What is the Baha'i message in simple words?

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Longfellow said:
Sorry. I corrected my post above. Instead of "What beliefs are people asking about when they say 'what do Baha'is believe about ..."' I should have said "Whose beliefs are people asking about when they say 'what do Baha'is believe about ...'"

Any answer you get from any Baha'i will not be what all Baha'is believe, and maybe not even what most Baha'is believe, and certainly not part of any official Baha'i theology because there isn't any official Baha'i theology.
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Thank you. Interesting.

Are the Baha’i beliefs not taken from the writings of Baha’u’llah then — as the Baha’i scripture, divine word of the infallible messenger? The Baha’i faith appear to have their own calendar and temples and feast days, etc. All the trappings of a religion?
 
Without its own theolopgy, it will not be a religion. Bahaollah's words are theology of Bahais. Allah himself communicated them to him. Not believing them will mean the person is not a Bahai. One cannot differ from what Allah's manifestation says.
 
RJM said:
Thank you. Interesting.

Are the Baha’i beliefs not taken from the writings of Baha’u’llah then — as the Baha’i scripture, divine word of the infallible messenger? The Baha’i faith appear to have their own calendar and temples and feast days, etc. All the trappings of a religion?
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I'll try with an example. Some Baha'is believe that same-sex relationships and marriages are prohibited by Baha'u'llah, and some believe that they aren't, based on their personal interpretations of Baha'i writings (or more often someone else's). There are some who think that homosexuality is a disease, and some who don't, based on their personal interpretations of Baha'i writings (or more often someone else's). There is currently no person or institution that has any authority to decide between them. What would you say is the Baha'i belief about homosexuality, and same-sex relationships and marriages? The same applies to all other questions about Baha'i beliefs.

To answer your question about the Trinity. Think of any belief that you've ever heard of about the Trinity. There are some Baha'is who believe that, and there is no Baha'i or Baha'i institution that has any authority to say that they are wrong.
 
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Aupmanyav said:
Bahaollah's words are theology of Bahais.
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Exactly. Apart from that, there are theologies that are promoted by Baha'is, but none of them is "the Baha'i theology." If theology is part of the definition of "religion," then there are as many Baha'i religions as there are Baha'is, not counting the theologies that other people project onto them.
 
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Longfellow said:
When I said "from the founders," I meant writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, explicitly about Buddha and his teachings.
Baha'i: That's because you aren't really following the teachings of your Manifestation, like we are.
It might be confusing and frustrating to people sometimes to think that Baha'is are saying that all religions are equal, (edited) and saying that theirs is the only one that is still pure and all the others have been grievously corrupted, at the same time. (end edit)
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Founder is Bahaollah. Abdul Baha cannot add or subtracts thing from what his father said.
That can be said of any Bahai too.
No. We know that is a sham, a subterfuge. Bahai views differ from all other religions. Don't talk about peace and brotherhood. They were not invented by Bahaollah. All religions claim that.
Ahanu said:
The oneness of religion is still defended. "This is the changeless Faith of God" and all that jazz. Not sure why you think attempting to reconcile the beliefs of various religious systems goes against that spirit.
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That is jazz only. Which God or Goddess? We have hundreds of them. God of Abraham is not one of them.Beliefs of all religions cannot be reconciled.
 
Longfellow said:
To answer your question about the Trinity. Think of any belief that you've ever heard of about the Trinity. There are some Baha'is who believe that, and there is no Baha'i or Baha'i institution that has any authority to say that they are wrong.
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But what did Baha’u’llah say about it? Would not that be the ‘official’ Baha’i standpoint? Would not the House of Justice uphold the written statement of Baha’u’llah?
 
Am logging off for tonight
 
Having read many Baha'i claims to unity, and their critique of previous religions for the lack of it, and reading @Longfellow, I was surprised to stumble on this:

"Bahá'í dissent in the 2000's
Bahá'í dissent in the 2000's can be read as a continuation of the "internet wars" of the late 1990's. At this time, the Bahá'í administration either pressured to resign, or actively disenrolled, a number of Bahá'í intellectuals associated with the online Talisman discussion list, for disagreeing with the received line on certain controversial issues. These included the faith's opposition to homosexuality (and the strained scriptural interpretation upon which the policy is based); the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice (the same observation applies here); the shunning of "covenant-breakers"; the requirement that any proposed publications on the faith be submitted to regional censorship boards ("Bahá'í review"); and an electoral system which favors incumbents... against which the dissidents invoke the equally core Bahá'í values of the independent investigation of truth, the elimination of all kinds of prejudice, the equality of men and women, and interreligious harmony... the rift between reforming liberals and pro-administration conservatives widened, amidst mutual accusations of betrayal."

Same old, same old ...
 
Longfellow said:
There is currently no person or institution that has any authority to decide between them. What would you say is the Baha'i belief about homosexuality, and same-sex relationships and marriages? The same applies to all other questions about Baha'i beliefs.
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That is false. What did Bahaollah said about it? That cannot be denied by any Bahai. That will be blasphemy. You have your House of Justice. Bahais are 'munafiq'. They can say whatever they like depending on the situation. If Bahaollah did not say anything, they will fall back on Abdul Baha, or Shoghi, or House of Justice, or on a translation of a new 'tablet'. They can easily change color.
 
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Longfellow said:
Exactly. Apart from that, there are theologies that are promoted by Baha'is, but none of them is "the Baha'i theology."
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If it is that, then there cannot be any deviation from Allah's own words. The people who do that are traitors to the 'covenant'.
 
