Yahweh kid
I am blessed!
Ok, if that makes you happy....
Yes He is..... but can you cheat the all knowing God?
Thoughts about Trinity beliefs
- Thread starter Longfellow
- Start date
- Messages
- 2,879
- Reaction score
- 1,479
- Points
- 108
What do you mean by that?
Yahweh kid
I am blessed!
Longfellow said:
Father is the one who has been cheated and dishonored
I was referring to what Longfellow said....
Father is the one who has been cheated and dishonored
I was referring to what Longfellow said....
- Messages
- 2,879
- Reaction score
- 1,479
- Points
- 108
Yes, I know,
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
My ways of thinking about this are continually evolving. Here's an update.
I've decided to call the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, "Persons(T)." That's a definition, completely different from what "person" means in any other context. My definition of "Person(T)" is whatever the Bible means by one of those names, which I'm not claiming to know, although I have some ideas about it. "The Father" is another name for God, and I'm not claiming to know what that means, other than being the God of Abraham. He is what He is. "The Son" is Jesus, meaning that He is a promised king of Israel. The Holy Spirit does things, but I'm not claiming to know if They are a person or not. They are a Person(T) by my definition. In the Bible, any of those names can be replaced by "God" without changing any true statements to false ones, but not the other way around. "God" can't always be replaced with any of those names that we choose, without changing any true statements to false one. Also, when the Father and the Son talk to each other or about each other, it's real, it is not just play-acting, not one person talking to himself.
Theologians say it's a substance that makes the three Persons(T) one God, but I think they generally agree that no one understands what they mean by that. I think that I'm in complete agreement with some widely trusted church fathers, the bishops who signed the first version of the Nicene Creed, and maybe with Augustine, that whatever that substance is, it is not physical or material.
I think that unnecessary complications are created by trying to make Christianity fit some definition of "monotheistic." That looks to me like a modern invention, designed for the sole purpose of stigmatizing eastern religions for subjugation purposes. Jesus looks to me like a god as much as any Greek or Roman god, with more authority and power than any of them, and not the same god as the Father. The same God, but not the same god. The Holy Spirit looks to me like God's influence in the world, which is none other than the influence of Jesus.
I've decided to call the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, "Persons(T)." That's a definition, completely different from what "person" means in any other context. My definition of "Person(T)" is whatever the Bible means by one of those names, which I'm not claiming to know, although I have some ideas about it. "The Father" is another name for God, and I'm not claiming to know what that means, other than being the God of Abraham. He is what He is. "The Son" is Jesus, meaning that He is a promised king of Israel. The Holy Spirit does things, but I'm not claiming to know if They are a person or not. They are a Person(T) by my definition. In the Bible, any of those names can be replaced by "God" without changing any true statements to false ones, but not the other way around. "God" can't always be replaced with any of those names that we choose, without changing any true statements to false one. Also, when the Father and the Son talk to each other or about each other, it's real, it is not just play-acting, not one person talking to himself.
Theologians say it's a substance that makes the three Persons(T) one God, but I think they generally agree that no one understands what they mean by that. I think that I'm in complete agreement with some widely trusted church fathers, the bishops who signed the first version of the Nicene Creed, and maybe with Augustine, that whatever that substance is, it is not physical or material.
I think that unnecessary complications are created by trying to make Christianity fit some definition of "monotheistic." That looks to me like a modern invention, designed for the sole purpose of stigmatizing eastern religions for subjugation purposes. Jesus looks to me like a god as much as any Greek or Roman god, with more authority and power than any of them, and not the same god as the Father. The same God, but not the same god. The Holy Spirit looks to me like God's influence in the world, which is none other than the influence of Jesus.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
What I meant by cheating Him was not paying what we owe Him.Ok, if that makes you happy....
Yes He is..... but can you cheat the all knowing God?
Yahweh kid
I am blessed!
Oh ok, I believe we owe Him our lives for sinning against Him. "the wages of sin is death"
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's what I meant, not that I believe it myself, but part of my understanding of your story.
