If we had not fallen ?

[soleil10]

If humankind had not fallen, and we had been born through unfallen parents, there would be no need to argue about whether God exists. We would naturally know it from birth.
Babies begin sucking as soon as they are born when they sense their mother’s breast in front of them. Do they need to learn how to suck while in the womb ? They automatically know how to do it.
If we had not fallen, we would naturally recognize and cultivate our relationship with God. We would automaticaly advance towards Him. But the Fall has taken away our ability to sense God’s presence at any time.
This is why the world is in doubt as to whether God exists. This is a tragic situation.

 

[TheKhan]

I understand what you are saying, I have my doubts if we are born fallen though.

I think we`re the closest to Adam and Eve when we`re little kids. Then like most people, the fall starts. Some remember, and to my surprise some people have almost no memory of when they were young. We`d need to do something about that, IMO.

If it makes you feel any better, I don`t think we`re that lost.
Besides God is around each one of us. Have some faith.

 

[soleil10]

TheKhan, when you look at mankind's history, all the wars, all the suffering, all the bloodshed even today, it is difficult for many people to believe in a God that seems so powerless. I cant even watch the news on TV, it is just terrible.

The war starts inside of us. We say one thing and do something else. There is a fight between our mind and our body, then this multiply to the family level, then the clans, then the nation and the world.

God is heartbroken by this.

 

[winner08]

This is FYI. Adam and Eve. Oh how they fallen. Wrong. No where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were a failure. First if one notice's, God planted the tree of good and evil right smack in the middle of the Garden (in the mist) to be correct. God planted the tree not satan. It probable would have been one if not the first thing they notice. The tree was beautiful and appealing to the eyes. (Why not plant it in the corner some where)?? if He did not want them to be tempted? People give God no more reasoning powers or abilities than sinful man. God knew excalty everything that Adam and Eve would do. He is God. He knows all. these are simple scriptures that most sunday school children already know. God has a plan and God is working out that plan to perfection on a perfect schedule. and He will lose nothing. If theoligans could come to understand that God is not running a damage control center from His throne of the universe God is not picking up the pieces. He is not trying to get things back to be as good as they once were. He is not trying to figure out how to outsmart satan. He is not falling bhind. God is far smarter and wiser than any man. God knows excalty what and where mankind would be in this day and time before He even made man. When oh when are we going to belive what the scriptures say???

 

[Quahom1]

If humankind had not fallen, and we had been born through unfallen parents, there would be no need to argue about whether God exists. We would naturally know it from birth.
Babies begin sucking as soon as they are born when they sense their mother’s breast in front of them. Do they need to learn how to suck while in the womb ? They automatically know how to do it.
If we had not fallen, we would naturally recognize and cultivate our relationship with God. We would automaticaly advance towards Him. But the Fall has taken away our ability to sense God’s presence at any time.
This is why the world is in doubt as to whether God exists. This is a tragic situation.

We are born with the Laws of God written on our hearts. We look at our parents and know they are "God" taking care of us. Everything is wonder and awe inspiring to us, until the first cognitive "dis-appointment", causes us to question.

That "dis-appointment" is the first step down the road of "self-interest", and is where our fallen nature manifests...

 

[Thomas]

Adam and Eve. Oh how they fallen. Wrong. No where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were a failure.

Er ... have you read Genesis 3:9-19 at all? You think God was laughing when His creation expressly disobeyed Him?

Look at it this way: You meet God. God says do what you like, but don't do that. So you do it. Now, who's stupid, God for giving you the chance to choose, for once in your life, to do the right thing, or man for thinking, given two options, that the one God said 'no' to is the one to go for?

First if one notice's, God planted the tree of good and evil right smack in the middle of the Garden (in the mist) to be correct. God planted the tree not satan. It probable would have been one if not the first thing they notice. The tree was beautiful and appealing to the eyes. (Why not plant it in the corner some where)??

I think you should get someone who understands Scripture to explain it to you.

if He did not want them to be tempted?

Who said He didn't?

People give God no more reasoning powers or abilities than sinful man.

Actually I think it's you who's assuming God thinks the way you do.

God knew excalty everything that Adam and Eve would do. He is God.

But if you understand Christianity, you will know that just because God knows what we will do, does not mean God wills what we do, or that God desires what we do. We are free to do as we will, that is God's greatest gift. That we choose to do the wrong thing is our choice, not God's.

When oh when are we going to belive what the scriptures say???

