The(my) ultimate questions:

[TheKhan]

I figure this forum would be the best place to ask for an answer to an old question of mine.

1. My ultimate question is, when you have a world/nations/communities filled with people who think/wish their kid is better than the other kid, and are going to extreme lengths to even fight about it, sometimes unconsciously, what do you tell them or do about it? After all its only very natural.


I would ideally like to compile a practical thought on this and reach a conclusion. Frankly this has been a very tough nut to crack for me. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Best regards,

TK

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Practice random acts of compassion.

 

[Nick_A]

I figure this forum would be the best place to ask for an answer to an old question of mine.

1. My ultimate question is, when you have a world/nations/communities filled with people who think/wish their kid is better than the other kid, and are going to extreme lengths to even fight about it, sometimes unconsciously, what do you tell them or do about it? After all its only very natural.


I would ideally like to compile a practical thought on this and reach a conclusion. Frankly this has been a very tough nut to crack for me. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Best regards,

TK

Tell them to become themselves and then the other kids won't matter.

 

[Snoopy]

As you say, people think: we create all with our mind. It is with our thoughts that we create the dualistic world of concepts such as “self / other”. Therein lies the starting point to your answer.

s.

 

[Netti-Netti]

... when you have a world/nations/communities filled with people who think/wish their kid is better than the other kid, and are going to extreme lengths to even fight about it, sometimes unconsciously, what do you tell them or do about it?

I would highlight the distinction between the everyday empirical self and the Essential Self.

I think what you model in your own conduct might be more important than any verbal explanation. But if you wanted to, you could probably find extreme examples illustrating how misplaced priorities lead to foolish/destructive social comparisons. Like cheating behaviour and the like.

 

[TheKhan]

Thanks y`all,

At the end of the day, I only see good people fighting each other because they have two different ways of saying similar things.

And when you have two good people fighting each other for the right reasons, thats when it gets really complicated for me. Who`s side should I be on, do I get involved? They`re annoying, what should I do? etc..

I`m not about to go Atheist just because seems God is playing jokes on us, and I`m sure when I hear or come up with the answer to my question I will know. Hopefully this thread will last, unlike the Greco-Buddhism thread at the Christian forum which got deleted, which showed the environment partially where Christianity was founded. But I was just reminded how stubborn people could be.

There`s an old saying in Japan that ignorant people sometimes need to die, to be relieved of their stupidity. How many people like that do you know?

Anyways let me get a cup of coffee.

 

[seattlegal]

Thanks y`all,

At the end of the day, I only see good people fighting each other because they have two different ways of saying similar things.

And when you have two good people fighting each other for the right reasons, thats when it gets really complicated for me. Who`s side should I be on, do I get involved? They`re annoying, what should I do? etc..

Do something to remind them that we are all human.

I`m not about to go Atheist just because seems God is playing jokes on us, and I`m sure when I hear or come up with the answer to my question I will know. Hopefully this thread will last, unlike the Greco-Buddhism thread at the Christian forum which got deleted, which showed the environment partially where Christianity was founded. But I was just reminded how stubborn people could be.

That thread is still here at IO.
Interesting subject. Have you read anything about St. Issa?

There`s an old saying in Japan that ignorant people sometimes need to die, to be relieved of their stupidity. How many people like that do you know?

We all will eventually die. I guess we're all stupid, then.

Anyways let me get a cup of coffee.

 

[wil]

1. My ultimate question is, when you have a world/nations/communities filled with people who think/wish their kid is better than the other kid, and are going to extreme lengths to even fight about it, sometimes unconsciously, what do you tell them or do about it? After all its only very natural.

Namaste TK,

I only see at sports arenas parents fighting over whose kid is better. Are you using this as a metaphor as I am not keeping up.

I see nations fighting over land, resources, slaves, money, protecting their children maybe, fighting over who will control the future, but not fighting over who is are better.

 

[Dream]

At the end of the day, I only see good people fighting each other because they have two different ways of saying similar things.

And when you have two good people fighting each other for the right reasons, thats when it gets really complicated for me. Who`s side should I be on, do I get involved? They`re annoying, what should I do? etc..