Wages are not something that you owe someone. They are what someone pays you for your labor. The way I would put it is that what we would normally get in return for no labor in service to the kingdom (living in slavery to the sinful side of our nature) is no life in the kingdom (death). Jesus saves us from that slavery to the sinful side of our nature by giving Himself as a ransom to free us from it, so that we can go live in His kingdom where we belong. As I said, I don't have any mechanical or naturalistic explanation for how that works, but I believe that it does work that way. Of course, breaking our chains doesn't automatically make us walk into the kingdom. Believing that He broke our chains doesn't do it either, and we don't need to know who broke them to walk away free and enter the kingdom. We just need to see where it is, and keep putting one foot in front of the other.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 2,879
- Reaction score
- 1,479
- Points
- 108
Yes they are, if they have done the labor and you haven't paid them yet.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
This is about the verse that says "the wages of sin is death" being interpreted as "we owe something God because of our sins."
- Messages
- 2,879
- Reaction score
- 1,479
- Points
- 108
Yes, I know.
I was responding to your statement that "wages aren't something you owe someone" though I think wage earners think they are...
The phrase "the wages of sin is death" uses the term "wages" poetically and obliquely...
Still making the point, that if you labor, you get wages, if you sin, you get death.
But they chose to use the term wages, something transactional, agreed upon, and deliberate, rather than something natural - as if death were the natural consequence of sin. They could probably make that case too. Wages are something sought after. So why worded that way? As if death were being sought after? Irony and or wake-up call? Kind of like parents used to say to kids "You are cruising for a bruising" or "You seem determined to destroy your new toys" The persistent energetic behavior - almost as if SEEKING the consequences...
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
We can agree to disagree, like you said, but I still would like to talk with you some more about what I'm thinking.
In my story, the way that Jesus died, and His resurrection, are part of what makes it possible for us to be saved. I think that we agree on that. It looks to me like our disagreement is about what the Bible says about how that works, and what we need to do, to have the salvation that His death and resurrection made possible for us. As I understand it, your story, which you think is from the Bible, is that how he made our salvation possible was by paying a debt that we all owe God, and taking the punishment that we all deserve, for our sins, and the debt that we owe and the punishment that we deserve is to die.
I'll wait to see if I've understood that right, before I go on. And on ... and on ...
Yahweh kid
I am blessed!
There are no other gods. For God is the creator of the creation
Yes, the Bible says Salvation is a gift, correct. Do you have to do something to receive a gift? I believe that there are nothing we can do to receive Salvation, it is all God's work, all the glory goes to Him. How do we receive that Gift? John 3:16 is the answer.
It is right there, I have shown you the Scriptures.
A debt? We don't owe God anything, we sinned against Him and we are destined to hell for that.... If you want to use the word debt..... we owe God our lives for sinning against Him.
Ultimate love is to give a life for another so that they might live. This is what Jesus did, He gave His (sinless) life for our (sinful) life so that we might live and not die. Paid the ransom, gave His life by crucifixion. Jesus is the Lam without blemish, He is the last sacrifice.... no more needed.
When we sin we rebel against God (like lucifer did) and HE will judge us accordingly. How did God judge lucifer when he sinned/rebelled against God ? He was thrown out of heaven and will be thrown into hell made for him and the angels that followed him. Lucifer sinned only once my friend and he was separated from God, none of his good deeds did anything for him to receive mercy for his mistake...... do you think if he repented that God would have forgiven him? Will God forgive us if we only repent? No, we need the Gift of Salvation.... Salvation is 100% God's work and 0% from our works..... The gift of Salvation is not available to the fallen angels, only humans.......
How an amazing God we have... praise the Lord.
Yes.... The way I understand the Bible is that "death" is referring to the separation from God. We will never ever experience Him, hear from Him, see Him after we die in this life and we are not Saved. God is the giver and taker of life, for He is the one who created life.
If a person's heart and mind is not open for the Truth, he will not find it. We are so eager to hear what man says, but should we not ask God if He is the Truth to reveal Himself to us. I believe that is what He did for me, opened my eyes..... God opened doors, lead me to others who also love the Word, freed me from an addiction which I could not do myself......experienced how God revived a person.... helped me to become closer to Him........ let me stop here, I do not want to bore you with my stories.....
Many people do not believe they can experience God in their lives, I have. When people testify about these experiences it gets brushed off as fairy tales, imagination, etc. and that's ok. It is our choice to make whether we want to believe in Him or not.
BTW. All the experiences are not necessarily from God, but can be demonic. If it contradicts what the Word says in any way we know it is a deception to pull us away from God. Satan do not want us to have a personal relationship with God.
Ooooo, it's late, need to go and sleep.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
I agree that there's nothing we have to do, or can do, to receive salvation.
