Miracles, THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE

bananabrain said:
avinash - do you then demand that all religion submit to the judgement of scientific validation to check that our messengers aren't "fantasised"? because, i can tell you, such a validation is by definition impossible - which is perhaps why some people insist that religion justify itself in these terms. it's the old modernist argument - and people's spiritual lives are the poorer for falling for it. resorting to a metaphor, could you justify art or music scientifically? these all have "rules" of sorts, "texts" and "messengers" - yet we do not know the name of the "artist" who built, say, the reclining buddha or the statues at abu simbel, or who wrote all those "traditional" folk songs.

Namaskar,

Let me be more specific. In Christianity it is claimed that the authors of the New Testament were writing under the influence of the "Holy Spirit" (an aspect of God). So here the Holy Spirit is the "messenger" fantasized behind the very fallible authors/redactors. In another religion this function is taken up by a special angel who transfers the message "directly from God" to the person(s) writing down the text.

These fantasized messengers are designed to prevent the believers from analysing the texts for their practical value as spiritual instructions. Since the whole set of texts is to be accepted as the "word of God", rational considerations are not to interfere with their acceptance.

If you see such religious writings as a form of art, then that is fine with me. Like empty churches and monestaries they have their cultural value. But in my path, spirituality is a practical affair that is intimitely connected with how well people and their society function. Just consider that Adolf Hitler was a very ardent practitioner of spirituality. He didn't see spirituality as a romantic or cultural affair but abused the powers that come with it for his selfish motives (which eventually caused his downfall).

So the real spiritual teachings (like e.g. those of Jesus) are very powerful but not so the rest of the religious writings. If you know a little more about the science it is not so difficult to seperate the two. There are no messengers unless you see the original mystics who gave the real spiritual teachings as "messengers" (such as Jesus).
 
Mohsin said:
Lets rethink what you want me to think. According to me, one person, one book still practical today, several of Hadiths, clear signs from Allah(the Almighty God), and well, Allah(the Almighty God) Himself, always there.
The fact that you attribute so much to miracles and signs says that you don't have enough faith in what is already given. Why does he need to produce miracles if his existence is obvious. Why can't it just be as simple as seeing his face.

For you, it might be an illusion, but for me, something important.
Excellent point. It's all about perceptions, not absolute truthes.

About History speaking for itslef, I want to ask you, why always point at the wrong guys? Saddam did not follow the teachings of Islam, several many points that I can mention. He was not a good Muslim, so why mentioning him?
Because he is a good example of loyalty, or faith, gone wrong. Do you want me just to look at the good examples? This is prejudice is it not? This metaphor had nothing to do with Islam, I was talking about the 'virtue' or honour being flawed.
As a matter of fact, it is used a lot in Islam. They say the reason Osama bin Laden is so successful is because he is so charismatic. You always hear of militants being 'loyal' to their extremist cleric or terrorist head. It is a very dangerous path to tread.

But we have been given permission to follow Islam and if our leaders go against it or make us go against it, we can object.
But do you? Mostly not. I saw how fickle the Iraqis were when America toppled Hussein's regime. They leave their past like rats fleeing a sinking ship. This is why loyalty is so highly revered in middle eastern culture, because it is so rare.
 
Do you then demand that all religion submit to the judgement of scientific validation to check that our messengers aren't "fantasised"? because, i can tell you, such a validation is by definition impossible.
So how do you determine the validity, if not by scrutinising it under the rules of this world, which we have come to call science?
 
Regards to all

samabudhi said:
The fact that you attribute so much to miracles and signs says that you don't have enough faith in what is already given. Why does he need to produce miracles if his existence is obvious. Why can't it just be as simple as seeing his face.

I attribute to the miracles because it helps me increase my faith. It also proves that Islam is not a blind belief, but faith along with evidence, along with proof. I only came to know about many of the miracles that I mentioned of about three to four years ago. I regarded myself as a good Muslims them, I reagrd myself as an even better Muslim today. You will InshAllah(by the will of Allah) see some more good miracles in this thread shortly.


