A non-Christian understanding of the Christian Bible

Jesus has all the authority of God, from God
I think this is the core understanding. Jesus is more than just a prophet who relays the word of God to man. He is more than just a mirror who reflects the light of God. Jesus does not have to ask permission of the Father because he is one with the Father.
 
Hopefully some useful Trinitarian reflection about Trinity beliefs:

I think that what matters is that the interpersonal relationship between the Father and the Son is genuine and not a performance by a single self...
I agree. The error in question is Modalism, which arose in the late 2nd century – by such persons as Noetus of Smyrna, Praxeas and Sabellius, and is still around today, as per Oneness Pentecostalism.

The Trinitarian (theologian) would also assert, as prior, the intrapersonal relationship between the Three Persons of the Trinity, traditionally expressed as the difference between the 'Economic Trinity' (from the Greek οἰκονομία, oikonomia, 'household management'), and the 'Immanent Trinity'.

The Economic Trinity refers to God’s external actions and roles within creation and salvation history, specifically how Father, Son and Holy Spirit interact in, with and to the world. The Immanent Trinity (or Ontological Trinity) describes God's internal, eternal relationships and nature as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, existing independently of creation and human experience.

The Economic Trinity focuses on God for us in time and place; the Ontological Trinity focuses on God in Himself in eternity. The former serves as the revelation through which humans come to know God, whereas the latter represents the transcendent reality that remains incomprehensible in its fullness.

... and that Jesus has all the authority of God, from God.
Whereas a Trinitarian would suggest Jesus has all the authority of God because He is God.

I disagree with any theory that makes same-essence belief a requirement for his purposes.
In which case you reject a core axiom of the traditional expression of the Trinity.

I think that he is in some way a perfect reflection of God ...
As above, I would suggest Jesus is a perfect image of God because He is God. (I think, technically, He is the image and we see its reflection? I might be splitting hairs.)

... and that is part of his nature unique to him, not possible for anyone else.
You'd have to qualify that, as neither the Son's divinity nor His humanity is, in itself, unique. His divine nature is the same as the Father's and the Holy Spirit's, but neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit is the Son. His humanity is common to us all, in that his human nature is the same nature as ours. He is unique as the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, as He alone occupies that place in the intrapersonal relationship, and He alone occupies that place in relation to the world.

He's fully human, but something else at the same time, which I don't think is possible for anyone to understand ...
You can declare that for yourself, but you cannot declare that for everyone else.

... or that we need to understand other than his authority being God's authority ...
That, as explained above, is a misconception when applied to the Trinity.

the very meaning of the authority of God in the Abrahamic scriptures.
Authority of God rests in God and reaches down all the way through creation and is invested in whosoever God chooses for whatsoever is His purpose – patriarchs, prophets, priests all had a divine authority invested in them to speak and to act, and so on.

If same essence means same self, or same substance, then it's false.
Well you've offered two possibilities here.

'If same essence means same self' – it does not, you are right, it is false.
'If same essence means same substance' – it does, so you are wrong in declaring it false.
 
A note on terms –

In early theological usage, particularly before the Arian controversy, the Greek ousia was translated into Latin either as essentia, or substantia, the two being considered synonymous. They were interchangeable in early texts and understanding.

(A contemporary 'fly in the ointment' is that, in modern usage, 'substance' generally refers to unidentified stuff, whereas in philosophy it's different, as in 'the substance of the debate', where one could as easily say 'the essence of the debate'.)

However, these terms underwent significant clarification during the 4th century. Previously, philosophers used ousia and hypostasis interchangeably. The trouble was, all these terms were rather fluid in their meaning, which began to offer problems when people were trying to clarify the meanings of natures, persons, etc., relative to the debate.

In the later 4th century, the Cappadocian Fathers (Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa) drew a distinction in Trinitarian theology between the one, common ousia (essence/substance) of God and the three distinct hypostases of the persons.
 
Hypostasis is a case in point.

The Greek term ὑπόστασις (hypóstasis), meant the underlying, fundamental ousia, the essence/substance of a thing.

Among the pre-Nicene Church Fathers, Dionysius of Rome (d. 268CE) said it was wrong to divide the divine monarchy into three separate hypostases, he saw this as effective tritheism. Sabellius (fl 215, excommunicated 220CE) followed the same logic.

