soma
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Thomas you never talk about the Mystery except through intellectual exercise. You are into the words and symbols, but not the experience they are pointing to.
Christian Mysticism
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Thomas you never talk about the Mystery except through intellectual exercise. You are into the words and symbols, but not the experience they are pointing to.
Netti-Netti
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Soma wrote:
~John 14:16-17 and 20
~Corinthians 12:13
To be religiously meaningful, the Church's baptism ritual would need to attest to a spiritual baptism that has already happened to the individual. That's why infant baptism makes no sense to me. At any rate, the Church's baptism ritual does not make a spiritual baptism happen.
The spiritual baptism would involve a realization of Divine Unity by which the Living Truth can be incorporated into the person's living. The church ceremony (water baptism) actually has little value as a form of knowledge or as a foundation for faith. It's more an initiation rite with a social/culture meaning rather than a spiritual meaning. (It defines the individual's standing in relation to the community of faith and helps reinforce church membership.)
I personally feel it is important to keep the above distinctions in mind though they be obscured at times in Church doctrine (e.g., the Catholic Catechism).
The notion of having been "baptised into one body" actually makes more sense if one does not equate the body with church. "The body" can be seen as a spiritualized society rather than as a visible ecclesiastic organization. One might call it a divine society - i.e., a society that has been transformed in what the Vatican calls "the mystical body of Christ."
Btw, I have no problem with this Vatican position: "The Church is the 'sign and instrument' of the full realization of the unity yet to come." I would only add that there are other signs and instruments other than the Church, many of them naturally-occurring.
To which Thomas replied:
"Internal" and "external" will coincide at some point:
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you....I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
Well, of course that depends on the point of view being argued. I'm fine with this:
(W)e were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.
To be religiously meaningful, the Church's baptism ritual would need to attest to a spiritual baptism that has already happened to the individual. That's why infant baptism makes no sense to me. At any rate, the Church's baptism ritual does not make a spiritual baptism happen.
The spiritual baptism would involve a realization of Divine Unity by which the Living Truth can be incorporated into the person's living. The church ceremony (water baptism) actually has little value as a form of knowledge or as a foundation for faith. It's more an initiation rite with a social/culture meaning rather than a spiritual meaning. (It defines the individual's standing in relation to the community of faith and helps reinforce church membership.)
I personally feel it is important to keep the above distinctions in mind though they be obscured at times in Church doctrine (e.g., the Catholic Catechism).
The notion of having been "baptised into one body" actually makes more sense if one does not equate the body with church. "The body" can be seen as a spiritualized society rather than as a visible ecclesiastic organization. One might call it a divine society - i.e., a society that has been transformed in what the Vatican calls "the mystical body of Christ."
Btw, I have no problem with this Vatican position: "The Church is the 'sign and instrument' of the full realization of the unity yet to come." I would only add that there are other signs and instruments other than the Church, many of them naturally-occurring.
soma
Well-Known Member
External authority to me means for example a pastor who tells his congregation that God wants them to go to war. The Spirit with in or external as you said very well is the authority one must listen to.
Maybe you mean you can't recognise a Christian — but please don't judge everyone else in your own shortcomings.
Thomas
I'm sorry but I think that's a self-serving definition. What you mean is, you decide the rules of what you decide is acceptable behaviour or not.
Thomas
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Nick_A
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At least I'm willing to admit my shortcomings.
You of course will be one of the elect to see though false prophets. You are a very lucky man indeed.
soma
Well-Known Member
Thomas. To not listen to the spirit sounds like a candidate to be a suicide bomber who listens and follows orders from an external authority.
Not at all. The Rite of Baptism is the conferring of life in the Holy Trinity, not the recognition of it — that's what Christ said, and what the Apostles understood and what they preached.
In your opinion. If you don't agree with baptism, or the need for it, then take that up with Scripture ... even Cornelius (Acts 10), upon whom the Holy Spirit descended 'outside' of the Church, was baptised, and the Holy Spirit made sure Cornelius was in the right place before His miraculous appearance.
So I weigh your words against the word of Scripture, and the testimony of the saints and mystics and the Church, who insist otherwise. You'll understand if I should choose to go with them,
You don't properly understand Baptism. It's a beginning, not an end. It's an entry into life in the Holy Spirit, not the culmination of it.
And in Catholic doctrine, it requires the active co-operation and willing participation of the baptised, in an ongoing manner — it's not a guarantee, nor a forgone conclusion, nor an insurance policy.
Well of course I'd expect that. I see it otherwise:
The Rite of Baptism is a symbolic act in the true nature of the term symbol, by which I mean the essence of the thing symbolised is actually and effectively present in the symbol (as opposed to a 'sign' which points to a thing but which does not encompass its immanent presence).
It is a Sacramental symbol by virtue of the fact that it was established, as a rite, by God, and given to man and not, as you suppose, as an empty gesture, but as a free and unmerited gift, which Scripture refers to as charis and we as grace, by which man might engage in and with the most profound of Mysteries, a participation in the Divine Life Itself.
To say "baptism actually has little value as a form of knowledge or as a foundation for faith" only makes me shake my head ... I do like the way you set yourself as the benchmark of everything.
It certainly has a social and cultural dimension — how could it not — but that all you can see is the exoteric dimension does not mean the esoteric is not there, just that you can't see it.