You tell me, you patently don't believe what Scripture says. According to you, it's all God's fault, we are blameless, we're all doing just what we're supposed to do, and all the suffering and pain in the world is there 'cos' God enjoys it?

Thomas

 

[TheKhan]

..then this multiply to the family level, then the clans, then the nation and the world.

Yes that is a question I`m asking as well. Its been a tough question to resolve, when families fight families for the right reasons.

I somehow hope that someone will reach a complete conclusion on this some day, or hear God on this topic and notify us..

TK

 

[winner08]

Er ... have you read Genesis 3:9-19 at all? You think God was laughing when His creation expressly disobeyed Him?

Look at it this way: You meet God. God says do what you like, but don't do that. So you do it. Now, who's stupid, God for giving you the chance to choose, for once in your life, to do the right thing, or man for thinking, given two options, that the one God said 'no' to is the one to go for?


I think you should get someone who understands Scripture to explain it to you.


Who said He didn't?


Actually I think it's you who's assuming God thinks the way you do.


But if you understand Christianity, you will know that just because God knows what we will do, does not mean God wills what we do, or that God desires what we do. We are free to do as we will, that is God's greatest gift. That we choose to do the wrong thing is our choice, not God's.


You tell me, you patently don't believe what Scripture says. According to you, it's all God's fault, we are blameless, we're all doing just what we're supposed to do, and all the suffering and pain in the world is there 'cos' God enjoys it?

Thomas

Thomas I can write a long reply showing you scripture that backs up my words but you will never believe them because it is not meant for you to understand. The Lord has not removed the scales from your eyes yet. So I am not even going to try.
I will leave you with this scripture and lets see how you manipulate it to fit you beliefs.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity, I , the Lord, do all these things. Of course you will know that in the hebrew text the word calamity is translated evil. but you already knew this didn't you???

Why is it so hard to believe that God would creat evil. This in no way did I say or imply that God Himself was evil. I said to be perfectly clear that God created evil not is evil. There's a huge difference.
Thanks for being so understanding and kind in your dealings with me. I thank you

 

[winner08]

Thomas I can write a long reply showing you scripture that backs up my words but you will never believe them because it is not meant for you to understand. The Lord has not removed the scales from your eyes yet. So I am not even going to try.
I will leave you with this scripture and lets see how you manipulate it to fit you beliefs.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity, I , the Lord, do all these things. Of course you will know that in the hebrew text the word calamity is translated evil. but you already knew this didn't you???

Why is it so hard to believe that God would creat evil. This in no way did I say or imply that God Himself was evil. I said to be perfectly clear that God created evil not is evil. There's a huge difference.
Thanks for being so understanding and kind in your dealings with me. I thank you

I wanted to add one more thing. you said that I blame God. Wrong you are so wrong Blame denotes wrong doing God is never wrong on anything He does. God has a plan and that plan is perfet in everyway. Whatever we do is part of His plan. God is never wrong God is never shocked or suprised at anything we do. He has a perfect plan and that plan is never thawrted by man. NEVER.

 

[Thomas]

My point is:
God never willed that we do wrong;
God never willed to create a beautiful world, and disfigure it with suffering;
God never willed that man should suffer.

That was man's doing.

God, in His wisdom, had taken the possibility of man's disobedience into account.
But God never intended man should sin — God did not create man to punish him.

We are obliged to admit our error, not explain it away as what God wanted all along.

Thomas

 

[winner08]

My point is:
God never willed that we do wrong;
God never willed to create a beautiful world, and disfigure it with suffering;
God never willed that man should suffer.

That was man's doing.

God, in His wisdom, had taken the possibility of man's disobedience into account.
But God never intended man should sin — God did not create man to punish him.

We are obliged to admit our error, not explain it away as what God wanted all along.

Thomas

Thomas you say God never willed that man should suffer. Where do you get this from have you ever read any of the old testament?? It is full of suffering and pain and death and destruction by the hand of God Just go and read some of the battles the isrealites fought. You will see where it is God's will for Isreal to totaly destroy everthing and everyone including men wemon and children and all animals and smash all idols. God not satan said this to the isrealites when they went into a city to take it over. If you want I will find you many scriptures that backs this up. It will take time but i will find them if you want proof. You can't have good without evil and God is the creator of both. Good and evil. Satan did not create evil. Satan is evil. God uses Satan for His own purpose. This 9does not mean God is evil and I did not say so so don't even try to put that on me. God created good and evil. He is not evil. Even the N.T. is full of pain and suffering. Jesus Christ Himself went throught the worst of pain and suffering. Do you think this was satans will. No It was
Gods will for His Son to go through this in order to Be the Saviour of the world. Satan can do nothing of his own accord God has total control over satan. And I will show you chapter and verse on this also in you would like. That is if it is your will.