Also, when I read your comment/question , it immediately reminded me of few verses of the Qur'an:
_______________________________

[2.208] O you who believe! enter into submission one and all and do not follow the footsteps of Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
[2.209] But if you slip after clear arguments have come to you, then know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[2.210] They do not wait aught but that Allah should come to them in the shadows of the clouds along with the angels, and the matter has (already) been decided; and (all) matters are returned to Allah.
_______________________________

It indicates the doubts that you have shown, that many people would be of good faith or turn to faith only when Allah(the Almighty God) would Himeself come to them. The verse however also indicates that this kind of faith would be no good then as according to the scholars of Qur'an, the verse is about the Judgement day, when all matters would be have already been decided.

Also, a few more points that I want to bring forward as to why we cannot see Allah(the Almighty God).

It is an attribute of Allah(the Almighty God) that no one can imagine Him. Allah is beyond our imagination. If we draw a mental picture of God, the picture imagined/drawn would not be God. You cannot compare God with anything. As soon as you do that, what you compared is not God.
This attribute is given in the Qur'an in Ch. No. 112, Verse No. 4 ‘There is nothing like unto Him’. A Similar message is given in the Holy Qur’an in Surah Anam, Ch.No.6, V.No.103…‘No vision can grasp Him, but He grasps all vision, He is beyond comprehension, yet He is acquainted with all things’

Secondly, it is a good thing that we cannot see Allah(the Almighty God). It is good for us that Allah does not reveal Himself to us. May be Jews can better clerify as to what happened when Moses(P.B.U.H) wanted to see Allah(the Almighty God). The Qur'an describes the event as follows:
_______________________________

[7.143] And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord! show me (Thyself), so that I may look upon Thee. He said: You cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers.
_______________________________

If a mountain cannot even bear even a sight of Allah(the Almighty God), what would remian of us if we were at the mountain's place, if we were to get just a glimpse of Allah(the Almighty God)? I hope that I am able to satisfy your question.
 
Mohsin said:
I attribute to the miracles because it helps me increase my faith. It also proves that Islam is not a blind belief, but faith along with evidence, along with proof. I only came to know about many of the miracles that I mentioned of about three to four years ago. I regarded myself as a good Muslims them, I reagrd myself as an even better Muslim today. You will InshAllah(by the will of Allah) see some more good miracles in this thread shortly.
"Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong. Logic dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man; claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not rational.

The unfortunate circumstance that many will never become un-yoked from the traditions of their forefathers, perpetuating a chaotic state is applicable to many monotheistic religions that have become the culmination of their own dogma and politics. This is the 21st Century yet many of our religious beliefs are still back in the Stone Age. We have outgrown beliefs in various Gods, now it is time to outgrow belief in a dictatorial God who controls, condemns and physically or spiritually punishes those who do not do his bidding. The true “God” is a Spiritual Unity that exists in a spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything on earth or in the universe. God is interested in and is involved in humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. God guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with the Spirit of God is for our, not God's benefit. ALL roads that lead to God will bring the soul to its destination. God is a God for ALL & too large to fit into any one religion.". - - -Kurt Kawohl
 
I said:
In fact, this whole threads has a strange motivation to it - as if the Qur'an cannot have any worth unless it is seen as miraculous - that Islam has no worth unless it is given some retroactive justification - - that every forced interpretation must be made to interpret the Quran according to contemporary ideas. A sign of someone trying to justify their own faithbecause it falls apart if they cannot?
The scientific stuff in Al Quran is very important. Whenever people used to challenge Mohammed about his authority of being a prophet (i.e. where are his miracles), he would refer to the fact that the Quran is itself miraculous.
 
robocombot said:
The scientific stuff in Al Quran is very important. Whenever people used to challenge Mohammed about his authority of being a prophet (i.e. where are his miracles), he would refer to the fact that the Quran is itself miraculous.
Salaamu Alyckum

Despite of Al Quraan still the big Miracle to all mankind ,the Messenger of Allah possesses many manifest miracles and signs demonstrating [his veracity], reaching thousands and they are well known.
You can read about some of them in this site:




 
The site I found was http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/. Thank you for any help you can provide.
Well I found some answers here .

