Thoughts about Trinity beliefs

[Thomas]

Well, G-d has created mankind with an independent nature. That is where the evil originates.

With man, yes ... not God.

Yes .. they are doing "what G-d ordained" in the sense that G-d knew that mankind would sin.

Well there's a debate.

But as God is outside time, yes, he knew ...

That is NOT to say, that G-d has "ordained" man to sin .. because it is of our own free-will,
and not G-d's will.

Exactly.

On what basis? I see no "stuff"
..but if you mean that we are independent of G-d, then yes ..at least, for a time..

I mean our nature is not divine as God's nature is.

..and that is "stuff"?

The Divine Will? No. That is act.

Again, makes no sense.

Actually it does.

Why make a world in which there is lies and deception, when (according to you), G-d could
have created a paradise immediately .. "because He can".

Because He didn't.

He might well have created another Kosmos under entirely different conditions, toewards an entirely different end.

What I do nor accept is God is under any necessity to create. It's a 'free act', as we say.

If God is going to create free minded creatures, who are not as omniscient as He, then there is an inevitability ...

No, I think not .. it is more of a philosophical debate, that does not negate Christianity.

I'm not negating Christianity, I'm saying we appear to assert things Islam refutes.

Your views on "Universalism" do not represent the only Christian viewpoint.

No, it doesn't.

Hmmm .. but I have never argued on the point of what "eternity" represents, as you imply.

OK.

I do not believe that G-d wants ANYBODY to end up with a tortured soul .. including satan.

Then God will find a way ...

Sin can be forgiven .. the problem arises when we refuse to repent .. repentance does not affect G-d in any way .. it affects ourselves .. but not because G-d does this or that. ..it is ourselves that do the doing. IMHO.

I do not disagree ... I simply cannot see how a soul, if you like, can stand before God and say "I don't believe you."

 

[Faithfulservant]

We focus on the devil being the enemy but we also have our flesh and the world that we battle with

 

[TheLightWithin]

What do you mean it's not borne out of reality?

..that there is a heaven, but no hell .. because "G-d is love".

Because the wages of sin is death.
Also in the theology I was taught it was not heaven as often conceived, but a new heaven and a new earth, and if I remember correctly people lived on the new earth (which, if I remember correctly, included all planets, everything in the physical realm)

Our experiences in this life do not suggest that G-d does not allow suffering.

Did anybody say that G-d did not allow suffering?
On the other hand, many question whether God would allow relentless unbearable eternal suffering with no way out, through change, growth, death, or anything else. Many question that.
That question has nothing whatsoever to do with the observation that suffering occurs in our short life on earth.
Besides which, the wages of sin is death.

What in religion is clearly borne out of reality?

So I would reiterate my question - What, if anything, in any religion, is clearly borne out in reality?

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God is going to create free minded creatures, who are not as omniscient as He, then there is an inevitability ...

Agreed upon.
..but that does not mean that G-d did that for no reason i.e. just because He could

I do not disagree ... I simply cannot see how a soul, if you like, can stand before God and say "I don't believe you."

As already discussed, it's not a question of what we say .. it's more a state of mind.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because the wages of sin is death.

"death" is usually understood as in physical death.
The "death of a soul" is a man-made concept, imho.
That is, one can interpret its meaning in numerous ways.

Did anybody say that G-d did not allow suffering?

Yes .. I was raised in a Protestant nation .. England .. in which hell was rarely mentioned.
Heaven was mentioned over and over.. and I was a choir boy in C. of E.

What, if anything, in any religion, is clearly borne out in reality?

It depends on the creed, I would say.

I believe in the life hereafter .. I believe that our intentions and deeds shape our future.
..in this life .. and the next. i.e. individually and collectively

..so I envisage a significant connection between this life and the next.

 

[TheLightWithin]

"death" is usually understood as in physical death.
The "death of a soul" is a man-made concept, imho.
That is, one can interpret its meaning in numerous ways.

Almost everything in religion is a man made concept

Yes .. I was raised in a Protestant nation .. England .. in which hell was rarely mentioned.
Heaven was mentioned over and over.. and I was a choir boy in C. of E.

Ok, but did anybody say G-d did not allow suffering in this life or in the next?
Did they just not address it?
It does seem ludicrous that G-d would allow eternal unending suffering.
Some religions address that more directly than others.
Nobody seems to have empirical facts about the afterlife however.

What, if anything, in any religion, is clearly borne out in reality?

It depends on the creed, I would say.

I believe that our intentions and deeds shape our future.
..in this life .. and the next.

..so I envisage a significant connection between this life and the next.

Ok. But we don't have any empirical facts about it, so it's hard to assert whether or not it is "reality"