 

[winner08]

There is so much I can say and back it up with God's own words but I know it is fallen on deaf ears. This is why I say I will show you (If you want).

 

[Thomas]

Thomas you say God never willed that man should suffer. Where do you get this from have you ever read any of the old testament??

Yes. Try Hosea 11:1 "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."
No parent who loves his child wills suffering on the child.

Have you read all the Old Testament, or just the 'blood and thunder' bits?
Have you read any of the New Testament?

Let's end it here ... it's not a case of citing Scripture, it's just that I don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible. I read the Old Testament in light of the New.

Thomas

 

[winner08]

Yes. Try Hosea 11:1 "When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."
No parent who loves his child wills suffering on the child.

Have you read all the Old Testament, or just the 'blood and thunder' bits?
Have you read any of the New Testament?

Let's end it here ... it's not a case of citing Scripture, it's just that I don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible. I read the Old Testament in light of the New.

Thomas

You are right Thomas. No parent (most) would not want their child to suffer. But many times a child must suffer in order to get to the outcome they are trying to get to. here is a perfect example.

A child fall down a cracks a tooth. The only way to get this fix is to bring her to a dentist. WE know it will be a painfull process. But when the pain and suffering is over the child will have a beautifull tooth. So we do (parents) what has to be done. Sometimes that means one must go through suffering and pain. can you see it??

 

[winner08]

My point is:
God never willed that we do wrong;
God never willed to create a beautiful world, and disfigure it with suffering;
God never willed that man should suffer.

That was man's doing.

God, in His wisdom, had taken the possibility of man's disobedience into account.
But God never intended man should sin — God did not create man to punish him.

We are obliged to admit our error, not explain it away as what God wanted all along.

Thomas

Thomas all i can say is this you do not believe that God is all soverign. You do not believe that God is in control of all things. You do not believe that scripture is God's word and that God does not lie and God does not change. for if you did then the scriptures I quoted over and over about God being the creator of evil Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and created darkness, I make peace and create calamity (evil) strong's Greek and Hebrew dictionaries. This scripture says it all If you believe in this scripture that God created evil, then you would have to believe all that goes along with it. That God did intend man to sin, if not why would He even create evil. Then you would have to believe that God created the devil (Satan). If So for what purpose to create havoic pain suffering.(sin) And If you believed that God was in control of all these things including the devil and all his doings then there goes all your unscriptual falsehoods. that you just stated above. God did create evil, Satan, He made man and He made made weak, full of vainty pride envy and spiritual weak Why would He do that and create evil? did God who knows everything from the end to the beginning think for one min that we could make it without sinning? If so why not create us in Jesus true image. A man who did not sin. God did this with Jesus. Why not the rest of humanity? Why because Jesus was full of God's spirit and God would not allowe im to sin. As for us We are meant to sin How can one of us not sin no matter how hard you try no matter how much you pray no matter how bad you don't want to sin your going to. So if God did not intend man to sin Then why put all this in front of us. Why make us the way He did. and about free will. Listen you can't name me one person who ever lived who (willed) willed, not to sin and did not sin in their lifetime, impossible,. So why can man not sin I mean if he has free will why can man use his free will not to sin I will not to sin but I cant do and neither can anybody else why because yours and my will are weak weak weak. So I guess it comes down to this either you belive in what the scripture says therefore believing that God is in control of all things or not.

 

[winner08]

Thomas you said God never willed we do wrong OK what's your ansewr to this very plain and to the point scripture?
1kings 21-22 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said. I will persuade him. The Lord said to him In what way? So he said I will go out and be a lying spirit (lying spirit) in the mouth of all his prophets. and the Lord said you shall persuade him (andd you also prevail) Go out and do so Therefore look the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you,
Right here the Lord is giving permission to a lying spirit to go out and lie and declare a disaster against you. How plain can it get. God gave His permission to a spirit to go out and lie. Right here God has control of an evil spirit and uses this evil spirit to go out and lie against humans and declare disaster against them. Here you go Thomas plain and to the point. God uses evil for His purplses against anyone or anything He wants. To serve :His purpose. I know you will try to denied what this scripture says and twist it around to try to say something else. There's one thing you can not do and that is show me a scripture where God Does not use evil for His purpose. If you cant then it is not so. or Jesus would have said so. God's word does not lie and one day you'll see the truth.