The Modern challenge to Christianity

[TheKhan]

Yes the bacteria powered micrometer is a good picture of humanity. we keep turning in circles and believe this movement to be "progress."

I`ll humor your depressing imagination. Imagination like that I agree you might want to turn it off, but don`t recommend it to everybody.

Stop making things up like "my god", "your god", I worship wealth etc..

Book is a technology. And you claim technology to be a source of imagination that would deny us God. And you assume that certain kinds of technology due to circumstances are for the minority.

And I say that all of this is a gift from God and we need to appreciate it by not putting it to waste. Well again I think I`ve said this to you before, I`d have to recommend that you live at a place where there is no plumbing, no electricity, no TV, no roof, no phone, no roads, and you can somehow recommend to others under those circumstances on why it is unethical to hold wealth, and stay there.

And money do we need to feed the needy. Don`t tell me I`m wrong, because I`m not. Its part of the deal, we don`t need money if we`re dead.

Anyways, the title of this thread was "The Modern challenge to Christianity", and somehow you managed to change it into a discussion for the "slaves for the higher purpose" like yourself, and accused me to be a money worshiper.

I was trying to suggest that a "modern garden of Eden" is on its way. And due to your tendency to suggest that creativity and imagination is evil, I am stating that creativity and business is not a sin.

In response to you accusing me of being a money worshiper, I tell you to get your arms out of your ass and feel the air, although it might stink a little in your case.


TK

 

[Nick_A]

TK

I`ll humor your depressing imagination. Imagination like that I agree you might want to turn it off, but don`t recommend it to everybody.

You can humor me if you'd like but I prefer to agree with the impartial author of Ecclesiastes 3 where he writes

1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live. 13 That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him. 15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account.

I can choose to be insulted or by experience come to see that people continue to say the same things, feel the same things and do the same things just in different forms. The same things have been said about war from the beginning but we turn in circles so the cycle of war and peace along with the others continue.

If a person wants the truth they have to be impartial towards its experience. Most want a favorable illusion so get insulted and fight over which is the more favorable illusion. To each his own.

Book is a technology. And you claim technology to be a source of imagination that would deny us God. And you assume that certain kinds of technology due to circumstances are for the minority.

Anything can be a source of imagination. Media is a substitute for the natural awe experienced in nature. We've become less perceptive so are more open for the enchantments produced by technology to compensate for our dulled senses and the loss of awe. It seems only a certain minority are willing and capable of retaining our experience of nature. Most prefer technology to help us create our imaginary reality.

And I say that all of this is a gift from God and we need to appreciate it by not putting it to waste. Well again I think I`ve said this to you before, I`d have to recommend that you live at a place where there is no plumbing, no electricity, no TV, no roof, no phone, no roads, and you can somehow recommend to others under those circumstances on why it is unethical to hold wealth, and stay there.

Why practice escapism?. What is wrong about acquiring the ability to put technology into a conscious perspective?

And money do we need to feed the needy. Don`t tell me I`m wrong, because I`m not. Its part of the deal, we don`t need money if we`re dead.

Again, the real question is if money can serve humanity or humanity must serve money. Any addiction is a god. If Coke is an addiction it is your god. If we believe we need money and are willing to sacrifice everything for it, then it is our god: Our pearl of great price.

Anyways, the title of this thread was "The Modern challenge to Christianity", and somehow you managed to change it into a discussion for the "slaves for the higher purpose" like yourself, and accused me to be a money worshiper.

As St. Paul said, we will be a slave to something. The Christian is a slave to higher purpose. The contention of this thread is that it is through conscious influences in the world that the more dangerous parts of cycles are minimized. It is through intermediate Christianity that a person can become closer to being a Christian and serving a higher purpose defined as "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

I was trying to suggest that a "modern garden of Eden" is on its way. And due to your tendency to suggest that creativity and imagination is evil, I am stating that creativity and business is not a sin.

Today is made of the same stuff as yesterday which in turn will create tomorrow which is made of the same stuff as today. Why should it be any different if it is all the same stuff? How does the same stuff create a garden of Eden?

In response to you accusing me of being a money worshiper, I tell you to get your arms out of your ass and feel the air, although it might stink a little in your case.