Pretend for a minute you're in charge of the UN. What you have to do is first realize that you are too small to actually change anything. Stop thinking too highly of yourself and ride the waves instead of directing them. Go with minimum splash and make a small difference, but let people think you're in control of whatever's happening. That is the only leverage that your position really provides you. As a leader you must appear to be in control while maintaining personal honesty with yourself that you really aren't.

 

[TheKhan]

Have you read anything about St. Issa?

I might need to check out St. Issa. FYI, I just found out from a post from juantoo3 and derived a conclusion that through Mithraism, Buddhism was present in the Roman empire around the time Christianity was started. Its a cult based on the next Buddha, like the next Messiah. (ref link to that post) -> http://www.interfaith.org/forum/judas-hero-or-traitor-10300-3.html

Are you using this as a metaphor as I am not keeping up. I see nations fighting over land, resources, slaves, money, protecting their children maybe, fighting over who will control the future, but not fighting over who is are better.

I should have included the entire post, I erased half of it as it was anti-social towards all the Abrahamic religions and Communists which I view as coming from the same neighborhood with similar traits which I accuse as the biggest disruption to world peace for at least a century (I woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning). I also should have explained more on my thinking as it is a personal system of belief when I think about it.

Well I meant I`ve reached a conclusion that taking out evil is easy, as evil destroys itself, we may be ignorant but we are inherently good in order to survive, and evil is usually weak when exposed. Plus if they ever cross a certain line which is the same line as anyone, they get erased as a natural law (if I sound like I`m babbling, so be it, I won`t take it personally).

But when you see two strong forces going at each other, assuming evil is weak, we have a situation where two goods are fighting. Based on my assumption that I believe God did not create anything that is ultimately strong and evil. Its just not possible in my view.

So then I went about identifying who is strong and came to the conclusion that there are two kinds of groups. And one group pursued a concept to be ultimately strong(e.g. spartan-like people) and through that found ultimate love. The other seemed they pursued love(hippies??) and found strength through that practice.

Then I was faced with a dilema. OK Good always victors over Evil, easy enough. But what should one do when for example you have two families competing for resources, for their families and sometimes God (if you want to include God), which happens all the time. Who should win? Someone has to lose, and more importantly we need peace. Excuse me if I sound like a spoiled brat but I want peace, I rather like it when nukes aren`t pointed at me.

Pretend for a minute you're in charge of the UN. What you have to do is first realize that you are too small to actually change anything. .

In the erased part of my post, I included a portion where I admitted I was small because I was thinking about sending big ultimatums, but hey I was in a really bad mood at the time. In your post I sense much truth to what you say. In a way I might settle with just settling down. That`s reality. But one of my purposes in life is to fight and protect in honor, sounds corny but thats how it is partially for me, so let me be.

And this question was the only question I couldn`t crack(in my personal view), which I wanted to figure.

It would greatly help me in enhancing my thinking.
Thanks again.

 

[TheKhan]

Namaste TK,

I only see at sports arenas parents fighting over whose kid is better. Are you using this as a metaphor as I am not keeping up.

I see nations fighting over land, resources, slaves, money, protecting their children maybe, fighting over who will control the future, but not fighting over who is are better.

Wil, perhaps I didn`t quite answer your question in full. It is also my assumption that we go to war mostly because of the well being for the next generation, and because of old people`s or sometimes dead people`s ego`s.

And sometimes find ourselves fighting each other where the people who are dying are both fighting believing in world peace or something like that.

Getting rid of being misguided by old egos to leave a legacy, would be part of the answer I guess. Everyone wants to be stud.

But families vs. families that fight for the next generation, and where one side will never accept a draw, is what I identify as a major problem.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Getting rid of being misguided by old egos to leave a legacy, would be part of the answer I guess. Everyone wants to be stud.

Hi TheKhan,

There is competition in countries with a more collectivist national culture, but doesn't it have a different meaning from societies where individualism predominates?

My impression is that in the US competition actually means you are alligning yourself with established tradition. It's a form of conformity and social coordination and a way to get acceptance and other social rewards. Isn't that different from Japanese culture?