But your interpretation of John 3:1 is that there is something that we can do, and have to do, to receive it. We have to believe some things about Jesus that John 3:16 does not say.
Okay so my understanding of what you're saying is that death is the punishment that we deserve for sinning against him, and maybe that's also what people mean when they call it not only a punishment that Jesus took for our sins, but also a price that He paid for them
.
Exactly. That's exactly what I think.
Yes.
Yes, if it's genuine repentance.
Well obviously we need the gift of salvation to be saved. The question is, how does that gift come to us? As I understand it, you're saying that it isn't really a gift, it has conditions. We have to tell ourselves that we believe some things about Jesus, in order to receive it.
Exactly. That's exactly what I think.
I don't think that I know what it means, other than something that I would rather avoid.
Not boring me, not at all.
Thanks for having this conversation with me.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
Some verses in the Bible look to you like saying that Jesus took the punishment for our sins. They don't look like that to me, and most of the Bible looka to me like saying that no one ever has to be punished, for anyone to be saved. I don't think that the Bible is saying that Jesus took the punishment for our sins. Of course I could be wrong. Actually, I think that I would like to discuss it some more, to see where I could be wrong.There are no other gods. For God is the creator of the creation
Yes, the Bible says Salvation is a gift, correct. Do you have to do something to receive a gift? I believe that there are nothing we can do to receive Salvation, it is all God's work, all the glory goes to Him. How do we receive that Gift? John 3:16 is the answer.
It is right there, I have shown you the Scriptures.
A debt? We don't owe God anything, we sinned against Him and we are destined to hell for that.... If you want to use the word debt..... we owe God our lives for sinning against Him.
Ultimate love is to give a life for another so that they might live. This is what Jesus did, He gave His (sinless) life for our (sinful) life so that we might live and not die. Paid the ransom, gave His life by crucifixion. Jesus is the Lam without blemish, He is the last sacrifice.... no more needed.
When we sin we rebel against God (like lucifer did) and HE will judge us accordingly. How did God judge lucifer when he sinned/rebelled against God ? He was thrown out of heaven and will be thrown into hell made for him and the angels that followed him. Lucifer sinned only once my friend and he was separated from God, none of his good deeds did anything for him to receive mercy for his mistake...... do you think if he repented that God would have forgiven him? Will God forgive us if we only repent? No, we need the Gift of Salvation.... Salvation is 100% God's work and 0% from our works..... The gift of Salvation is not available to the fallen angels, only humans.......
How an amazing God we have... praise the Lord.
Yes.... The way I understand the Bible is that "death" is referring to the separation from God. We will never ever experience Him, hear from Him, see Him after we die in this life and we are not Saved. God is the giver and taker of life, for He is the one who created life.
If a person's heart and mind is not open for the Truth, he will not find it. We are so eager to hear what man says, but should we not ask God if He is the Truth to reveal Himself to us. I believe that is what He did for me, opened my eyes..... God opened doors, lead me to others who also love the Word, freed me from an addiction which I could not do myself......experienced how God revived a person.... helped me to become closer to Him........ let me stop here, I do not want to bore you with my stories.....
Many people do not believe they can experience God in their lives, I have. When people testify about these experiences it gets brushed off as fairy tales, imagination, etc. and that's ok. It is our choice to make whether we want to believe in Him or not.
BTW. All the experiences are not necessarily from God, but can be demonic. If it contradicts what the Word says in any way we know it is a deception to pull us away from God. Satan do not want us to have a personal relationship with God.
Ooooo, it's late, need to go and sleep.
I'm thinking that even if the Bible doesn't say that, maybe it's helpful somehow for people to think that sometimes. I think that it can be harmful in some ways, so I want to try to explain that.
- It defames God. It makes God look like a person who can't forgive anyone who does Him wrong without someone being not only punished, but tortured, and that it's only for revenge, and not what punishment is normally for, which is for people to suffer consequences for their wrongdoings.
- It makes God look like a person who breaks HIs own laws, and breaks His promises.
- It takes away all incentive for people try to do better.
- It's a way for some people to subjugate others.
That's all I can think of for now. There might be more.
By their own report ...
I think the same way about Non-trinitarian theologies. And the paganism legacy argument.
My view is the opposite. It is entirely coherent, and necessary, if salvation is on the table. Deism, for example, offers God but no salvation.
Must the word be there? Why?
