
It is an old text that has been revised many times over the years.

Not bad for its age, methinks.

Jesus himself complained about the Rabbi's corruption [ eg. money changers in the temple ], and the Qur'an confirms it.

There weren't Rabbi's in the Great Temple, but Priests. However, we are discussing the Laws of Moses at the time of the Israelites travels, after the Exodus.

I won't go into any more detail other than saying that the 613 mitzvots in the Torah are highly unlikely to be all from G-d.

Excellent! Agreed, but I would go a bit further and suggest that they were all from the minds of men, an unbelievable achievement in producing a blueprint for a successful nation.

 

[badger]

Me too. Do you still think these laws were about some form of genetic purity?

Yes...... the only way that decease and sickness could be kept out was through strict observance of all those laws.
The laws promoted closed marriage, fast reproduction and health, leading to strength and success. Oh, and cohesion....everybody counted and had a place regardless of ability or disability.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I would go a bit further and suggest that they were all from the minds of men, an unbelievable achievement in producing a blueprint for a successful nation.

Well there you go..
You just can't accept that there is none greater than "the minds of men".

I see that the "phenomena" that is responsible for the existence of the universe and everything it contains
is greater than mankind, and knows what is good for our souls..
..individually, and collectively.

Naturally, many people would rather follow what they wish,
particularly leaving the things that don't suit them for some reason.
eg. eating pork, drinking alcohol to excess, casual sexual relationships, getting wealthy from the exploitation of others etc.

 

[badger]

Well there you go..
You just can't accept that there is none greater than "the minds of men".

Wrong. That's presumption.
I have no idea what levels of intelligence exist out in this universe, let alone any others.

I see that the "phenomena" that is responsible for the existence of the universe and everything it contains
is greater than mankind, and knows what is good for our souls..
..individually, and collectively.

Well it took its time in deciding about us, yes? 13+ billion years?
I believe that we are here out of chaos, Muhammad.

Naturally, many people would rather follow what they wish,
particularly leaving the things that don't suit them for some reason.
eg. eating pork, drinking alcohol to excess, casual sexual relationships, getting wealthy from the exploitation of others etc.

Ha ha! And do you believe that I am steeped in all those?
That's funny.

 

[Cino]

The laws promoted closed marriage, fast reproduction and health, leading to strength and success.

But then what about the mixed multitudes?

I get it that you like your idea about a tighly organized endogamous confederation of tribes, described in the books of Moses. But pretending the loose ends aren't there won't make them go away.

 

[Ella S.]

Ha ha! And do you believe that I am steeped in all those?
That's funny.

You know, even as a strong atheist and metaphysical naturalist, I retain more-or-less the same general asceticism I had when I was a practicing Gnostic.

I'm still a vegetarian. I still abstain from recreational drug use and alcohol, I'm still celibate, and even though I am starting to have more access to money it's through honest means and I use most of it to develop skills that will help me help other people.

I do relax a bit more. I'm no longer burdened with a metaphysical need to be as perfect as possible, but my "relaxing" is mostly me doing just that - sitting or laying somewhere and intentionally relaxing my body. I don't know anywhere where that's considered a sin.

However, I do recognize what @muhammad_isa is talking about here. I know quite a few people who are individualistic hedonists, who either don't care about other people or only care about the people they like.

Indeed, individualism and hedonism are some of the most popular secular philosophies in Western culture; even those who self-identify with ascetic religions seem to frequently be caught up in it.

Personally, the secular philosophies I adhere to are Welfarist Utilitarianism and Modern Stoicism, so I still tend to be fairly motivated to help other people and remain ascetic. I don't fit the stereotype, but I can see why it is a concern for some people.

 

[Cino]

Numbers 335-345 from the list I posted above, prohibit various forms of sorcery and magic. I think something is lost here in translation, in English at least (and in German), these passages read very much alike, but in Hebrew, many different terms for magic and divination, the dead and their spirits are used.

My personal favorite by how it sounds is "khover khaver" (Deutl 18:11), which seems to be a kind of magic involving snakes or scorpions.

I don't know the Bible well enough to tell whether the confrontation between Aaron and Pharao's court magicians, where their staves turned to snakes battling it out, was an instance of khover khaver (at least on the part of Pharao's team).

Edited to add: It would be really interesting to have our Jewish forum members weigh in on this discussion. @RabbiO maybe?

 

[badger]

But then what about the mixed multitudes?

I get it that you like your idea about a tighly organized endogamous confederation of tribes, described in the books of Moses. But pretending the loose ends aren't there won't make them go away.

Are you telling that the Israelites, out in the wastes after the exodus, were no a strong body of people held together by the laws of Moses?

I'm interested in those laws and how they worked, not how it all fell apart later on.....everything falls apart later on.

Please pick a law which might interest you and we'll have an interesting discussion about that, and any others you choose.