Mormons vs Protestants view of grace and works

[dbanks82]

In this thread I will attempt to contrast the view of mormons in regards to grace and works with that of most protestants. I am hesitant to do this in the regard that I understand there are many varying points among the protestant denominations and so I appologize upfront if you feel my generalization is inaccurate of your personal beliefs. With that being said I feel my understanding of this issue is accurate of the vast majority in particular evangelicals.

I feel we have much more in common than evangelical christians would feel comfortable admitting. We both believe that faith is how we are saved, or grace. We also believe that faith leads to works. Where we differ is when works do not follow. Anyway I have a list of questions that I hope will make this subject more clear.

Question 1 Did Christ die for the sins of man.

Mormon Answer: "yes"
Evangelical: "yes"

We both put great stress on the atonement of Jesus Christ and its impact on humanity.

Question 2 Then are all men saved?

Mormon "No"
Evangelical: "no"

We both believe that there are conditions upon salvation. We may disagree on the conditions. But we are in agreement up to this point.

Question 3 What must me do to be saved?

Mormon "Have faith in Christ"
Evangelical "Have faith in Christ"

Many will probably be shocked to see that mormons actually believe this, but it is what we believe. It is simply stated in the Bible that faith saves. So we still agree up to this points.

Question 4 What is faith?

Mormon "Faith is the assurance which men have of the existence of things which they have not seen, and the principal of action in all intelligent beings. If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them.

Evangelical " The essence of faith consists in believing and receiving what God has revealed, and may be defined as that trust in the God of the Scriptures and in Jesus Christ whom he has sent which receive Him as Lord and Savior and impels to loving obedience and good works.

There is some similarities on what we define faith as but there are some significant differences as well. But the real distinction between the two will be made evident in the next and final question.

Question 5 To be saved, do Men have to obey the commandments of the God in whom they have faith?

Mormon "Yes"
Evangelical "No"

Evangelicals belief is once you are saved you are always saved. And that good works will inevitably follow. And even when you make mistakes its ok because god is molding you into a better person. But if one somehow falls away from the faith or their lifestyle doesn't change; then they were never truly saved in the first place.

Mormons believe that faith leads to action. Mormons understand that we all make mistakes but believe God requires us to put forth effort to try and live his commandments. They believe that when we fall short they must continually repent and keep trying to make improvments in their life. Mormons are continually working toward a goal of perfection. Though they understand that this in a lofty and probably unacheivable goal they believe that god knows them as individuals and will be pleased by their efforts and gods grace will allow them to enter into gods kingdom despite their imperfections.

I hope this illustartes the similarities and differences of the two. I am making no attempt to convince you of one or the other just simply stating the differences between the two. I am sorry if you find this post long and tedious but I feel it is a complicated subject that requires detailed explanations.

 

[Quahom1]

In this thread I will attempt to contrast the view of mormons in regards to grace and works with that of most protestants. I am hesitant to do this in the regard that I understand there are many varying points among the protestant denominations and so I appologize upfront if you feel my generalization is inaccurate of your personal beliefs. With that being said I feel my understanding of this issue is accurate of the vast majority in particular evangelicals.

I feel we have much more in common than evangelical christians would feel comfortable admitting. We both believe that faith is how we are saved, or grace. We also believe that faith leads to works. Where we differ is when works do not follow. Anyway I have a list of questions that I hope will make this subject more clear.

Question 1 Did Christ die for the sins of man.

Mormon Answer: "yes"
Evangelical: "yes"

We both put great stress on the atonement of Jesus Christ and its impact on humanity.

Question 2 Then are all men saved?

Mormon "No"
Evangelical: "no"

We both believe that there are conditions upon salvation. We may disagree on the conditions. But we are in agreement up to this point.

Question 3 What must me do to be saved?

Mormon "Have faith in Christ"
Evangelical "Have faith in Christ"

Many will probably be shocked to see that mormons actually believe this, but it is what we believe. It is simply stated in the Bible that faith saves. So we still agree up to this points.

Question 4 What is faith?

Mormon "Faith is the assurance which men have of the existence of things which they have not seen, and the principal of action in all intelligent beings. If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them.