No, that's a cop-out piece of nonsense and an act of self-justification. That's just you working a loophole to get out of loving your neighbour. Read 1 John, he knocked that notion on the head in short order.
For if there is no body, no materiality, then the world is without reason, or purpose, or end.
That's dualism talking, something fundamentally opposed to the entire metaphysical corpus of the Abrahamic Tradition. It's very favourable, of course, because it lets you off the hook and you can get away with all sorts of stuff.
I don't think the Vatican would disagree with you, but the simple fact is that the Church is the pre-eminent sign and instrument without equal, and the sole and only source of the Sacramental Graces — no other instrument possesses or even admits the Eucharist with such metaphysical rigour and preserves it with such rigour.
The 'unity yet to come' will be when those other signs and instruments array themselves about the Church accordingly.
Thomas
Netti-Netti
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Please cite a Biblical or doctrinal justification for the normative practice of infant baptism.
Btw, I have never seen a Catholic church equipped to baptise adults.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
My understanding from the bible is that water baptism is a petition to God for a clean conscience in our repentance of our sins and asking of forgiveness. (1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38)
Baptism of the Spirit can occur separately from this. (Acts 8:14-16)
Baptism of the Spirit can occur separately from this. (Acts 8:14-16)
Matt 20:20-28
20 Then the mother of Zebedee's sons approached Him with her sons. She knelt down to ask Him for something. 21 "What do you want?" He asked her. "Promise," she said to Him, "that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right and the other on Your left, in Your kingdom."
22 But Jesus answered, "You don't know what you're asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?"
"We are able," they said to Him.
23 He told them, "You will indeed drink My cup. But to sit at My right and left is not Mine to give; instead, it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by My Father." 24 When the 10 [disciples] heard this, they became indignant with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them over and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles dominate them, and the men of high position exercise power over them. 26 It must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life—a ransom for many."
Could "naturally occurring" be referring to "those for whom it has been prepared by My Father?"20 Then the mother of Zebedee's sons approached Him with her sons. She knelt down to ask Him for something. 21 "What do you want?" He asked her. "Promise," she said to Him, "that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right and the other on Your left, in Your kingdom."
22 But Jesus answered, "You don't know what you're asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?"
"We are able," they said to Him.
23 He told them, "You will indeed drink My cup. But to sit at My right and left is not Mine to give; instead, it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by My Father." 24 When the 10 [disciples] heard this, they became indignant with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them over and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles dominate them, and the men of high position exercise power over them. 26 It must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life—a ransom for many."
TheKhan
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If I understand what is at the heart of these discussions, I believe there is much that isn`t explained in the bible in detail, that I think Jesus had knowledge of. Let me throw in some concepts that maybe some of you might find interesting or know, like how prayer works. And let me know if I`m completely off the mark in writing this too.
I`m no expert in these areas, so I`ll just reference a link. There might not be that much information in English to begin with. But I personally find these concepts fascinating in the sense that some things in the bible may make some sense, and not dismissed as something from la la land. I`m just trying to find the details, which could have got lost through time and sharing it.
Kotodama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (a possible explanation of what prayer is)
I`ll have to translate the 6 basic super powers(Jintsuriki in Japanese) mentioned in buddhism.
1. to be anywhere where one wishes (Jesus resurrected).
2. to see anything at any distance or size.
3. to distinguish any sound or voice (Solomon?)
4. to know how others feel.
5. to know anyones past lives.
6. to know when one is not lost (enlightened? not sure).
Does Christian mysticism include these kinds of topics?
TK
Netti-Netti
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How is this accomplished for an infant who has no knowledge of sin and no appreciation for the need to be forgiven?
I was not thinking of the passage you cited. I was thinking more in terms of Dharma as anything that supports you in your path. It could be a church, it could be a passage from the Bible or a a Buddhist Sutra, and it it could be any natural symbols that point to the Sacred.
TheKhan
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This is Shinto basics, but clean water like waterfalls are considered to be a medium that cleans our consiousness?/soul? whatever one is cleansing. So if one would feel the evil in themselves they might be pouring cold water over their heads, in extreme circumstances. You find many Shintoists meditating under waterfalls, trying to gain knowledge. I believe baptism is a tradition that originates from these kinds of traditions.
And infants according to these kinds of theories are still subject to be corrupted to some extent by just existing in our world. I don`t know much about how things work though.
Baptism is a one time thing. But it might be a good idea if Christians thought about what water is more if you`re gonna think about baptism.
TK
But you don't know who is or is not a Christian, until they touch your life in some way...then you definitely know. And I dare say you don't call them "Christian", but I bet you call them "friend" or something positive along those lines. There is just something about them, that sets them apart (in one's mind).
soma
Well-Known Member
Quahom1, I agree a Christian will make a Muslim a better Muslim, a Hindu a better Hindu, and a Buddhist a better Buddhist. Going to Church and cheating, getting by, and other shading dealings the other 6 days does not make a Christian.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I'm not one for infant baptism, so I can't answer that question.
(Romans 1:20) There is always the possibility of confusion, however.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
See 1 Corinthians 12-13 (which I think should be one chapter, rather than two chapters) regarding Christian "Spiritual gifts" (mystical abilities,) and how they fit into the greater practice of Christianity.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
1 Cor 13.
That is a hard one to fathom, because one may not realize they are doing it...not a conscious effort, so to speak...maybe that is why it is so...mystical?1 Cor 13.