It seems that movement away from traditional Japanese culture is taking its toll, with many health consequences. Maybe these adverse effects will diminish once the transformation is further along. I would think there will be extra stresses as long as there are remaining elements of traditional collectivist culture that are hard to reconcile to the new individualism.

I wonder how China is doing epidemiologically. They are still very much in transition.

 

[TheKhan]

Hi Netti-Netti,

where individualism predominates?

Deep underneath that collective culture, I am starting to find individuals and they have strong opinions, whether they say it or not. That may be the norm everywhere when you peel that cover.

I think that is why fear was instrumental and possibly the only tool back in the days that could unite a country like Japan. And I mean fear used as a tool in multi-millennium terms. Thus you get a spartan-like(die-hard) military country very primed to be an imperial communist state.

Die-hard military countries may spend a lot of time invading if they can, but as far as I think are not prone to think that much about taking advantage of slave people. That concept doesn`t exist much in a warrior state. They take no hostages, thus as a result a lot of people may die. This is just a generalization that I could be wrong. And pursuit of capitalism is the opposite, its about taking advantage of people and making the most profit while bullying them if necessary, in its worst form use of slave(ex-hostage) labor is the norm. We know both kinds of groups who have been the toughest in their time in history.

As an example I think the Japanese do a good job in adhering to democratic standards, while naturally being collective in nature, and that is where when a lot of people, and I mean a lot of people with different opinions wrong and right get equal say in everything. Thus the Japanese face leadership/unity problems in terms of social structure now, they`re wandering everywhere and that means organizations that can`t be managed well, with home grown splinter cells present everywhere being the norm. For example in a free society, even the communist party has say in politics, cults can roam free as well. Thats the downside of being very free and opening the pandora box. Iraq might be something to look at too.

On the otherhand, in the US (where I grew up as well) you might disagree with me, but I know that organizations are managed with a heavier hand, despite it seems individualism is the driving factor and it ultimately is, but also hard decisions can be made, and organizations can be better managed. The chaos is restricted, in my opinion due to the traditions of Christianity and one God. There is more collective emphasis on the well being of the next generation and leaderships being able to lead, thus more old egos retire early, and thus strong young individuals are bread.

But rather than Japan, which is doomed without more common sense and leadership skills, and philosophy on how to be strong, I was talking more about the middle-east, Israel, Palestine, Russia, petrol, terrorism. I think I might be able to speak for Japan on this, but I don`t think Japan ever wanted to get involved with the rest of the world roughly a hundred years ago if they didn`t have to, when you see that all the reasons for fighting are from Abrahamic religious states and concepts (colonialism, communism). It is all bull crap, or bullying and just some reason to fight, thats how I feel sometimes.

But setting the blame aside and looking forward, I could really live in a world where I don`t have to worry about China invading Taiwan, Russia invading other territories, Israel getting suicide bombers, Palistinians getting killed, nuke threats, etc..

And at the root of the problem I believe is this group thinking, a mob mentality that chains us, starting from family structures, moms and paps, and support(friends,relatives, governments, communities) for it, from very natural urges that are not necessarily rooted in standard evil noted in religious texts. In fact it might not even be a sin to be that way. And when those groups face off with each other.

And its also safe to say that we are not always prone to make wise decisions when we act in groups (pitfalls of group thinking).

I wonder how China is doing epidemiologically. They are still very much in transition.

China must drop all attempts to be a military super power, and become a high-tech/eco economy super power if they want to avoid war (my opinion). My information states that they have a structure in place to take over the world and that structure must be disabled immediately. Minimum, they have to go super eco to avoid war, which they seem are pursuing. In about a decade the US could be no threat to them militarily. But they aren`t gonna discover divinity any time soon. Hopefully they will just pursue their gift in being a merchant.

Sorry that I had to write a book on this topic.

TK

 

[AndreG]

Thanks y`all,

At the end of the day, I only see good people fighting each other because they have two different ways of saying similar things.

And when you have two good people fighting each other for the right reasons, thats when it gets really complicated for me. Who`s side should I be on, do I get involved? They`re annoying, what should I do? etc..

