Christianity without resurrection?

...Without the Resurrection, the Word — the Message — is dead.....

I walk with the Holy Spirit, and as I peruse my books, and contemplate the Mysteries, every now and then He taps the desk as it were and, or pops an idea into my head, and, God bless my soul, something I'd never seen before!

Thomas
Namaste Thomas,

That first line I left in the quote is exactly what troubles me. I believe we are on a precipice, and very soon the day will come where we have increased understanding of what happenned during Jesus's days on earth and the creation of the bible. Much of this is being unearthed, exposed today and in the past century, increasingly more with each passing decade. As this occurs those who are strapped litterally to the unerring traditions, these sacred events that may or may not have occurred, they completely lose faith, and their belief, and start thinking their time with Christ and the bible a waste and reject everything. We've all seen it happen.

That saddens me greatly. I'd rather folks realize what is happening and be prepared for the transition. Who would want others to lose their faith?

Many look at results of the Jesus Seminar and say it blasphemy and they don't know what they are talking about. And those detractors often pick out the radicals in the group and say see, see...look at who is making these statements. But I'd love it if folks actually looked at the credentials of the majority of the Seminar. Don't look at those radicals, look at those devout Christians, who've studied and taught at the finest universities and seminaries...and contemplate why they agree. from wiki
According to the Jesus Seminar:
The key to me is delving into what bothers me, what sets my neck hairs on end. Not ignore it, not put my fingers in my ears and say lalalalalalala... or the ever popular, "Satan get the behind me" Looking into these statements and the items which shake your very core are what opens spirit up to me even more. Seeing through all the hype that folks have thought we needed for centuries in order to have belief. Unveiling what the heirarchy says is required because we aren't ready for the truth. Setting spirit free and having that connection without the mythology, but with all the mystery is amazing.
Thomas said:
I walk with the Holy Spirit, and as I peruse my books, and contemplate the Mysteries, every now and then He taps the desk as it were and, or pops an idea into my head, and, God bless my soul, something I'd never seen before!
Yes, Thomas, I fully agree...what a blessing it is.
 
Hi Wil —

Much of this is being unearthed, exposed today and in the past century, increasingly more with each passing decade. As this occurs those who are strapped litterally to the unerring traditions, these sacred events that may or may not have occurred, they completely lose faith, and their belief, and start thinking their time with Christ and the bible a waste and reject everything. We've all seen it happen.
I think this is your hope, rather than a reality. From where I'm looking, there is an increasing weight of material that seems to indicate that Scripture is far more reliable as an historical record than we tend to allow — not a forensic history as is the rule today, but an accurate and reliable testimony of events passed.

There are even theories that the source of the material of John's Gospel is in fact older than the Synoptics, because the miracle accounts are more 'primitive' and contain none of the growth and development evident in them.

As I think I mentioned elsewhere, historians are uncovering a huge wealth of incidental historical data from the Acts of the Apostles that 'infill' a picture of a Roman Empire teetering on collapse in the region, that led to the revolt and the raising of Jerusalem.

There's more truth there than you can imagine, let alone allow.

As Disraeli said, "Forget history, read biography" — there is much wisdom in his words.

The trouble with 'history' is, removed from its roots ands thus removed from contact with reality, man can spin anything he likes from the data, and does.

I think everything you claim will be shown to be the fruits of 'philosophical relativism' in a couple of generations; will be regarded as the false fruits of a flawed way of thinking ... a way of thinking that is already coming under the severest criticism in political circles.

Many look at results of the Jesus Seminar and say it blasphemy and they don't know what they are talking about.
I don't go that far. I side with the weight of serious scholarship, by which I mean the big names in Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran and other theological circles, who dismiss the Jesus Seminar as the 'third stage' in that fruitless and pointless 'Quest for the Historical Jesus'.

The Jesus Seminar 'voting system' is an object of ridicule in scholarly circles, and rightly so ...

Critics have voiced concerns that the JS methodology set out to prove its own presuppositions, and picked up and lost supporters on the way. Its conclusions were determined at the outset, invalidating all claims to responsible or critical scholarship. In the words of one scholar, "It is a self-indulgent charade." (Timothy Luke Johnson)

JS would have me believe that someone, or some group, within a generation of the events recorded in Scripture, effectively rewrote the history of Jesus that was circulating at that time, created a fiction about four times as large, all the while those who had witnessed Christ and his teachings — the early churches would have been founded by now, and the word spreading fast — suddenly underwent either collective amnesia in accepting this new fabrication as authentic, or dumped what they had seen and believed for this new story which in a very shor time was getting them killed in large numbers.

Many JS critics have observed that their assumptions depend on the fact that Jesus' disciples and apostles were either incapable of remembering or uninterested in recalling what Jesus said and did, and made it all up as they went along.

I have Catholic criticism which places the JS in context of the Quest, from the days of Reimarus and Strauss, and in fact accuses the JS of ignorance of its own heritage, let alone Christ's!

And all in all, the scholarship and methodology of the critics of the JS, some of whom were counted among its number, outweigh its claims. Sorry.

The key to me is delving into what bothers me, what sets my neck hairs on end...
And making it manageable, by explaining it away.

The difference between me and the Jesus Seminar, it seems to me, is that I believe there is always more to what we can discern from Scripture, whilst the JS believes there is actually less ... everything the JS preaches involves people abandoning and discarding what they have traditionally held, for what ... ?

... nothing.

They replace faith with incredulity, hope with skepticism ... they remove the Mystery from a Mystery Religion, purely on the basis that they can't bring themselves to believe in it, and they would reduce beatitude to banality.