Hippolytus of Rome (165-235CE) would use the same language as Sabellius. "While I will not say that there are two gods – but rather one – I will say there are two persons (prosopa); and that a third economy is the grace of the Holy Spirit. For though the Father is one, there are two persons (prosopa) – because there is the Son as well: and the third too – the Holy Spirit."

The ante-Nicene Basil of Caesarea (329-379CE) explained "According to Sabellius, there is in God only one hypostasis but three prosopa..." The Greek Fathers would assert three hypostases, whilst the Latins remained professing Una substantia, tres personae. This would cause tensions between them, as the West continued to use the language which today would be translated as 'one substance, three persons' while the Greeks would say 'three hypostases' which could be construed to infer tritheism.

This hardly makes things any clearer, and the heresy of Sabellianism would be attributed to the West (Sabellius was from Anatolia, but was preaching in Rome), with the Greeks fearing the term prosopon (or the plural prosopa) which in Greek meant 'face' or 'mask', would imply Modalism.

Meanwhile the West was fearful of referring to the Persons as hypostases, which to them would imply three ousia and thus tritheism.

Here's the rub ...
The codicil attached to the Creed of Nicaea declares:
"But as for those who say, There was when He was not ...
or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance...
– these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes."

So this declares the Son is of the same hypostasis / ousia as the Father, but by the end of the century ousia and hypostasis underwent furthern philosophical and theological clarification. This foes not undermine the declaration of the Nicene bishops, rather it refined it.

Hypostasis came to be understood as the individual aspect of ousia, this means ousia is the 'parent' characteristic that is shared by the hypostasis under it. Ousia can be shared by numerous hypostases, as a hypostasis is the individual instance and expression or manifestation of its ousia, just as a person is an individual instance of human nature. Thus hypostasis is not a part of ousia, in the same way that a human being is not partly human nature – each and every human being is wholly human and nothing else.

Thus the ousia is equally possessed by each hypostasis and in that sense they are co-equal and co-essential. What renders each hypostasis unique and distinct is how it expresses its ousia, but this 'expression' is in relation to other hypostases of the same ousia, and in relation to the world at large.

This consensus was not achieved without some confusion. Many Latin-speaking theologians understood hypostasis as substantia; thus when speaking of three hypostases in the Godhead, they may have suspected three substances or tritheism.

After the mid-fifth-century Council of Chalcedon, the word came to be contrasted with ousia and was used to mean 'individual reality', especially in Christological and Trinitarian contexts.

Thus the traditional Christian concept of the Trinity is one God existing in three distinct hypostases/personae/persons.

Then the debate moved on to a whole new ballgame, contesting the question of one will in Christ, or two ...
 
the whole world has an opinion about Christianity
It comes with the territory of evangelism, of presence and prominence, and the strong claims of being the universal church whose teachings apply to everyone if you believe or not and woe to those who don't believe... as well as being so widespread as to thoroughly shape the culture many people grow up and live in, with or without belonging to a denomination... Christianity has an opinion on the world and on non Christians and certainly names for and opinions of nonstandard / heterodox Christians
 
More thoughts about the Father and the Son. I think that part of what God wants for us, because it’s good for us, is to be learning together to live together the way he says to live. Part of that is loving submission to his will. Jesus is everything that God is, for that purpose. Our relationship with him is our relationship with God. At the same he models the relationship that we can have with God as our father. For that purpose he is not the same person as the Father. The relationship between them is a genuine interpersonal relationship.
 
Here’s another way that I’m thinking now about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is teaching and showing us about a relationship that we can have with God. and comparing it to a relationship with a father. Part of that is loving and trusting submission to the father’s will. For that purpose he is God. Not simply a prophet giving us words from God, but God himself, the one to serve and obey with love and trust.

Another part of his teaching is modeling the relationship that we can have with God as our father. For that purpose he is the Son, submitting to the Father’s will with love and trust.

The Holy Spirit is God in the world, doing things in the world, that be let’s us help him do because that’s good for us.
 
