purgatory does the bible teach it ?

Thomas said:
Yep. And part of that orientation, I think, is a realisation and understanding of our past, our mortal history ... of what we were actually like, especially compared to our proper nature, and what that is like ... and that aspect is what purgatory is all about.
Thomas said:
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I think the pain is the 'hanging on' to that illusory self-image, to look back and cry "I didn't know, it's not my fault!" will not suffice.

Indeed, there seems to be a variance of degrees of loss depending on what we have done with what we have been given.

Luke 12:47-50 said:
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


The passage is obviously parablic, but it serves to illustrate the point. The 'stripes' I don't view as actual corporal punishment, but I would gather it is the sense of shame and remorse that we will go through for not upholding our end of the bargain (salvation, of course, is paid for, but none-the-less we have a duty to God). We are punished by our sense of failure in areas we ought to have obeyed God better.

I wonder is there is some kind of summation point where we are judged where our whole life is somehow algebraically weighed and the result of the pluses and minuses will determine our standing in the purging process. I'm not sure how this works.

For someone who is a criminal all their life and near the end repents and turns to God and receives the necessary forgiveness through the blood, will nevertheless be subject to a more intense purification than say someone who has been faithful for most of their lives. Or is it possible to gain 'instant karma'?

During the course of our natural life, the goal is echoed in I Peter 1:7, whereby our faith ought to emerge as gold.

“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:”
 

it seems that the tradition of men has been given aurthority over what the bible REALLYteaches and it has misled many :)

Of course, it takes a tradition of men to determine that authority, and JW's are no different. They've certainly changed their mind on a few things over the past hundred years or so. :)
 
Hi Dondi —

Indeed, there seems to be a variance of degrees of loss depending on what we have done with what we have been given.

And various degrees of reward, some might speculate.

I wonder is there is some kind of summation point where we are judged where our whole life is somehow algebraically weighed and the result of the pluses and minuses will determine our standing in the purging process. I'm not sure how this works.
There are references to this in the teachings of many traditions. Notably 'the weighing of the heart against a feather' in Egyptian eschatology, and Daniel's warning at Balthasar's feast "you have been weighed in thr balance and found wanting."

Modernity tends to view this as a cut and dried decision — at the judgement, it's either heaven or hell. The fathers were far more discriminatory, assuming it made something of a mockery of justice to suppose that it was either one thing or the other, with no intermediate degree. Whilst perhaps not entirely right, this aspect has tended to drop from modern eschatalogical discussion, as the language of symbol has been lost.

There is always the danger of reading too much into texts (eisegesis), and the Fathers were all prone to symbolic speculation ... Origen more than most ... but nevertheless the Fathers did investigated some very thorny issues, and gave some quite startling resolutions, which without being references nevertheless underpins a lot of later thinking.

In the Catholic Tradition, pagan philosophy is not deemed necessarily wrong or evil, far from it. So when, for example, my old sparring partner Wil sees in the Sacraments nothing more than the accrual of or borrowing from pagan traditions, I see it as the Christian Sacrament removes the veils of ignorance, that intimations of truth are revealed in their essence, and so Chritianity gathers up everything that is good to itself, as it should, so pagan traditions are absorbed, subsumed and transfigured as a deeper and yet deeper spiritual reality is revealed, in that same way that human reason is illuminated by revelation.

Pagan religions are nature religions, and there is every reason to assume that the cycles and rhythms of nature will manifest in Christianity, and the Christian liturgical cycle ... it would be more remarkable if they did not. But Christianity is a supernatural religion, so there should be no surprise that we see in the Myasteries those things which are occluded to the unaided reasoning faculty.

Drawing from many streams then, ands following the cycles of nature, I think there is much we might reliably speculate with regard to the eschaton even though, at the end of the day, we are all in the dark.

+++

Back to the point:

There is an exegesis of Matthew 13:23
"But he that received the seed upon good ground, is he that heareth the word, and understandeth, and beareth fruit, and yieldeth the one an hundredfold, and another sixty, and another thirty."
The Fathers believed that "for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, "In my Father's house are many mansions" John 14:2."

For someone who is a criminal all their life and near the end repents and turns to God and receives the necessary forgiveness through the blood, will nevertheless be subject to a more intense purification than say someone who has been faithful for most of their lives. Or is it possible to gain 'instant karma'?
Taking the story of the robber on the cross, we would have to say 'yes'.

What the fathers did insist on however, which is something that we might overlook, is that he who receives 30-fold is not 'worse off' than he who receives 60 or 100 — his bliss is 100% according to his nature.