The same negativity in you is in most all of us depending on circumstances. It is how we are. How does it transform into a garden of Eden?
The contention of the thread is that we need a new conception of God and of man for appreciating both universal and human meaning and purpose so as to allow technology to serve Man rather than a tool for participating in muytual self destruction. This is putting new wine into new bottles. It is obvious to me that as a whole we prefer arguing to considering that we may be old bottles. I cannot see a functioning free society that seeks to aid in a person's need to become themselves for the benefit of themselves and society as a whole that also serves to put technology into a conscious perspective much less a garden of Eden be produced by old bottles.

But we defend our own old bottles so everything lawfully turns in circles.

 

[TheKhan]

Today is made of the same stuff as yesterday which in turn will create tomorrow which is made of the same stuff as today. Why should it be any different if it is all the same stuff? How does the same stuff create a garden of Eden?

OK, I think there may be some progress if you somehow conceive the idea, that although it may seem that yesterday is the same as tomorrow, you know that there is nothing in this universe that is an absolute constant. (maybe except for God depending on who you talk to)

Meaning although it may seem that yesterday was the same as today, it never is. I know what its like to feel like going in circles, and that we do, but the important thing is we take even a micro-inch forward everyday. That I think we can agree on. The fact that we take that step forward everyday although may seem minute, that accumulates and eventually brings us to another cycle, dreadful for you, most likely observing your take on things.

And it is getting real close as far as material scarcity goes, which is a major reason that is causing the dread in the world, to become abolished. Just like we abolished fascism, colonialism and slavery to a point. Now we do need to abolish imperialist fake-communism a new major religion after Islam by surpassing it, not just in mind but by reality which will become possible with just another couple decades of technology development. Its another industrial revolution, and things do get better..

That is when the hypocrites from all sides, our side, tyrant side, revolutionaries, communist sides will try to do their old work, possibly by starting to exterminate us to make it easier for us to be controlled. I`d just have to say, we need to just get rid of that small minority control freak elitists who are bent on utilizing us as batteries for their own personal agenda if that were to occur. Because we don`t have to work for noone, in terms of physicality, to be fed, to have energy, to have a roof over our head once that future comes. The control freaks will only be controlling us because they want to be control freaks, and we will allow them to be unless we change our mindset.

After and while we get rid of most of the control freaks, you can do all the nagging you like about how we defy the Grace of God, we shouldn`t create weapons and that we are selfish etc.. because thats what would be needed. Because that would be the biggest problem we have then, but for now to get to the main problems its mostly about logistics, and how poor people should support themselves (water, energy, food). With rice I`d say its possible to wipe out starvation from the world. If we could mass-pick atoms from thin air and construct things like food and water, it`d be even better.

So frankly I personally would like to expand on something like:
John David Garcia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Into areas of securing almost free energy. There are many others who are well ahead of me, fyi. In the mean time I seek capital and seek to start institutions whether thats possible or not, because that is my environment.

OK, nothing in our material world is a constant. Although I`d really like to think that our low level consiousness makes progress, it iritates me too. Some day I think I`ll have to literally kick some ass since I`m tired of even telling people to get their ass out of my face. Thats a monkey trait.

Best regards,

TK

 

[Nick_A]

TK

OK, I think there may be some progress if you somehow conceive the idea, that although it may seem that yesterday is the same as tomorrow, you know that there is nothing in this universe that is an absolute constant. (maybe except for God depending on who you talk to)

I agree. The one constant in the universe is that everything is in the process of change. Everything is either participating in the process of evolution or involution. By same stuff it is meant its "being" and not necessarily manifestation. Manifestations change according to external circumstances but the makeup that is participating in both evolution and involution stays relatively the same. It is its "being."

Meaning although it may seem that yesterday was the same as today, it never is. I know what its like to feel like going in circles, and that we do, but the important thing is we take even a micro-inch forward everyday. That I think we can agree on. The fact that we take that step forward everyday although may seem minute, that accumulates and eventually brings us to another cycle, dreadful for you, most likely observing your take on things.