Evangelical " The essence of faith consists in believing and receiving what God has revealed, and may be defined as that trust in the God of the Scriptures and in Jesus Christ whom he has sent which receive Him as Lord and Savior and impels to loving obedience and good works.

There is some similarities on what we define faith as but there are some significant differences as well. But the real distinction between the two will be made evident in the next and final question.

Question 5 To be saved, do Men have to obey the commandments of the God in whom they have faith?

Mormon "Yes"
Evangelical "No"

Evangelicals belief is once you are saved you are always saved. And that good works will inevitably follow. And even when you make mistakes its ok because god is molding you into a better person. But if one somehow falls away from the faith or their lifestyle doesn't change; then they were never truly saved in the first place.

Mormons believe that faith leads to action. Mormons understand that we all make mistakes but believe God requires us to put forth effort to try and live his commandments. They believe that when we fall short they must continually repent and keep trying to make improvments in their life. Mormons are continually working toward a goal of perfection. Though they understand that this in a lofty and probably unacheivable goal they believe that god knows them as individuals and will be pleased by their efforts and gods grace will allow them to enter into gods kingdom despite their imperfections.

I hope this illustartes the similarities and differences of the two. I am making no attempt to convince you of one or the other just simply stating the differences between the two. I am sorry if you find this post long and tedious but I feel it is a complicated subject that requires detailed explanations.

I am assuming that "Catholics" are protestant from your point of view?

 

[path_of_one]

I didn't find it tedious. It's an interesting thought exercise to see how I would respond.

I would say...
Yes, Christ died for the sins of humankind. He was the demonstration of the grace of God, and the unification of humanity and the Divine.

Yes, all people are saved. But they don't all realize it. And as long as we aren't aware that we are saved and in God, then we continue to suffer under the illusion that we aren't. How does this differ? Well, it proposes that God is supreme (indeed, the only thing, really), and without God, nothing can be. Therefore, God is in all things, even if that being does not recognize God in him/her.

What must I do to be saved? and What is faith?
Everyone and everything is already saved, but we will continue to suffer until we become aware of it. Our responsibility is not to save ourselves, either through works or through belief. It is not the belief in Christ that saves us. As the Bible tells us, the demons believe in Christ too. It is the experience of Christ in us... and this is faith. It is not our institutions or ideas that give us this, but rather our openness to change, to the birth of awareness of Christ within us that allows us to be aware of our salvation and to be transformed.

I think part of the confusion in Christianity is how we define faith. So long as we define it as belief, it continues to be questionable how it relates to works and how someone can believe and yet be unwilling to act according to the will of God. Such equating of belief with faith also makes interfaith or even inter-denominational work difficult. So long as we think others must conform to our belief system in order to be saved, we put ourselves in a superior position and ignore our own ignorance- that is, we are not humble. We try to convert others. So long as we think others need only become aware of the grace of God, of Christ's love and light, of the teachings... then it matters not what we call these things or what religion a person comes from.

To be saved, do people have to obey the commandments of the God in whom they have faith?
Yes, but it isn't about commandments. It's about transformation leading to lives that are harmonious with God's will. Christ gave us the summary: Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. He also told us that a good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree bad fruit. We recognize a person's awareness of salvation based on the fruit of the Spirit... the fruit of the Spirit comes from the awareness of and dedicated cultivating of relationship with that Spirit.

No matter how much a person professes to believe in Christ, if that person's life is not a testimony to it, then it is hollow words... which Christ warned us about with the parable of the unclean plate and the long discussion about people who say "Lord, Lord, I did these things in your name!" while he did not know them. It is the relationship that brings evidence of awareness of salvation, not the words or taking on a particular religion.

In this manner, I would agree with the Mormon view (and, I think, if I understand it correctly, the Jewish one). We are called to work toward perfection, which is a joyous albeit difficult journey if we are aware of the grace of God, walking with the Spirit. Our journey is, no less, a perfection of ourselves (which is to me, an emptying of self and a making space for the Spirit) and a perfection of the world-- a working toward, diligently and joyfully, the Kingdom of Heaven. We are in co-creation with God and could choose better than what we collectively do. We have tremendous responsibility and yet this is only possible because of God's grace. It is a feedback loop- the more we are aware of our salvation and God's grace, the more weight of responsibility we feel for our actions and for perfecting the world. The more responsible we feel, the more we recognize the impossibility of such a task without the grace of God. The two go hand in hand.