That's just not the case. A trinity can be argued from John:
The Father – we believe is God (1);
The Son – we believe is God (2);
The Holy Spirit – is 'another' (3) ...
Ergo there are three.
Baptism was in the triform formula from the very earliest, and the earliest Christians were Jewish converts who saw no problem relating to a three-fold creed and their Jewish inheritance. There was always three, and a Jew would not pray to not-God.
The Nicene doctrine of the Trinity says something distinct other than the Subordinationist doctrine, I grant you, but it seems to me that subordinationism would, inevitably, eventually lead to bi- or tri-theism, as it is more overtly and explicity three gods – the 'orthodox' doctrine of Arius, albeit short-lived, interposes a demiurge, or some order of hierarchy of deity, between God and man.
Nor do Trinitarian Christians depart from that doctrine.
Yahweh kid
I am blessed!
Why did Jesus say we need to fear God?
Do you really think if he repented that God would have forgiven him? Ok, but why did he not use that card? Saying sorry is so easy, right? Obviously it did not work.
If satan wants to go back to heaven he just need to repent? Is this how it works? Did Jesus die for the fallen angels as well?
I know I cannot give myself Salvation.
Shalom
Believe is accepting the truth.....it is not a work.
Do you really think if he repented that God would have forgiven him? Ok, but why did he not use that card? Saying sorry is so easy, right? Obviously it did not work.
If satan wants to go back to heaven he just need to repent? Is this how it works? Did Jesus die for the fallen angels as well?
Even if you are an atheist? you said if lucifer genuinely repent God will forgive him ...... that is not the God of the Bible(I might be wrong, just show me the Scripture)...He is a just God.....can we truly love all and not be just/fair.
To tell ourselves? I don't see it that way...... we have to accept all of it wholeheartedly. When we do this we are filled with the Holy Spirit and our love for Jesus grows exponentially. Coming back to people saying they are Christian, could it be that they are only telling themselves they are Christian, because they want to be in the group.
I feel the same way....I don't think that I know what it means, other than something that I would rather avoid.
I know I cannot give myself Salvation.You are welcome, normally the world do not want to hear what the Word got to say, because it can be offensive. Look what happened to the apostles, they rather took death than deny Jesus is Lord. I am pretty sure the Pharisees were so offended by His teachings that they chose Him to be sacrificed, not the criminal.Thanks for having this conversation with me.
- Peter: Crucified upside down in Rome.
- Paul: Beheaded in Rome.
- James, son of Zebedee: Beheaded by King Herod.
- John: Exiled to the island of Patmos and died of natural causes.
- Philip: Martyred in Hierapolis, possibly by crucifixion or stoning.
- Bartholomew/Nathanael: Flayed alive and then crucified.
- Thomas: Impaled with spears in India.
- Matthew: Martyred in Ethiopia, possibly by a sword wound.
- James, son of Alphaeus: Possibly stoned and then clubbed to death.
- Simon the Zealot: May have been crucified or sawn in half in Persia.
- Jude Thaddaeus: May have been crucified or clubbed to death and then sawed in half.
- Judas Iscariot: Died by suicide (hanging) after betraying Jesus.
- Andrew: Crucified on an X-shaped cross in Greece.
- Matthias: Stoned and then beheaded.
Shalom
- Messages
- 2,879
- Reaction score
- 1,479
- Points
- 108
Ok. What happens without the trinity, salvation wise? Salvation from what, in your view (as a universalist)
Salvation from what? Deism offers G-d but no condemnation.
- Messages
- 2,879
- Reaction score
- 1,479
- Points
- 108
Yes, who else's?
Almost every group no matter how orthodox or heterodox or "heretical" will, by their own self-report, be "truer to the Bible" than everybody else.
It might sound different from modern Progressive Christians, who take a different approach, and do not take to the idea of the Bible of as being factual historical infallible - and may not have a dogmatic view about inspiration. But by their own self report, they use it and consult and and usually by their own self report attempt to be faithful to the moral lessons discovered in it.
- Messages
- 2,879
- Reaction score
- 1,479
- Points
- 108
Maybe maybe not? If you use a term that is not in the original text, and claim it is utterly essential, AND claim that the original text is the authority upon which it is based, well, it makes total and complete sense that you will forever get this response: "Wait what? Are you sure?"
Nothing wrong with that. Just be happy to supply the answer and the argument to back it up to new askers daily.
(especially if it is a concept challenging to grasp that you acknowledge is mystery anyway)