Why do you feel you have to choose a side? You have all the answers and wisdom within you.

I don't see the difference between the relationship of party x and party y are your relationship with BOTH parties. The notion of right and wrong is implied in both.

So by choosing a side, by judging one as annoying, you perpetuate the cycle.

Does this make sense?

 

[DrumR]

I figure this forum would be the best place to ask for an answer to an old question of mine.

1. My ultimate question is, when you have a world/nations/communities filled with people who think/wish their kid is better than the other kid, and are going to extreme lengths to even fight about it, sometimes unconsciously, what do you tell them or do about it? After all its only very natural.


I would ideally like to compile a practical thought on this and reach a conclusion. Frankly this has been a very tough nut to crack for me. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Best regards,

TK

Greetings, TheKhan.
This appears to be more of a societal issue than it is one pertaining to a specific spiritual path. To my mind, what has been described is a notable shift in mindset from the preservation of a society as a whole towards the supremacy of individual. This shift in attitudes may be considered as one of the symptoms of a breakdown of an existing society. Whether this societal flux will result in paving the way for changes which may alter the society significantly from within or that it may provide sufficient uncertainty within that society for a successful takeover from without, for good or ill, has yet to be determined.

One may be led to believe that this lack of societal cohesiveness has, at its base, a sufficient undercurrent of a lack of the common understanding of that society as a whole, which may then be construed as a breakdown of the public education, legal and/or information systems.

 

[DrumR]

My previous post points to the possible existence a difficulty within a society.
Yet the OP* requested not the mere classification but rather a HowTo address the nature of such societal 'aberrations" of individual over society and so I offer:

Should the OP be the case in actuality then one would not be ill advised to seek for further information, perhaps even applicable solutions, of a societal problem from the perspective of social compacts where one may find that there exists quite a few volumes to be found in the literature directed toward these concerns.

* = Original Post

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"...a notable shift in mindset from the preservation of a society as a whole towards the supremacy of individual. This shift in attitudes may be considered as one of the symptoms of a breakdown of an existing society."

--> I had not thought of it this way before. Thanks for pointing it out. The trick, then, is to put together a society of individuals who value both society and individualism. But how?

 

[DrumR]

"...a notable shift in mindset from the preservation of a society as a whole towards the supremacy of individual. This shift in attitudes may be considered as one of the symptoms of a breakdown of an existing society."

--> I had not thought of it this way before. Thanks for pointing it out. The trick, then, is to put together a society of individuals who value both society and individualism. But how?

Thank you for the favor of a reply, Nick the Pilot.

Each nation state has, what they may believe, the answer to your query.
So it is from the American perspective that I would speak, for from each their own.

Yet this discussion may be better served were it debated in the Politics and Society arena.

 

[DrumR]

"...a notable shift in mindset from the preservation of a society as a whole towards the supremacy of individual. This shift in attitudes may be considered as one of the symptoms of a breakdown of an existing society."

--> I had not thought of it this way before. Thanks for pointing it out. The trick, then, is to put together a society of individuals who value both society and individualism. But how?

Were one to ask of Taoism for a "HowTo" then the later chapters of the Tao teh Ching might provide one some insight in the matter. Reviewing some of the posts concerning "leadership," instigated by Avi, may also point towards one direction or another.

Yet it is in the many writings concerning the Social Compact that one may have a greater likelihood of finding more than mere clues pertaining to the inter relationships involved .

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I'm a little confused by the question. People struggle to insure the best future for their children. There's a bit of class struggle involved in this. I don't think that the powers that be in the world are fighting over the supremacy of one kid versus another. On the world stage there is a struggle to control resources, the security of transportation routes for those resources, and the markets in which the resources will be traded and sold. It's a sort of hangover from the era of imperialism. There is constant pressure from the capitalistic model which insists that profits increase forever. That's obviously hard to sustain. What happens is that upward mobility hinges on the ability of the lower classes to step on, and push off of those within and below their economic strata. This creates a dog-eat-dog mentality which is further fueled by political rhetoric designed to placate the masses by emphasizing ethnocentricity and xenophobia in lieu of real progress.

Chris