I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses

[walter]

We've cross-posted here.

I have no issue with the term 'God', simply that you have to account for the presence or absence of the article ὁ (ho, 'the').

I believe [Greek: ton theon] refers to the Father "The God Almighty" / [Greek: theos] refers to Jesus "The Mighty God" In this way also Jesus is still really God's Son. 1 Cor. 8:6, Jn. 17:3, 1 Peter 1:3, Eph. 1:3, Jn. 20:28, Jn. 5:19, Jn. 14:10, Jn. 8:28

But you have the perfect rite to believe the way you feel is true.

 

[Thomas]

I believe [Greek: ton theon] refers to the Father "The God Almighty"

The phrase πρὸς τὸν θεόν pros ton theon is translated as 'with (the) God' – as you say, God the Father.

pros is a preposition indicating direction or relationship ('towards' or 'with').
ton) is the definite article in the accusative case ('the').
theon is 'god' in the accusative case, thus the God, as the object of the preposition.

But you have the perfect rite to believe the way you feel is true.

I think we both agree that Jesus is God, the Son of God.

I thought JW's believed Jesus was a kind of demigod or intermediate divine being, a created nature rather than sharing the full divinity of God the Father.

 

[walter]

The phrase πρὸς τὸν θεόν pros ton theon is translated as 'with (the) God' – as you say, God the Father.

pros is a preposition indicating direction or relationship ('towards' or 'with').
ton) is the definite article in the accusative case ('the').
theon is 'god' in the accusative case, thus the God, as the object of the preposition.


I think we both agree that Jesus is God, the Son of God.

I thought JW's believed Jesus was a kind of demigod or intermediate divine being, a created nature rather than sharing the full divinity of God the Father.

If you read these scriptures, the words in each scripture will explain exactly who Jesus is and exactly who the Father is.

Jn.1:1-3, Lk.1:32-33, Jn 10:34-36, 1 Cor. 8:6, Jn. 17:3, 1 Peter 1:3, Eph. 1:3, Jn. 20:28, Jn. 5:19, Jn. 14:10, Jn. 8:28, Eph. 1:17, Ro. 15:6, Matt. 16:16-17

 

[walter]

a created nature

People apply this scripture to Jesus resurrection from the dead, but before Jesus was resurrection from the dead, Myriads of angels in the heavens were created by God and all the people from Adam to Jesus time that have lived on earth were created by God, which started thousands of years ago.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: King James Bible

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. New American Bible

Colossians 1:15
15 who is a likeness of the God of that unseen, first-born of every creation; Emphatic Diaglott

Colossians 1:15, Exodus 33:20
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: latinvulgate.com

Lamsa Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, and the first-born of every creature:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who is the image of The Unseen God and is The Firstborn of all creation.

Most of the oldest Bibles Translate and render it like the scriptures above.

And besides Jesus was not invisible.

 

[walter]

Exodus 33:20

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” New King James Version

 

[walter]

It is more important to me to show kindness to my fellow man, then to prove any points.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I thought JW's believed Jesus was a kind of demigod or intermediate divine being, a created nature rather than sharing the full divinity of God the Father.

That was my understanding of JWs too. I've even read Jesus was considered an incarnation of Archangel Michael or Metatron.

The WCG, on the other hand, is now described as having been Binitarian, though I don't know if they used that word and don't remember how my grandfather described that particular detail, only that the Trinity was flatly out. Their remnant churches vary on that point.

Christadelphians are definitely more fully Unitarian. I think thought there might have been and might still be enough overlap in people who are drawn to all those groups for there to be some bleed thru of doctrine - esp since I don't know if rigorous catechism is a part of every believer's life for various reasons.

 

[walter]

That was my understanding of JWs too. I've even read Jesus was considered an incarnation of Archangel Michael or Metatron.

The WCG, on the other hand, is now described as having been Binitarian, though I don't know if they used that word and don't remember how my grandfather described that particular detail, only that the Trinity was flatly out. Their remnant churches vary on that point.

Christadelphians are definitely more fully Unitarian. I think thought there might have been and might still be enough overlap in people who are drawn to all those groups for there to be some bleed thru of doctrine - esp since I don't know if rigorous catechism is a part of every believer's life for various reasons.

How Are you doing? What kind of hobbies do you like? Boy this learning how to walk again is the pits. Do you like building or making things? When I was 20 I started a handyman business, and fixed and built whatever anybody needed.

 

[walter]

That was my understanding of JWs too. I've even read Jesus was considered an incarnation of Archangel Michael or Metatron.

JW's actually believe Almighty God really has many Sons in heaven [ angels ] but Jesus is first-begotten Son, God's actual Son,
Jesus created everything whether it was in heaven or on earth by his Fathers instructions and power. Which Jesus explains in detail in the gospels. Notice Jesus words in the gospels he gives the credit to his Father most of the time.

Just like God's word explains in Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” New King James Version

No matter if a person believes in the Trinity or Binitarian or One God One Person, in these three different beliefs, all three claim their is one God. So if: “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Wouldn't that apply to all the persons in the Godhead?

Everyone saw Jesus face as a human on earth and even the resurrected Jesus was seen by many, So if the Godhead is only one God and you aren't supposed to see that one God, how is it that Jesus' can be part of that Godhead when the Godhead is one God?

To me any amount of persons in a Godhead doesn't make sense with the other scriptures in the Bible.

 

[Thomas]

Hi @walter –

If you read these scriptures, the words in each scripture will explain exactly who Jesus is and exactly who the Father is.

Would that such was true ... but sadly, it's not.

If that were true, that Scripture explains 'exactly', then there could never be any dispute in the understanding of its meaning, but clearly there is, as you and I read the verses you cite quite differently.