 

[Quahom1]

I didn't find it tedious. It's an interesting thought exercise to see how I would respond.

I would say...
Yes, Christ died for the sins of humankind. He was the demonstration of the grace of God, and the unification of humanity and the Divine.

Yes, all people are saved. But they don't all realize it. And as long as we aren't aware that we are saved and in God, then we continue to suffer under the illusion that we aren't. How does this differ? Well, it proposes that God is supreme (indeed, the only thing, really), and without God, nothing can be. Therefore, God is in all things, even if that being does not recognize God in him/her.

Unfortunately that is not what the bible states. Not all are saved. Your point about the "illusion" sounds quite valid, until one day the "illusion" becomes reality. Then it is too late.

Some simply do not want to be saved, and they drown, regardless of how hard we try to help them (take it from me on this one).

 

[path_of_one]

The Bible supports both views (that people are not all saved, and that they are all saved). Like many things, it depends on where we look and how we perceive the text. This is why there is a diversity on belief about the matter in both Judaism (from what I've heard in conversation) and Christianity.

Ultimately, I lean more to the Jewish side, as I think the question of the afterlife is not as important as the question of what I'm doing right now in relationship with God. I trust the rest takes care of itself.

What I see as the good that arises from my view is that it promotes respect for other faiths and a working toward love, compassion, and practical giving for all people, and a recognition of my own limitations in judging others. My experience has been that those who believe they know how salvation works, and that this is dependent on belief in a particular institution, are often the most damaging... driving people away from all religion and all faith, literally killing others to rid the world of such spiritual dangers as other faiths, and completely ignoring the hipocrasy of their own actions.

It may turn out that not all people are saved, but my belief that every being is saved, and is, in fact, Christ itself and therefore a chance to serve Christ is (I humbly submit) a more beneficial belief in terms of how it causes me to behave toward others.

As for the illusion and the reality... who is to say which is which? I could just as easily say that all this illusion of suffering and hell will one day fall away from us, and we will see the reality... the universal energy that encompasses us all, the harmony that we are capable of if open to transformation, the love that is the creativity of the universe. It seems to me that we each live in our own illusion, and each believes it to be our own reality. Which again, leads me to think that differences in belief are irrelevant. What is more telling is differences in what we do.

What I am saying about salvation is that God's will shall be done, regardless of what people want. We cannot choose salvation, nor can we not choose it. It simply is. We can only choose (temporarily) whether or not we'll recognize it, be aware of it, do something with it.

Otherwise, it would seem that our free will trumps God's grace. I think not. I think we're unaware until we choose to be aware, and in that moment, we realize that our separation from God was an illusion all along, and that losing ourselves (our identity) was not as horrific as we thought it would be. The fear melts away and the love remains.

Your analogy of the drowning man only works if God is as limited as you are. I simply don't think God is limited. It isn't that I think we have no free will. It is that I think God, being eternal, outwaits us.

 

[dbanks82]

I am assuming that "Catholics" are protestant from your point of view?

No I don't consider catholics protestant. I am not expert on their views of salvation I just have the impression they rely on things like the sacrament and confession. Not entirely sure though.

 

[Quahom1]

No I don't consider catholics protestant. I am not expert on their views of salvation I just have the impression they rely on things like the sacrament and confession. Not entirely sure though.

Lol, good answer

 

[wil]

Not all are saved.

Some simply do not want to be saved, and they drown, regardless of how hard we try to help them (take it from me on this one).

a. maybe some are saved for later.

and b maybe some that you see as drowned are already saved and are saving others...

It may turn out that not all people are saved, but my belief that every being is saved, and is, in fact, Christ itself and therefore a chance to serve Christ is (I humbly submit) a more beneficial belief in terms of how it causes me to behave toward others.

Now that is what I'm talkin about.

Namaste

The Christ in me sees, salutes and honors the Christ in you...

Call it what you want, it doesn't matter to me.