Our being is part of the collective being or organic life on earth within which everything turns in circles. However organic life evolves as part of this living machine we know of as life on earth is dependent on the evolution of the planet Earth itself. This moves veeeerrrry slowly from our perception of time so evolution is not sensed by us. Very slow spirals we would call the process of evolution are appreciated psychologically as circles. There is nothing dreadful about this other than being an unnecessary slave to it.

You seem to be caught up in what to do. You believe that material imbalance, the haves and have nots, is the cause of the problem. I believe it is the nature of our collective being that must manifest as haves and have nots.

People write books about ethics telling what others should do. We always tell others what to do but everything turns out as before because it is the reflection of our "being."

The trouble is that we like to imagine our being to be something different than it is. We build on a faulty foundation so ethics must crumble. the way out is to begin to become open to what we don't want to do since it is an insult to our ego. Those like Prof. Needleman understand the foundation. I just doubt we can get beyond insult and be open to it.. He wrote

Whether it is conventional religion or secular humanism, or any other modern program of morality or inner betterment, the question remains: Can there be any hope or our becoming what we are meant to be without first becoming fully and deeply aware of what we in fact are, now, here, in just this moment of our lives? Whether religious or not, is there any hope for man who has lost this capacity, or forgotten the need, to know himself and to be alive and present in himself?

It is nice that those like Garcia write books about ethics. But can it ever be meaningful as long as we are what we are? If we allow ourselves to forget the need to know ourselves, then ethics will always remain the expressions of hypocrisy that we experience every day.

I hope there will always be a minority willing to admit and "know thyself." The growth in their own being and its beneficial effect on humanity as a whole that prefers to imagine itself and consequently follow the normal lawful cycles of nature is essential IMO for our survival.

Otherwise we get more books and more hypocrisy simply because we lack a foundation to build upon. we don't know ourselves.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself". Tolstoy

But before changing anything other then ones personality in order to better serve a societal norm, it is necessary to have the experience of oneself to separate the wheat from the tares, the real from the unreal, within our psych. The experience of ourselves is to "know thyself." I've seen and world history proves that we prefer to imagine ourselves so there is no foundation and everything just continues in the same cycles. This phenomenon is often referred to as the "human condition."

 

[TheKhan]

You seem to be caught up in what to do. You believe that material imbalance, the haves and have nots, is the cause of the problem. I believe it is the nature of our collective being that must manifest as haves and have nots.

Yes, I am caught up in it, it is one of my major priorities, while you stating things should be done from the inside, I choose an external approach by satisfying all the instinctive needs(absolute minimum) of man that make him/her strong and in-tune with God first, according to what I believe. That is a dilemma we face as living objects, and we also do have the physical/mental means to avoid such dilemmas, like war, but I choose external first. Many others are doing the work as we speak.

And only after the external is satisfied, then I can see that man can truly attend to things like what Christianity may preach. The reason why I think things should be done in this order is because there are some things we cannot avoid by just pursuing religious ideals. A mother is going to want to kill the other family if her family is put at risk, and why? I say the main reason why we compete is because of material scarcity. Once that is cleared, then we can deal with the ego. You can start from the ego if you want to but it won`t end nothing as long as women give birth to children, until we live in an environment like Eden where there are no material worries (I don`t want to use this term anymore, it sounds corny). Why materials first? Its because WE LIVE!!

And what I think is the solution is creativity when it comes to solving scarcity in material objects. I think you slightly missed my point when I referenced Garcia, although I don`t think like Garcia that the brain is a quantum mechanical device, I agree with his general theme with regards to creativity.

..he sought to advance human evolution through increased moral awareness and creativity. (Creativity = Intelligence * ethics).

.. was to spend the last 30 years of his life trying to persuade as many people as possible to devote their lives to maximizing creativity instead of happiness..

I won`t be working on persuading people though. I would ideally like to build the environment for creativity and be part of it.

Only after our material/external needs are truly satisfied to a minimum, can we truly start making accusation of ill egos. Or people can always slither away making excuses that they are doing it in the name of love, family and God. When materials are satisfied and noone can complain of any wrong doing with regards to those areas, there will not be an inch left in making any excuses besides being accused of listening to the ego. That is the environment I feel should be created, that can possibly be created.