Were the JS to be taken to the empty tomb today, they would come up with any and every possible permutation of what might, could and probably happened, except the Resurrection — that's ruled out, right from the outset.

People are looking for something they can believe in, Wil, not something they can't.

Thomas
 
I understand what you are saying, Thomas, that everyone experiences religion and God differently. And I didn't mean to imply that everyone should experience as I do. What I am saying is that many, many Christians I have known abdicate personal responsibility for their faith (an engagement with God, or a steadfast attempt toward such) and for their world (an engagement with social and environmental justice) because their churches tell them that they must only believe in whatever the pastor says, go through some motions each week, and all is well.

That isn't what was taught in the Gospels, plain and simple.

Wil and I are on different pages, because while I agree that literal evidence contrary to a literal resurrection and so forth would not affect my faith and yet not require leaps of logic (as in the 10,000 year old world, no evolution, etc.), I do believe in the miracles and more broadly, in what could be considered a magical world. I just don't think that the point is in the miracles, nor is the proof. The evidence of manifestation of God in humanity (through Jesus Christ) is in His perfect spirit, not in the miracles. Lots of people can do miraculous things and these powers exist regardless of your faith. Christ Himself says that demons believe in Him and that people will do things in His name despite Him not knowing them. In my humble opinion, the Gospels point toward growth in the Spirit of God as evidenced by one's being-ness- humility, forgiveness, love, peace, and so forth. Miracles may happen in accordance with this, but magic is not, I think, a necessary component, nor an evidencial one, of God's manifestation in Christ.

Christ showed us the perfect human being, emptied of egoic self and filled as a divine vessel. It is this perfection toward which we are told to strive (Be therefore perfect even as your Father is perfect), and whose oneness we are shown as a bridge between the Divine and the human (the Father and I are one).

Yes, I think the miracles happened. But I've seen some pretty miraculous things in my own life, and not all of them were God-inspired. Human beings have more power than they think to make thought manifest. As for the resurrection, I find it deeply meaningful, but I don't think a literal resurrection of Jesus' body is the point. It is the resurrection of what lives on in us- our Spirit- the part of us that becomes one with the Divine- that is the crux of the matter for me. This is why, if they definitivey found Jesus' bones, I would be unperterbed and yet would not need to deny evidence. Either way, it would not matter to me... it is the promise of a spiritual resurrection in which I have faith.

As I've said before, if others believe differently, it's fine by me. Whatever works for people. I toss my spiritual experience out there and have fun discussing ideas, but I've never sought to convert anyone to anything. I can say, "Given my own experience, I don't understand this" without meaning it as judgment. I realize that my own personality and circumstances are different from others, but I don't know that they are so very different from what is possible for others. I don't think I am that special. It is not as if every time I pray to God, Christ is sitting next to me having a chat. There are long periods in which I am still expected to strive on my journey, to serve, to love others, to lift life up to the Divine in hope of healing, during His Silence. That doesn't mean that I subscribe to any particular institution's list of beliefs. It means I accept the silence, the unanswered prayers, the unknown, until God brings me peace in the Mystery of it or some light of understanding. It's hard to explain what I mean, but I hope it is sort of coming across. Just because one gets visions or messages and so forth doesn't make any of it more transparent or easier.

In fact, it means that my life is one lived between Christianity, who in general won't have me unless I keep it all to myself and appear to blend in, and other religions (such as Buddhism and neo-Paganism), which would have me but I can't let go of Christ, who has long been my guide, my Savior and King, and is too real to ignore. I guess what I'm saying is... I tire of struggling to be heard as a follower of Christ, and yet I am unable to ever let Him go. To accept much of what the Christian churches would have me accept is to go against my own experience of God. To deny it is to separate myself from religious fellowship, to be forever betwixt and between religions, to be alone. I can't very well be someone I am not (tried that, didn't work at all and, for lack of a better way of putting it, God didn't seem to be happy much with it either). So, all I can do is offer what I have.
 
Kim, I'm in the same betwixt & between about Christ & Buddha. Both resonate a deep, but personal truth to me that would be a personal spiritual betrayal not to honor. earl
 
Namaste all,

Thomas, so you've got a lot to say about the JS and the conclusions they've come to in their books, and you have looked at the credentials of the Catholics, Protestants, Lutheran etc scholars that make up the seminar I take it. I say this becuase it would not be true to form for you to discount something without having first hand knowledge of it.

I see most of these folks in the seminar as highly credentialed scholars and educators. As I said, I posted the list of fellows, and I know you can spot the liberals and the folks you think unworthy. What I'd love for you to do is look at those Phd Christian Theologians and contemplate why they would put their name on such a project if it were as bad as it is made out to be.

As to the miracles and the miraculous, I surely can't say with any certainty what did or did not happen. I can also state as I have before my belief there are no miracles and everything is a miracle. I've seen what folks call miracles. I play in the natural medicine world, worked with practioners of KiGong, Jorei, Reiki, and other natural healing methods that I cannot pronounce or spell... I've watched arthritic hands straighten, children with terrible constipation find relief, folks with a variety of maladies find resources to change their condition. I feel none of it is miraculous, it is all natural, all G!ds energy that flows through our universe and can do what is claimed a miracle if we allow it.
 
Dondi, I'm sorry for not listening to you and for dismissing everything you said. Small wonder that it takes me so long to learn, and I hope you don't judge me to much for it. I'm obviously not getting the whole picture and would have benefited from listening more to what you were saying as well as the other forum participants. Hopefully they can forget about such behavior, too.
 
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