Grace and Works...

yes you gotta do the work here on 3d, that is what we are here for to interact and do so with compassion and unconditional love...this plane of existence is the proving ground.

now if you do so and get in the right vibration...

Grace Happens

You've allowed it, opened the door, saved yourself, utilizing the understanding of the Christ within...

I and the Father are one.

UNeyeR1

I can't hurt you without hurting myself.

You are punished not for your sins but by them...

these works I've done you can do and more....

gotta love it...

Namaskar D, Q, and poo!

 

[Quahom1]

The Bible supports both views (that people are not all saved, and that they are all saved). Like many things, it depends on where we look and how we perceive the text. This is why there is a diversity on belief about the matter in both Judaism (from what I've heard in conversation) and Christianity.

Ultimately, I lean more to the Jewish side, as I think the question of the afterlife is not as important as the question of what I'm doing right now in relationship with God. I trust the rest takes care of itself.

What I see as the good that arises from my view is that it promotes respect for other faiths and a working toward love, compassion, and practical giving for all people, and a recognition of my own limitations in judging others. My experience has been that those who believe they know how salvation works, and that this is dependent on belief in a particular institution, are often the most damaging... driving people away from all religion and all faith, literally killing others to rid the world of such spiritual dangers as other faiths, and completely ignoring the hipocrasy of their own actions.

It may turn out that not all people are saved, but my belief that every being is saved, and is, in fact, Christ itself and therefore a chance to serve Christ is (I humbly submit) a more beneficial belief in terms of how it causes me to behave toward others.

As for the illusion and the reality... who is to say which is which? I could just as easily say that all this illusion of suffering and hell will one day fall away from us, and we will see the reality... the universal energy that encompasses us all, the harmony that we are capable of if open to transformation, the love that is the creativity of the universe. It seems to me that we each live in our own illusion, and each believes it to be our own reality. Which again, leads me to think that differences in belief are irrelevant. What is more telling is differences in what we do.

What I am saying about salvation is that God's will shall be done, regardless of what people want. We cannot choose salvation, nor can we not choose it. It simply is. We can only choose (temporarily) whether or not we'll recognize it, be aware of it, do something with it.

Otherwise, it would seem that our free will trumps God's grace. I think not. I think we're unaware until we choose to be aware, and in that moment, we realize that our separation from God was an illusion all along, and that losing ourselves (our identity) was not as horrific as we thought it would be. The fear melts away and the love remains.

Your analogy of the drowning man only works if God is as limited as you are. I simply don't think God is limited. It isn't that I think we have no free will. It is that I think God, being eternal, outwaits us.

No Path, the bible supports the view that all have the potential to be saved, Not everyone will accept salvation...

 

[Quahom1]

a. maybe some are saved for later.

and b maybe some that you see as drowned are already saved and are saving others... Now that is what I'm talkin about.

Namaste

The Christ in me sees, salutes and honors the Christ in you...

Call it what you want, it doesn't matter to me.

Grace and Works...

yes you gotta do the work here on 3d, that is what we are here for to interact and do so with compassion and unconditional love...this plane of existence is the proving ground.

now if you do so and get in the right vibration...

Grace Happens

You've allowed it, opened the door, saved yourself, utilizing the understanding of the Christ within...

I and the Father are one.

UNeyeR1

I can't hurt you without hurting myself.

You are punished not for your sins but by them...

these works I've done you can do and more....

gotta love it...

Namaskar D, Q, and poo!

Christopher Robins and Poo...I forgot. lol

 

[Faithfulservant]

Evangelicals belief is once you are saved you are always saved. And that good works will inevitably follow. And even when you make mistakes its ok because god is molding you into a better person. But if one somehow falls away from the faith or their lifestyle doesn't change; then they were never truly saved in the first place.

that may be true for some but not for all

 

[dbanks82]

that may be true for some but not for all

Yes I understand that. I am sorry if it was inaccurate of your beliefs. There are many differing views in Christianity so it would be impossible to discuss them all in one forum. So I chose the one I was most familiar with.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Path —

I would say...
Yes, Christ died for the sins of humankind. He was the demonstration of the grace of God, and the unification of humanity and the Divine.

Agreed, but I would suggest we must not forget 'grace' as a gratuitous gift, which God gives freely, but in his freedom man can deny.