There will be no jealousy, no sense of loss-and-gain, no comparison of one state with another — all will be just as they should be, all will be in the fullness according to their given nature. In the symbol of the choir, every voice will find its right place.

The big toe might not play a great part in our activities, but you try walking without it.

Thomas
 
Hi, Am I the only one that has a problem with "church fathers". How can a group of men mine, in a few hundred years, all sort of new Biblical fact and ideas from writings which have existed for thousands of years, in which the owners of these writings, who studied them for thousands of years, never claim such fact and ideas?
.02
Joe
 
Hi, Am I the only one that has a problem with "church fathers".
Sounds like it. ;)

How can a group of men mine, in a few hundred years, all sort of new Biblical fact and ideas from writings which have existed for thousands of years...
I assume you're talking about Old Testament exegesis then.

The same way that Rabbis have mined all sorts of news facts and ideas, before them ... by close attention, investigation, contemplation, prayer ... are you saying that no-one is allowed to offer any comment on anything in Scripture, that we should accept it, but don't think about it?

in which the owners of these writings, who studied them for thousands of years, never claim such fact and ideas?
You've confused me now ... who are the 'owners of these writings' ... ?[/QUOTE]

I rather think it's the other way round ... the modern world has completely lost the 'sense of Scripture' as it was traditionally understood.

Or put another way ... if the "church fathers" were around today, they'd be aghast at how mean and pitiful our modern approach to Scripture is.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Taking the story of the robber on the cross, we would have to say 'yes'.

But even taking in consideration of a last minute conversion, as demonstrated by the thief on the Cross, wouldn't you agree that the amount of faith exercised by the robber still doesn't negate the rest of his life. In other words, the thief is saved by virtue of his faith (I find it interesting, btw, that the thief recognized two things: 1) that Christ would be alive to 'remember him' and 2) that Christ would reign in a kingdom), yet there would have to be some preparation before he is fully ready to enter that kingdom. The man was used to a certain lifestyle. I hardly think 'instant karma' would be enough to dramatically change that paradigm.

This all boils down to how we get prepared for the kingdom (not in regard to salvation, of course, for that is the work of Christ. Although, even in the Christian living, the Holy Spirit is our life, assuming we are abiding). Surely, we can do a great deal to advance ourselves toward that end, but at the end of the day, how much farther along can we really achieve. Even the most pious life here would pale in comparasion to life in the Kingdom of God.

What the fathers did insist on however, which is something that we might overlook, is that he who receives 30-fold is not 'worse off' than he who receives 60 or 100 — his bliss is 100% according to his nature.

There will be no jealousy, no sense of loss-and-gain, no comparison of one state with another — all will be just as they should be, all will be in the fullness according to their given nature. In the symbol of the choir, every voice will find its right place.

There a parable that addresses this in Matthew 20:1-16, where the householder paid all the servants the same wage (one denarius), even though some worked the whole day, while others worked just one hour. The ones that worked all day seemed slighted because the others worked less time, but the householder said that they already settle on the wage.

The big toe might not play a great part in our activities, but you try walking without it.

Funny you should mention this. For the past couple of weeks I've been nursing my right 'ring' toe (for lack of a better description), which got injured and infected recently while swimming off an island in the Philippines (I waited to get back to the States before seeing a doctor. Didn't like the medical facilities there). Anyway, I can tell you that that toe received my fullest attention whilst healing up. Strange how such a seemingly insignificant part of the body can change your whole manner of living.
 
Of course, it takes a tradition of men to determine that authority, and JW's are no different. They've certainly changed their mind on a few things over the past hundred years or so. :)[/quot




And i am glad to say that it is always because of a better understanding of what the bible really teaches.


And all of their beliefs are inline with the bible ..


and never at odds with the bible .:)
 
Hi Thomas,
Purgatory is presented (by the "church fathers") as something that has always existed. Am I right? What troubles me is, the rabbis never claimed there was such a place. So has G!D made a new thing, and told only the "church fathers" that there is now a new realm in the heavens for people to be "purged" from their sin?
Since the Bible, NT or OT does not suggest there is such a place, it leaves me wondering where the idea comes from.

The same way that Rabbis have mined all sorts of news facts and ideas, before them ... by close attention, investigation, contemplation, prayer ... are you saying that no-one is allowed to offer any comment on anything in Scripture, that we should accept it, but don't think about it?
I rather think it's the other way round ... the modern world has completely lost the 'sense of Scripture' as it was traditionally understood.
Or put another way ... if the "church fathers" were around today, they'd be aghast at how mean and pitiful our modern approach to Scripture is.

