Zen

RJM said:
The folks who have to deny fine tuning need to explore all sorts of convoluted thought structures, imo.
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I'm not quite sure which folks you mean there? Or what you mean by fine tuning?
Convoluted thoughts structures though sound very familiar 🤯
 
RJM said:
Fine tuning of the universe to support life on earth
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Ah, do you mean by something with agency and intent?

I lean more towards Douglas Adams and his puddle:

"This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'"
 
Bloodshot said:
Ah, do you mean by something with agency and intent?

I lean more towards Douglas Adams and his puddle:

"This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'"
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en.wikipedia.org

Fine-tuned universe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
RJM said:
The folks who have to deny fine tuning need to explore all sorts of convoluted thought structures, imo.
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For science, it is easy. Stick to what you know at the moment. Tell straightway, what you do not know.
It is apologists who have to break their brains with convoluted thought structures to justify their God.
 
Yeah, familiar with the arguments. However I strongly suspect the 25+ "tuning parameters" are emergent from a deeper, simpler relationship we just haven't yet uncovered.

Note that this doesn't preclude an architect in any way, but it does remove the need for one whose constant input is necessary to maintain the system.
 
RJM said:
EDIT: The intervention we get might not be the one we expect
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The adage G!d answers all prayers... you might just not like the answer, is always a good one.

And my mom used to always say ... the farmer's probably prayed harder than the beach goers.

I personally like long meditations because ya sit there long enough to hear answers.

My preacher said that he learned while I at the monastery ya gotta look around any time you hear G!d give you a calling...cause he might be talking to someone else.
Aupmanyav said:
I get disturbed by the theism of my family
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The old "answers in mysterious ways" comes to mind... you been working on patience and acceptance lately? Opportunity knocking
 
Aupmanyav said:
It is apologists who have to break their brains with convoluted thought structures to justify their God.
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And yet the the idea of God is quite simple, and the reasoning and rationale quite logical, so not sure why the convolutions?

On the other hand, Scientific Materialism, or Physicalism, is a philosophy that sometimes engages in overreach to argue against alternate theories – and that's not even bringing God into the picture.

So convoluted arguments seem to be a human thing, evidenced in any and probably every field.
 
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Thomas said:
And yet the the idea of God is quite simple, and the reasoning and rationale quite logical, so not sure why the convolutions?
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If the idea of god (which god, i could ask, by the way) is so simple, then why are there so many conflicting versions of that idea?
 
wil said:
The adage G!d answers all prayers... you might just not like the answer, is always a good one.
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No. The issue is that spiritual powers need our invitation. What you get is spiritual. Spiritual laws are not always the same as natural laws. Sometimes spiritual law is at odds and even opposite to natural, material expectation. The last shall be first. Jesus said it all.
 
Bloodshot said:
You asked what science said 🙃 not me!
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The anthropic principle is a cop-out: "It is because it just is"

The multiverse conjecture is unfalsifiable.
Neither are scientific, imo
 
RJM said:
The anthropic principle is a cop-out: "It is because it just is"

The multiverse conjecture is unfalsifiable.
Neither are scientific, imo
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The anthropic principle doesn't depend on the multiverse hypothesis in any way.

How is "It is because of god just is" less of a cop out? It multiplies entities, provides no answers, and even denies the possibility of finding any.
 
Bloodshot said:
How is "It is because of god just is" less of a cop out?
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Who said that?

Why are the electron/proton charges exactly equal and opposite? Why is the force of gravity exactly what it is? These things constitute the universe we live in. If they were slightly different, we wouldn't be here.

Ok. Fine. That explains everything: the incredible complexity of a single cell of a single blade of grass. If it wasn't like that, it wouldn't be at all.

Or perhaps there are infinite other universes where conditions are different, that we cannot ever see or test or know about?

Good scientific reasoning, lol
 
We regularly get posts waffling about "god as pure consciousness that just exists", or variations on the theme.

How did god come to exist in your framework?
 
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