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm


let me ask you... if a miracle is a measure of truth... what of the miracles of the various other religious traditions? are those all discounted? if so, on what basis?


A miracle is never a measure of truth . Its just a sign for people , so they dont take the prophet as some ordinary person .



In my spiritual experiences (see my signature site below) I received no instructions from God, yet it was crystal clear what my delegated task was to be. My spirit felt as if it left my body and experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I felt the greatest peace, tranquility and ecstasy. I felt a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone; many of the prophets of the bible, many historical people whom I had read about, many deceased acquaintances and relatives. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought was interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out before us like a vast expanse with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.


I was shown that everything in the universe follows the universal laws which separate the physical and the spiritual existence. Energy is power, vigor, liveliness, intensity. It is a measurable quantity, without reference to its nature or source. Energy, or life is a fundamental attribute and function of the universe. Our bodies build up and harness a minute amount of spiritual energy that is transferred into the spiritual dimension upon our death. Then this spiritual energy is limitless because it lacks resistance and this energy can assimilate as a unity or be separate and individual. It is this spiritual energy that is God. It is a composition of souls, the spiritual intellect of the universe of every soul that has passed from the physical universe into the spiritual universe. It can create a spiritual existence of beauty that is beyond the imagination…my spirit has experienced it.

Please note that in the picture (see my signature site below) it shows an artist’s rendering of part of my spiritual experiences. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and our varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film. My spirit witnessed the beginning of physical rational life in the universe, the bonding of the first two souls that was the beginning of a spiritual unity. My spirit witnessed the development of mankind and man’s first perception of God from the story of Adam & Eve.


My spirit witnessed Abraham & Moses, their quest into spirituality, their interaction with God and the beginning of Judaism. My spirit witnessed God’s interaction with Jesus & his life and death. My spirit witnessed the beginning of Christianity & the senseless killings in the Crusades. My spirit witnessed God’s interaction with Muhammad, the beginning of the Islam faith & the Arab struggles. My spirit witnessed the senseless Twin Towers tragedy of 9-11-01.

In this 21st Century the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are contributing causes toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Can logic & rationality be brought into the belief in God and become a reality so that all killings for and in the name of God will eventually cease? God is a God for ALL & too large to fit into any one religion.
What U experienced was your astral body . For that U dont have to be a prophet . A lot of Sufis , Monks & Yogis do it .

According to sufism , a human is made up of 3 different bodies . Rooh ( soul ) , Nasma/Hamzaad/Jism-e-misali ( astral body ) , & the physical body that we all see . The anxieties , depressions , uneasinesses & sorrows that we feel R a part of this physical body . So when your senses leave your physical body , U leave all those unhappy fellings behind . Another problem with physical body is restriction of senses . With astral body , time-space restrictions R much lesser . And U arnt restricted by your personality/ego either . Thatswhy U experience everything as being one .

"Experiencing God" is what your mind tries to make out of it ( the feeling of infinity , oneness & sorrowlesness ) . When in reality it is only "freedom from material body" .



Let’s bring Muhammad into today & nobody had heard of Muhammad before. Muhammad tells people in the year 2004 that an angel visits him everyday & tells him God’s message. Would anyone believe him?
For that he will be given Miracles . Things that will be impossible to imitate in the current time frame . Maybe something like the cure of AIDS . Or some neuro-degenerative diseases . Or some "not known before" formulas of nano-technology .



Experiencing God can only be via your spirit. Physically hearing or seeing God is due to schizophrenia. I repeat. Experiencing God can only be via your spirit. Physically hearing or seeing God is due to schizophrenia.
When its all based on perception , how can U say that what U experience is not a part of your physical senses .



 
Anyways , here is another miracle :



The Qur'ân in many places challenges the people to produce a sûrah like it. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevent or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur'ân. This article is devoted to deal with one aspect of the Qur'ânic challenge of produce a sûrah like it. What is meant by sûrah like it with respect to the Arabic prose and poetry?

The verses of the Qur'ân dealing with the challenge are given below

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'ân, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'ân 17:88]

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'ân 2:23]

And this Qur'ân is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (all that exists).


Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'ân)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'ân) if they are truthful. [Qur'ân 52:33-34]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'ân)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged sûrah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'ân 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a sûrah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'ân 10:37-38]


cAbdur Rahîm Green mentions that:

These are the sixteen al-Bihâr (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawîl, al-Bassit, al-Wâfir, al-Kamîl, ar-Rajs, al-Khafîf, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madîd, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihâr, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Now I think at least the Christian's "Holy spirit" that makes you talk in tongues, part of your "Tri-Unity" of God should be able to inspire one of you with that!

To begin with; the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the 'rhyme'. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihâr, literally meaning 'The Seas'. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihâr viz; at-Tawîl, al-Bassit, al-Wâfir, al-Kamîl, ar-Rajs, al-Khafîf, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madîd, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall's book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic.[1] He discusses al-Kamîl, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafîf and al-Madîd briefly.[2]

The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called "rhymed prose" or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.[3] One of the most famous speeches involving sajc is that of Hajjâj bin Yûsuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa'idah in pre-Islamic times.

So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahîm Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihâr, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed

The Qur'ân is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]

It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihâr.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'ân could not even produce the smallest sûrah of its like. The Qur'ân's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'ân inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:

Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.

It is a well known fact that the Qur'ân was revealed in seven ahruf (or seven forms) to facilitate greater understanding of it among the Arabs who had different dialects. This was also to challenge them on their own grounds to produce a sûrah like that of the Qur'ân. The challenge became more obvious when none of the seven major tribes could imitate it even in their own dialects as no one could claim that it was difficult to imitate due to it not being in their own dialect.[6]

What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'ân?

E H Palmer, as early as 1880, recognized the unique style of the Qur'ân. But he seem to have been wavering between two thoughts. He writes in the Introduction to his translation of the Qur'ân:

That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'ân itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence.[7]

The famous Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'ân. In his words:

...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.[8]

And in some other place, talking about the Prophet(P) and the Qur'ân, he states:

Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.[9]

As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style..... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.[10]

On the influence of the Qur'ân on Arabic literature Gibb says:

The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society.[11]

 
As the Qur'ân itself says:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur'ân 2:23-24)

Lastly, the beautiful style of the Qur'ân is admired even by the Arab Christians:

The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.[12]

The above sentences speak of themselves. Summing up: Within the Arabic literature, either poetry or prose, there is nothing comparable to the Qur'ân. Muslims throughout the centuries are united upon the its inimitability.

There is also a talk by Christian missionaries that there are grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'ân. In retort, it can be mentioned that the Arab contemporaries of Muhammad(P) were most erudite and proficient in the idiosyncrasies of Arabic speech; and hence, if they had found any grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'ân, they would have revealed it when Muhammad(P) challenged them with to do so. Therefore, since they did not take up his challenge on this issue, we can be rest assured that no such grammatical 'errors' exist in the Qur'ân.

Indeed the grammatical errors claimed by Christian missionaries have been already discussed and refuted in a reputed journal.[13] It turns out that lack of knowledge of intricate constructions in classical Arabic by Christian missionaries gave rise to so-called grammatical 'errors'.

I'jaz al-Qur'ân (Or Inimitability Of The Qur'ân) & Its Exposition

I'jaz literally means "the rendering incapable, powerless". It is the concept relating to the miraculous nature of the Qur'ân. What consitutes this miracle is a subject that has engaged Muslims scholars for centuries. By the early part of the third century AH (ninth century CE), the word i'jaz had come to mean that quality of the Qur'ân that rendered people incapable of imitating the book or any part; in content and form. By the latter part of that century, the word had become the technical term, and the numerous definitions applied to it after the tenth century have shown little divergence from the key concepts of the inimitability of the Qur'ân and the inability of human beings to match it even challenged (tahiddi).[14]

Thus, the Islamic doctrine of i'jaz al-Qur'ân consists in the belief that the Qur'ân is a miracle (mu'jizah) bestowed on Muhammad(P). Both terms, i'jaz and mu'jizah come from the same verbal root. While mu'jizah is the active principle of a'jaza, i'jaz is its verbal noun.[15]