RJM said:
Am logging off for tonight
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I have an idea for when you come back. I know a member of the Baha’i Faith who has been studying the Baha’i writings and what the Baha’i House of Justice has been promoting and trying to put those into practice for more than 50 years, along with other Baha’is in different communities in different parts of the world. I can ask them to read what Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha say about the Trinity, and tell you what they think. Let me know if that would interest you.
 
Obviously a person doesn’t even need to be a member of the Baha’i Faith or believe in Baha’u’llah at all, to make up a belief system different from anyone else’s and call it “Baha’i.” :)
 
Sorry I'm back to try to sort out the Baha'I attitude to the trinity:
I said:
Thanks @Ahanu

Baha’u’llah* rejects the (Christian) concept of the trinity — as basically ‘trivial and invalid’? No ifs or buts about it?

* Sorry I mean AbdulBaha
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First:
https://bahai-library.com/abdul-baha_tafsir_ayat_yuhanna

The concourse of the Gospel have presently fallen lost in the wilderness of error and purblindness and thus have considered as naught these assertions of the Gospel which are explicitly clear and without allusiveness. This concourse of Christians have clung to interpretations based on their own imaginings.

Thus they say that the purpose of the above verses is the descent of the Holy Spirit, the descent that occurred after the ascension of His holiness Christ upon the disciples. This is in truth the customary way of all peoples and religious communities in that they close their eyes to the strong and firm meanings of the divine verses and then they adhere to suppositional and dubious interpretations. Now you should consider how much their assertion is trivial and invalid:

Firstly. He sayeth: He shall not come unless I go away. This utterance indicates that He, the Spirit, the Comforter was not there at the time of Christ and that He would come afterwards. But the Holy Spirit was inseparably and always co-existing with Christ. So there would otherwise be no meaning to the saying: He shall not come unless I go away …

This is not the Christian Trinitarian take on the passage, which has received two thousand years of debate and consideration. Baha here dismisses two millennia of Christian thought, with a few casual words.

Next:

The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors-- one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit--that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality--that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes--became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied--for the Sun is one--but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.

In Baha's own opinion only.

This is the Muslim view. The Christian view is that God isn't subject to human judgements in his dealings. Again dismissing two thousand years of Christian thought in a few sentences. The point is, Trinitarian Christians do not accept this casual and Islamic Baha'i dismissal of their religious beliefs.

Or perhaps he is diplomatically working to fudge the issue. It’s not too certain what he means exactly, lol

Now I am logging off. Thanks for the input @Ahanu
Longfellow said:
I have an idea for when you come back. I know a member of the Baha’i Faith who has been studying the Baha’i writings and what the Baha’i House of Justice has been promoting and trying to put those into practice for more than 50 years, along with other Baha’is in different communities in different parts of the world. I can ask them to read what Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha say about the Trinity, and tell you what they think. Let me know if that would interest you.
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Ok ...

(edited)
 
RJM said:
This is a carry over from
Reading with New Eyes, Hearing with New Ears
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20268/

Are Baha'i spokesmen willing to depart from the normal practice of referring questions to Baha'i tracts and scriptures, and to try in their own words, to help people understand in open debate what their core belief is?

This thread can be removed, retitled or moved to another section, if anyone wants that?
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I'm not a Baha'i spokesperson, but I thought after posting so much in this thread, maybe I should say what I think about this question. I think that different Baha'is have different core beliefs, which can range as widely as they do in all of society, and I know one who says he has no beliefs at all. There isn't anyone who has any authority to decide for all Baha'is what they should believe. Maybe you would like to know how Baha'i institutions decide if a person is qualified for membership or not, but there aren't any actual rules for that. Only some things to consider, which are not about beliefs, and which are not always actually considered when people apply for membership. Sometimes all a person has to do is say that they recognize Baha'u'llah as God's messenger for today, sometimes not even that. No creed, no list of beliefs that a person has to say they believe. The things to consider, when they are considered, are about a person's understanding of the roles of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and Baha'i institutions in the Baha'i community, about their attitudes towards them, and about their understanding and acceptance of the responsibilities of membership.

Maybe you would like to know what Baha'u'llah says are the first two duties prescribed by God for His servants: First, "recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation." He says "Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." The second duty is "to observe every ordinance" of Baha'u'llah. He says that those two duties are inseparable, that neither is acceptable without the other. There is a wide range of understanding among Baha'is about it means to recognize Baha'u'llah, what He means by all that, and what His laws are; and no one with any authority to tell all Baha'is what to think, or to speak for all Baha'is in answering those questions.

(later) I've been trying to learn not to argue with people about their terminologies. If people want to call their personal belief system or someone else's "the Baha'i Faith," or even project an imaginary belief system onto some other people and call that "the Baha'i Faith," I don't think that there's anything I can do to change that, and I won't try. All I want to do is to inform people that there is a worldwide community of people with that same name, which is not about promoting or defending some belief system. It's about people working side by side in neighborhoods and villages all around the world, learning together to help make their community life healthier, happier and more friendly, for every person who lives in and around the community.
 
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There's some unfriendliness in my posts sometimes, and I'm sorry for that, and for dragging the discussion off topic. If I say any more, I’ll try to restrict it to my own personal understanding of what Baha’i writings say about a topic that’s being discussed, without trying to guess if that’s what anyone is asking for or not.
 
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Longfellow said:
First, "recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation." He says "Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." The second duty is "to observe every ordinance" of Baha'u'llah.
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But this has tremendous implications.
 
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