Therefore, God is in all things, even if that being does not recognize God in him/her.

But equally, God is not the things that He is in. How God is in all things is itself a grace and thus a gift, 'superadded' to a given nature.

It is not the belief in Christ that saves us ... It is the experience of Christ in us ... and this is faith.

Faith after the fact is not faith: "Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed" (John 20:29).

It is not our institutions or ideas that give us this,

I disagree. Without the institution, there is no transmission of the message, nor its meaning. Without that, we have no compass, we cannot conform ourselves to that which we do not know.

+++

With regard to the discussion, two significant differences between Catholic and the Protestant view of salvation are that:
1 — in the Catholic view, man has a choice always to accept of deny God, and so co-operates in his own salvation. Protestant theology does not recognise this human co-operation.
2 — in the Catholic view, man is 'made perfect' and cleansed from sin, or rather, healed of his fallen condition. In Protestant theology, man remains in his sin, a corrupt creature, but this sin is 'overlooked' by God.

I'm not sure of the Mormon take on wither of these.

Thomas

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Question 5 To be saved, do Men have to obey the commandments of the God in whom they have faith?

Mormon "Yes"
Evangelical "No"

Evangelicals belief is once you are saved you are always saved. And that good works will inevitably follow. And even when you make mistakes its ok because god is molding you into a better person. But if one somehow falls away from the faith or their lifestyle doesn't change; then they were never truly saved in the first place.

I am evangelical and i dont find this to be true, but faulty information and misguided to think that christians who go out to spread the gospel would teach such a thing. If we love God, we will do those things that would not grieve the Spirit and continue walking in the faith and sincerely repenting and working on pleasing God with our lives.

 

[dbanks82]

I am evangelical and i dont find this to be true, but faulty information and misguided to think that christians who go out to spread the gospel would teach such a thing. If we love God, we will do those things that would not grieve the Spirit and continue walking in the faith and sincerely repenting and working on pleasing God with our lives.

Again I am sorry if it was inaccurate again it would be impossible to discuss all the different views in one forum. I merely choose the evangelical perspective that I was most familiar with. In your view what happens if someone who loves god and serves him for many years falls away from the faith or someone who accepts Jesus Christ in their lives but they fail to even attempt to follow the teachings of Christ.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

In your view what happens if someone who loves god and serves him for many years falls away from the faith or someone who accepts Jesus Christ in their lives but they fail to even attempt to follow the teachings of Christ.

No servant can serve two masters, because either he will hate one and love the other, or be loyal to one and despise the other. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. But he who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

And, for everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it shall be opened. Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

Do not abuse the gift of God's grace that is found in his Son, and do not grieve the Spirit, but love God with all our heart, mind, and soul.

 

[dbanks82]

No servant can serve two masters, because either he will hate one and love the other, or be loyal to one and despise the other. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. But he who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

And, for everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it shall be opened. Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

Do not abuse the gift of God's grace that is found in his Son, and do not grieve the Spirit, but love God with all our heart, mind, and soul.

Ok I think we have a very similar view. I was describing the Lordship Salvation view on salvation. If you would like you can look it up on wikipedia and it will describe it to you, and you can see that I did give an accurate description of that particular viewpoint. And I am fully aware that not all evangelicals believe that, but I also know that many do. You are actually the first evangelical that I have personally spoken to that doesn't believe it. I again apologize but like I said earlier it would be impossible to address all the differing views on salvation that exist in Christianity.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

I was describing the Lordship Salvation view on salvation. If you would like you can look it up on wikipedia and it will describe it to you, and you can see that I did give an accurate description of that particular viewpoint.

You are the salt of the world. But if the salt should lose its taste, how can it be made salty again? It's good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled on by people.

Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.

If one is a well, it provides water; if one is a fruit tree, it bears fruit; and if one is a child of God, one loves God as well as loves others. However, if any of these things like the salt loses its value, it is no longer what it says it is, and it has a judgement attached to it in this life or before God. Either way it's not something I would wish to find out, or anybody.

 

[soleil10]

Once we are saved, why are our children still born with the original sin.
Is the salvation with receive through Christ just spiritual and not physical ?