The early theological discussions on i'jaz introduced the hypothesis of sarfah ("turning away") and argued that the miracle consisted of God's turning the competent away from taking up the challenge of imitating the Qur'ân. The implication of sarfah is that the Qur'ân otherwise could be imitated. However, cAbd al-Jabbâr (d. 1025 CE), the Mu'tazilite theologian rejected sarfah because of its obvious weaknesses.

cAbd al-Jabbâr rejects the doctrine of sarfah for two main reasons. Firstly, because it contradicts the verse of the Qur'ân stating that neither jinn nor human can rival the Qur'ân, and secondly because it makes a miracle of something other than the Qur'ân, i.e., the sarfah, the prohibition from production, and not the Qur'ân itself. In addition to this, according to 'Abd al-Jabbar, the doctrine of sarfah displays four major weaknesses:

It ignores the well-known fact that the Arabs of Muhammad's time had acknowledged the superior quality of speech of the Qur'ân;

It is in direct conflict with the meaning of the verses of the Challenge;

It implies that the Qur'ân is not a miracle; and

It asserts that the Arabs were out of their minds (khuruj 'an al-'aql).
This doctrine, in fact, implies that they could have produced a rival to the Qur'ân, but simply decided against doing so. It effectively calls into question either their motives or their sanity. Therefore, according to cAbd al-Jabbâr the correct interpretation of sarfah is that the motives to rival the Qur'ân disappeared (insarafah) because of the recognition of the impossibility of doing so.[16]

cAbd al-Jabbâr insisted on the unmatchable quality of the Qur'ân's extra-ordinary eloquence and unique stylist perfection. In his work al-Mughni (The Sufficient Book), he argued that eloquence (fasâhah) resulted from the excellence of both meaning and wording, and he explained that there were degrees of excellence depending on the manner in which words were chosen and arranged in any literary text, the Qur'ân being the highest type.[17]

al-Baqillanî (d. 1013 CE), in his systematic and comprehensive study entitled I'jaz al-Qur'ân upheld the rhetorically unsurpassable style of the Qur'ân, but he did not consider this to be a necessary argument in the favour of the Qur'ân's uniqueness and emphasized instead the content of revelation.

The choice and arrangement of words, referred to as nazm was the focus of discussion by al-Jahîz, al-Sijistanî (d. 928 CE), al-Bakhî (d. 933 CE) and Ibn al-Ikhshid (d. 937 CE). al-Rummanî and his contemporary al-Khattabî (d. 998 CE) discussed the psychological effect of nazm of the Qur'ân in their al-Nukat fî I'jaz al-Qur'ân and Bayan I'jaz al-Qur'ân, respectively.

The author who best elaborated and systematized the theory of nazm in his analysis of the i'jaz is cAbd al-Qahir al-Jurjanî (d. 1078 CE) in his Dalâ'il al-I'jaz. His material was further organized by Fakhr ad-Din al-Razî (d. 1209) in his Nihâyat al-I'jaz fî Dirâyat al-I'jaz and put to practical purposes by al-Zamakhsharî (d. 1144 CE) in his exegesis of the Qur'ân entitled al-Kashasâf, rich in rhetorical analysis of the Qur'ânic style.[18]

Hardly anything new has been added by later authors.

Is The Bible Inimitable?

Anyone who has read the history of the Bible as a text as well as the constantly changing canon at the whims of the leaders of the Church and some 300,000+ variant readings in the New Testament itself would suggest that no book in history enjoyed such as reputation. The process of serious editing through which the Christian Bible went through is unparalleled in its almost 2000 year history. This would itself make the Bible an inimitable book.