Thomas
I rather think it's the other way round ... the modern world has completely lost the 'sense of Scripture' as it was traditionally understood.
Or put another way ... if the "church fathers" were around today, they'd be aghast at how mean and pitiful our modern approach to Scripture is.

The same way that Rabbis have mined all sorts of news facts and ideas, before them ... by close attention, investigation, contemplation, prayer ... are you saying that no-one is allowed to offer any comment on anything in Scripture, that we should accept it, but don't think about it?

Hmmmm :cool:

Joe
 
GOD’S​
WORD VERSUS PURGATORY

But does the Bible teach that man has a soul separate and distinct from his body that lives on after he dies?

Does it teach that man is conscious after death?

Does it teach that there is such a place as a burning hell of eternal torment?


No!​
 
Actually, what the Bible teaches about the soul conflicts with the teachings of purgatory and hellfire

The Bible often speaks of the death of souls. "The soul that is sinning—it itself will die." (Ezekiel 18:4; compare the King James and Catholic Douay versions.)

According to the Bible, the dead are unconscious, unable to feel pain. "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

its best to stick to what the bible REALLY teaches:)
Yes, and in that light, it is paramount to remember that there is the NT with the OT, and the NT is specific about the dead not being asleep, or null.
 
GOD’S​
WORD VERSUS PURGATORY

But does the Bible teach that man has a soul separate and distinct from his body that lives on after he dies?

Does it teach that man is conscious after death?

Does it teach that there is such a place as a burning hell of eternal torment?


No!
Yes, it does teach all of the above:
 
And where did the church "fathers" get the idea of purgatory since it is not to be found in the Bible?

From pagan sources.
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia the pagans had a belief similar to purgatory.



Common sense does not demand a purgatory. Common sense rejects it!

So if man is a soul rather than having a soul, and if that soul is mortal, and if at death his thoughts perish, then how could man be conscious in purgatory after death?

The idea of atoning for one’s sins by suffering after death, or even in this present life, is foreign to the Scriptures.

Is​
further punishment for sin exacted after one’s death?

Rom. 6:7, NAB: "A man who is dead has been freed from sin." (Kx: "Guilt makes no more claim on a man who is dead.")


According​
to the Bible, by what means is purification from sins accomplished?

1 John 1:7, 9, JB: "If we live our lives in the light, as he [God] is in the light, we are in union with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. . . . If we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong ["all our wrong-doing is purged away," Kx]."


Rev. 1:5, JB: "Jesus Christ . . . loves us and has washed away our sins with his blood."​
 
And where did the church "fathers" get the idea of purgatory since it is not to be found in the Bible?​


From pagan sources.
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia the pagans had a belief similar to purgatory.



Common sense does not demand a purgatory. Common sense rejects it!


So if man is a soul rather than having a soul, and if that soul is mortal, and if at death his thoughts perish, then how could man be conscious in purgatory after death?

The idea of atoning for one’s sins by suffering after death, or even in this present life, is foreign to the Scriptures.


Is
further punishment for sin exacted after one’s death?

Rom. 6:7, NAB: "A man who is dead has been freed from sin." (Kx: "Guilt makes no more claim on a man who is dead.")



According


to the Bible, by what means is purification from sins accomplished?

1 John 1:7, 9, JB: "If we live our lives in the light, as he [God] is in the light, we are in union with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. . . . If we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong ["all our wrong-doing is purged away," Kx]."


Rev. 1:5, JB: "Jesus Christ . . . loves us and has washed away our sins with his blood."


What is with you? This is a Jehovah's Witness? NO THANK YOU. Your's is not the type I would want to be around, even if I didn't know God.

Q

 
What is with you? This is a Jehovah's Witness? NO THANK YOU. Your's is not the type I would want to be around, even if I didn't know God.

Q

[/left]
bringing what the bible really teaches to the fore is what all christians should be doing and yes it is Jehovahs witnesses, and after all the bible is the aurthority.


but many do not like what the bible really teaches, that is not Jehovahs witnesses fault .


and the inspired word of God the bible, is after all GOD BREATHED .



so maybe what is wrong with mee in the eyes of others ,is the fact that i stick to what the bible REALLY teaches .

and make it known .

And one of those things is that the bible does NOT teach a puratory



so what is wrong with mee............ i stick to the bible and what it teaches .
 
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