Here’s another way that I’m thinking now about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus prayed that we should be ‘One’ in exactly the same way that he is ‘One with the Father’. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father, and how we should be ‘One’.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.

Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Jesus loves us as he loves himself, he died for us, rose again and sent the Holy Spirit. Thank you Lord

Could the spirit be the power of God’s love; working through the perfection of the greatest commandments?

1 Samuel 18-1, NIV version

Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself.

I am Catholic, people of many faiths and no faith are my real neighbours, how do I become as one with them?

Some thoughts to challenge the mind to think???
 
Jesus prayed that we should be ‘One’ in exactly the same way that he is ‘One with the Father’. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father, and how we should be ‘One’.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.

Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Jesus loves us as he loves himself, he died for us, rose again and sent the Holy Spirit. Thank you Lord

Could the spirit be the power of God’s love; working through the perfection of the greatest commandments?

1 Samuel 18-1, NIV version

Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself.

I am Catholic, people of many faiths and no faith are my real neighbours, how do I become as one with them?

Some thoughts to challenge the mind to think???
I love all that and agree, we need to challenge ourselves to be rid of our predudices.

The thing that stands out in the Bible, which I see was to be our greatest challenge, is that Jesus was to rerurn, to guide us unto all truth.

What you have suggested, cannot be forgotten, but what new wonders are we yet to embrace?

Regards Tony
 
Jesus prayed that we should be ‘One’ in exactly the same way that he is ‘One with the Father’. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father, and how we should be ‘One’.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.

Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Jesus loves us as he loves himself, he died for us, rose again and sent the Holy Spirit. Thank you Lord

Could the spirit be the power of God’s love; working through the perfection of the greatest commandments?

1 Samuel 18-1, NIV version

Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself.

I am Catholic, people of many faiths and no faith are my real neighbours, how do I become as one with them?

Some thoughts to challenge the mind to think???
Thank you. That addresses some Bible passages that are used as reasons for saying that Jesus is God, but not all of them.
 
Historical Jesus quests: Jesus was a, b, c, d ... ak, al, am ... df, dg, dh ... anything that anyone wants him to be as long as he doesn't have authority from God ... but that would mean that he pretty much didn't say or do anything that he says and does in the gospels, which is a bit of a stretch. What to do, what to do ...

Carrier (and Next Quest) Jesus - FTFY

The Next Quest: Carrierism without Carrier
 
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Hi Longfellow –

Reflections on your thoughts ...
I think that part of what God wants for us, because it’s good for us, is to be learning together to live together the way he says to live.
I think that what the 'God' or whatever the Utmost is in all religions wants is for us to live in It.

Part of that is loving submission to his will.
I wonder if the idea of 'submission' is something we always project onto God?
I think what God wants is for us to embrace Him in love, as He does us.

There's no 'submission' in love, it's all 'gift'.

Jesus is everything that God is, for that purpose. Our relationship with him is our relationship with God. At the same he models the relationship that we can have with God as our father. For that purpose he is not the same person as the Father. The relationship between them is a genuine interpersonal relationship.
I agree with all that, apart from the 'is for that purpose' – but then you'd expect that of me!
 
More thoughts from your thoughts ...
The Holy Spirit is God in the world, doing things in the world, that be let’s us help him do because that’s good for us.
It's a patristic aphorism that the Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father, and all this happens in the soul.

Paul says:
"For you did not receive again a spirit of slavery to fear (submission), but rather received a spirit of adoption in which we cry, "Abba, Father!" (a cry of love, not submission) The Spirit itself testifies along with our spirit that we are God's children." (Romans 8:15-16)

Thinking about it ... Christ loves the Father, but submits to the world, because love is the way of the father, violence is the way of the world.

Which led me to the confrontation at Jesus' arrest:
"And look: One of those with Jesus, stretching forth a hand, pulled out his sword and, striking the chief priest’s slave, cut off his ear. Then Jesus says to him, 'Return your sword to its place; for all who take up a sword (live according to the world) will be destroyed by a sword (the world). Or do you imagine that I cannot ask my Father, and he will at this very moment place more than twelve legions of angels beside me?" (Matthew 26:51-53)

That latter is a very worldly response, to crush opposition but overwhelming force.

Thanks for your thoughts!
 
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