As far as the language of the Bible and its stylistic perfection is concerned, the Bible does not make any such claim. Therefore, it not does challenge the mankind of produce a few verses or a chapter like it. Further, it is a Christian claim that the Bible contains scribal and linguistic errors. The language in which the Greek New Testament was written is demotic Greek which itself has little or no regard for grammatical rules of classical Greek. Comparing the stylistic perfection of the Qur'ân versus stylistic imperfection of the Bible, von Grunebaum states:

In contrast to the stylistic perfection of the Kur'an with the stylistic imperfections of the older Scriptures the Muslim theologian found himself unknowingly and on purely postulative grounds in agreement with long line of Christian thinkers whose outlook on the Biblical text is best summed up in Nietzsche's brash dictum that the Holy Ghost wrote bad Greek.[19]

Futher, he elaborates the position of Western theologians on the canonization process and composition of the Bible:

The knowledge of the Western theologian that the Biblical books were redacted by different writers and that they were, in many cases, accessible to him only in (inspired) translation facilitated admission of formal imperfections in Scripture and there with lessened the compulsive insistence on its stylistic authority. Christian teaching, leaving the inspired writer, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, free in matters of style, has provided no motivation to seek an exact correlation between the revealed text on the one hand and grammar and rhetoric on the other. It thereby relieved the theologian and the critic from searching for a harmony between two stylistic worlds, which at best would yield an ahistoric concept of literary perfection and at worst would prevent anything resembling textual and substantive criticism of Revelation....

In Christianity, besides, the apology for the "low" style of the Bible is merely a part of educational problem - what to do with secular erudition within Christianity; whereas in Islam, the central position of the Kur'an, as the focal point and justification of grammatical and literary studies, was theoretically at least, never contested within the believing community.[20]

That pretty much sums up the Bible, its stylistic perfection (or the lack of it!) and the position of Western theologians.


peace...!













 
Salaam Farhan,

thank you for the post.

farhan said:
Anyways , here is another miracle :


So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihâr, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.
that's the challenge? it is a bit disengenous on it's face since to stay within the guidelines of Arabic langauge is going to be difficult for beings that don't speak Arabic.

however... when this challenge is brought forth, i counter with Tao Te Ching and 1,000 Words on the Gold Pill, the Diamond Cutter Sutra and so forth.

yet... none of them are in Arabic, so they would fail your "challenge" on their face.

not all that great of a miracle if you have to confine the test to Arabic, in my view.

What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'ân?
what is this term i keep hearing Muslims use, "orientalist" does that mean to indicate someone that studies the Orient, or as we call it these days, Asia? i suspect that it means something else given the rather... let's say, unsavory way in which these Asianists are spoken about.


As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom.
ah, so it's like the Tipitaka, the Tao Te Ching and the Vedas.. neat. of course, in that vein, it is also like Canterbury Tales in that it is a unique writing that stands by itself... hmm....

i suppose... that my religion could make the same challenge. write a Gatha that compares with the originals and all of that...and must be written in Classical Sanskrit. Good luck with that ;)
 
Salam, & thanks for your post .

that's the challenge? it is a bit disengenous on it's face since to stay within the guidelines of Arabic language is going to be difficult for beings that don't speak Arabic.

however... when this challenge is brought forth, i counter with Tao Te Ching and 1,000 vocabulary on the Gold Pill, the Diamond Cutter Sutra and so forth.

yet... none of them are in Arabic, so they would fail your "challenge" on their face.

not all that great of a miracle if you have to confine the test to Arabic, in my view.


Hmmm.... Well the problem is that Quran was revealed in arabic . Like any masterpiece of poetry , when it's translated into any other language , only the meanings can be translated , while the rhythm & the feeling is lost . The challenge has to be confined with Arabic is because if U translate it into English, then the immense poetic craft is lost. Now what is left is plain sentences, that are easily imitable. Even I can write sentences like a translation.

Secondly the challenge was given to Arabs , at a time when there were two crafts that were practiced by elites , warfare techniques & poetry . Since fighting is more physical than mental , so poetry was the best mental craft of that time . A lot of poets gave up when Mohammad recited verses from Quran in front of them (keeping in mind that he never got any education , & creating poetic masterpieces needs a lot of it ) . They said " What is it ?? its not poetry , its not rhyme , its not speech , its not magic . A man can never produce anything like it . It must be from God ". Its like when Moses showed his miracles to the sorcerers in Pharaoh’s palace , they gave up saying " we R the best in this craft & we know that a human cant do it , so it must be from the God ".

And the challenge here is not to produce best of poetry , but to produce three lines that dont follow any of the grammatical rules of that language , & still be meaningful . Of course with such a challenge , U have to take the standards of the same language into consideration , not some other language .