Scripture is a window into the Infinite, it will never be 'exact' because at that moment one stops going forward, going deeper, into its meaning. There's always more ...

+++

But hey, keep up the physio, and get well.

 

[Thomas]

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” New King James Version

Then again ...

"Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also." (John 14:9)

Of course, John is not disputing or refuting Exodus, so we have to seek the answer.

 

[RabbiO]

@walter -

You seem reluctant to acknowledge that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus and Michael, the archangel, are one and the same. Why? Anyone can go to the organization’s website, jw.org, for confirmation.

I have had to deal with some of the health issues you have. I wish you well on your road to recovery.

 

[pinney]

JW's actually believe Almighty God really has many Sons in heaven [ angels ] but Jesus is first-begotten Son, God's actual Son,
Jesus created everything whether it was in heaven or on earth by his Fathers instructions and power. Which Jesus explains in detail in the gospels. Notice Jesus words in the gospels he gives the credit to his Father most of the time.

Just like God's word explains in Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” New King James Version

No matter if a person believes in the Trinity or Binitarian or One God One Person, in these three different beliefs, all three claim their is one God. So if: “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Wouldn't that apply to all the persons in the Godhead?

Everyone saw Jesus face as a human on earth and even the resurrected Jesus was seen by many, So if the Godhead is only one God and you aren't supposed to see that one God, how is it that Jesus' can be part of that Godhead when the Godhead is one God?

To me any amount of persons in a Godhead doesn't make sense with the other scriptures in the Bible.

Nothing about a three headed God makes sense. I'm not a JW but there's a far greater chance Jesus was an angel before becoming a man. To claim he is God destroys and contradicts Jesus' own words. Jesus was a human being. The holy spirit is God's power and not a nameless individual person.

 

[walter]

exactly

I agree with you, forget I use the word exactly.

Jn.1:1-3, Lk.1:32-33, Jn 10:34-36, 1 Cor. 8:6, Jn. 17:3, 1 Peter 1:3, Eph. 1:3, Jn. 20:28, Jn. 5:19, Jn. 14:10, Jn. 8:28, Eph. 1:17, Ro. 15:6, Matt. 16:16-17

Did you look up all these scriptures? They are helpful to understand about Jesus and his Father aren't they?

I read the verses you cite quite differently.

Whether we both read the scriptures differently or not, is it really that difficult, we both speak English and the scriptures are written in English, if we let the words in the scriptures speak for themselves, how hard can it be?

Why did God give us the Bible with all these words in it, if the actual words don't provide meaning?

To me it is not important to prove my point debating over this word or that word, I just like to present what I believe and why I believe it, and let each person use what is useful to them or not.

 

[walter]

@walter -

You seem reluctant to acknowledge that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus and Michael, the archangel, are one and the same. Why? Anyone can go to the organization’s website, jw.org, for confirmation.

I have had to deal with some of the health issues you have. I wish you well on your road to recovery.

I agree with you they can just go on jw.org and find out that information.

Sorry I I did not respond to Jesus being Michael the Archangel, If you go to jw.org or just ask Google "is Jesus Michael the archangel jw.org" then click on one of the links on the first page, it will provide you with the scriptures to support that view.
What I think is important is that Jesus is the first-begotten angel. --Sorry to repeat myself.

Thank you for your kind words about my health, I hope for the best in your circumstances.

 

[muhammad_isa]

To me it is not important to prove my point debating over this word or that word, I just like to present what I believe and why I believe it, and let each person use what is useful to them or not.

Excellent .. that's the spirit.

United we stand, divided we fall.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Nothing about a three headed God makes sense..

That remark reminds me of depictions/images of a Hindu god.
..but whatever religious denomination we belong to, we all pray to the One God .. don't we?

 

[Thomas]

Nothing about a three headed God makes sense.

I agree with you there. But that's not what Trinitarian doctrine is about.

I'm not a JW but there's a far greater chance Jesus was an angel before becoming a man.

Well if we understand Scripture – the Hebrew Scriptures – as Paul and his contemporaries understood them, then every manifestation of the Divine in Scripture, be it God, angels, powers and principalities, are theophanies, 'divine appearances', and the early Church saw them as appearances of Christ as the Logos of God – be it in the form of an angel, or a voice from a burning bush, or words on the tongue of a prophet.

To claim he is God destroys and contradicts Jesus' own words.

It really doesn't.

Jesus was a human being.

Yes.

The holy spirit is God's power and not a nameless individual person.

Not a 'nameless individual person', but nevertheless relates to us in a person-to-person sense, in that one can be aware or conscious of the presence of the Holy Spirit as a being and not merely a force.

 

[Thomas]

Whether we both read the scriptures differently or not, is it really that difficult, we both speak English and the scriptures are written in English, if we let the words in the scriptures speak for themselves, how hard can it be?

Well thereby hangs a tail. They were written in Hebrew and Koine Greek, and translated into English, and translations vary, and translation is as much an art as it is a science.

Why did God give us the Bible with all these words in it, if the actual words don't provide meaning?

Words convey meaning according to the mind reading the words ...

To me it is not important to prove my point debating over this word or that word, I just like to present what I believe and why I believe it, and let each person use what is useful to them or not.

OK.

I only respond because this is a public forum, inviting discussion.

 

[walter]

Well thereby hangs a tail. They were written in Hebrew and Koine Greek, and translated into English, and translations vary, and translation is as much an art as it is a science.


Words convey meaning according to the mind reading the words ...


OK.

I only respond because this is a public forum, inviting discussion.

Thank you for your information and I we keep it in mind. Peace and happiness be with you.