Thirdly a translation is not the word of God , its the work of man . So if U imitate it , U R imitating human work , not divine .



what is this term i keep hearing Muslims use, "orientalist" does that mean to indicate someone that studies the Orient, or as we call it these days, Asia? i suspect that it means something else given the rather... let's say, unsavory way in which these Asianists are spoken about.



Well it means any western who specializes in eastern thought . Sometimes they R accused of unnecessarily rationalizing eastern beliefs/philosophies according to western materialistic standards

ah, so it's like the Tipitaka, the Tao Te Ching and the Vedas.. neat. of course, in that vein, it is also like Canterbury Tales in that it is a unique writing that stands by itself... hmm....

i suppose... that my religion could make the same challenge. write a Gatha that compares with the originals and all of that...and must be written in Classical Sanskrit. Good luck with that


The article was referring to the mode of speech of Quran . So R U saying that There is/was no one who is/was able to write in the grammatical structure of Tipitaka , Tao te ching or Vedas in Tibetan or Sanskrit ?? .

And I don’t think there is such thing as classical Arabic . It’s the same Arabic that is spoken today in lot of places .

Regards
-Farhan
 
Salaam Farhan,

thank you for the response.

farhan said:
Hmmm.... Well the problem is that Quran was revealed in arabic . Like any masterpiece of poetry , when it's translated into any other language , only the meanings can be translated , while the rhythm & the feeling is lost . The challenge has to be confined with Arabic is because if U translate it into English, then the immense poetic craft is lost. Now what is left is plain sentences, that are easily imitable. Even I can write sentences like a translation.


understood. my point is simply that this salient fact of the literature rules out literature that is in another language. thus, there could be verses in other langauages that compare or surpass that of Al Qur'an... however, they could not meet the challenge as set forth in Al Qur'an for the plain reason that they are not Arabic.

A lot of poets gave up when Mohammad recited verses from Quran in front of them (keeping in mind that he never got any education , & creating poetic masterpieces needs a lot of it ) .


i'm willing to stipulate to that as an article of faith. however, one does not become a successful businessman by being foolish and uneducated about things.

They said " What is it ?? its not poetry , its not rhyme , its not speech , its not magic . A man can never produce anything like it . It must be from God ". Its like when Moses showed his miracles to the sorcerers in Pharaoh’s palace , they gave up saying " we R the best in this craft & we know that a human cant do it , so it must be from the God ".


sounds a bit like Arab arrogance.. "we are the best in this craft..." without comparing their work with those of their contemporaries in other countries, this claim rings hollow. it may well be such that they were the best in the area, but that is a far cry from the statement of absolute that is claimed.

And the challenge here is not to produce best of poetry , but to produce three lines that dont follow any of the grammatical rules of that language , & still be meaningful . Of course with such a challenge , U have to take the standards of the same language into consideration , not some other language .


well... exactly. however, i've dialoged with Muslims that insist that this is true in any language that one may care to use.

Thirdly a translation is not the word of God , its the work of man . So if U imitate it , U R imitating human work , not divine .


well... last i checked Allah did not transcribe Al Qur'an, either. nevertheless, i understand it is an article of your faith that Al Qur'an is, in fact, the Word of God.


Well it means any western who specializes in eastern thought . Sometimes they R accused of unnecessarily rationalizing eastern beliefs/philosophies according to western materialistic standards


oh. ... but... Islam is not "eastern" ... it is quite "western", in my view. though perhaps we are speaking of cultural views rather than directions.


The article was referring to the mode of speech of Quran . So R U saying that There is/was no one who is/was able to write in the grammatical structure of Tipitaka , Tao te ching or Vedas in Tibetan or Sanskrit ?? .


pretty much, yes :) not to be jocular here... this is a religious view of mine, such that it is.

And I don’t think there is such thing as classical Arabic . It’s the same Arabic that is spoken today in lot of places .

Regards
-Farhan
i understand that Al Qur'an was recited in 7 distinct dialects, with the Qurasihi dialect being the perferred one for final codification of the codex. it is this "classical" Qurasihi Arabic that i'm referring to.
 
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