Your way is old, although in the late 1800`s I think many thought that the time had come, and what did we do?, we all tried to take over the planet competing for resources. I certainly hope we get it done during this century.

We should come up with that oven in Startrek first. Then we can listen to all the lame excuses people may come up with.

TK

P.S. When it gets to things like this, these are still my ideals. I`d like to make it a reality in the near future. And this is what I view as the "modern challenge to Christianity".

 

[TheKhan]

So therefore Nick,

I would like you to stop stating that creativity is some how the problem.

TK

 

[Nick_A]

TK

Yes, I am caught up in it, it is one of my major priorities, while you stating things should be done from the inside, I choose an external approach by satisfying all the instinctive needs(absolute minimum) of man that make him/her strong and in-tune with God first, according to what I believe. That is a dilemma we face as living objects, and we also do have the physical/mental means to avoid such dilemmas, like war, but I choose external first. Many others are doing the work as we speak.

And only after the external is satisfied, then I can see that man can truly attend to things like what Christianity may preach. The reason why I think things should be done in this order is because there are some things we cannot avoid by just pursuing religious ideals. A mother is going to want to kill the other family if her family is put at risk, and why? I say the main reason why we compete is because of material scarcity. Once that is cleared, then we can deal with the ego. You can start from the ego if you want to but it won`t end nothing as long as women give birth to children, until we live in an environment like Eden where there are no material worries (I don`t want to use this term anymore, it sounds corny). Why materials first? Its because WE LIVE!!

And what I think is the solution is creativity when it comes to solving scarcity in material objects. I think you slightly missed my point when I referenced Garcia, although I don`t think like Garcia that the brain is a quantum mechanical device, I agree with his general theme with regards to creativity.

Quote:
..he sought to advance human evolution through increased moral awareness and creativity. (Creativity = Intelligence * ethics).
Quote:
.. was to spend the last 30 years of his life trying to persuade as many people as possible to devote their lives to maximizing creativity instead of happiness..

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe that Jesus was right when he said in Luke 20:

25"Caesar's," they replied.
He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

It makes more sense to me than only concerning oneself with God once Caesar is satisfied. God in this sense refers to our inner life and Caesar, to our outer worldly life.
Your way indicates to me that the essential purpose for our existence is our external life that is fulfilled once there is no need external need. However, I think you underestimate humanities need for prestige which is a psychological rather than material need. We like to speak of equality but in reality we need prestige which is only acquired through a feeling of superiority.

"The defect of equality is that we only desire it with our superiors." - Henry Becque

Men can talk about share and share alike all they want but when the cute blonde walks by waving her behind at them, so much for sharing..

"Shower upon him every blessing, drown him in a sea of happiness, give him economic prosperity, such as that he should have nothing else to do but sleep, eat cakes, and busy himself with the continuation of his species, and even then, out of sheer ingratitude, sheer spite, man would play you some nasty trick. He would even risk his cakes and would deliberately desire the most fatal rubbish, the utmost economic absurdity, simply to introduce into all this positive good sense his fatal fantastic element. DOSTOEVSKI

You think he is being depressing and I believe him to be realistic. I can respect your intentions but nothing I've experienced leads me to believe it is at all possible. Instead I believe Prof. Needleman is right and the real benefits can only come from the solid foundation of self knowledge that reveals ourselves and our connection to the source of the "good" that allows us to put ourselves into a higher perspective then normal prestige.

 

[Marsh]

You think he is being depressing and I believe him to be realistic. I can respect your intentions but nothing I've experienced leads me to believe it is at all possible. Instead I believe Prof. Needleman is right and the real benefits can only come from the solid foundation of self knowledge that reveals ourselves and our connection to the source of the "good" that allows us to put ourselves into a higher perspective then normal prestige.[/SIZE][/FONT]

See, here's the thing that I just can't understand, Nicky, and even though I'm still not sure if you are or want to be or think of yourself as a Christian or not, I'm going to reply as if you are:

1. You have knowledge of the one true God who created you;

2. You have knowledge of his chosen servant and begotten son Jesus Christ, who came to earth in order to help you to find meaning in all the chaos that is life;

3. You have the Holy Spirit (Jesus' spirit if you will) who is with you to guide you toward truth and away from falseness;

4. And yet you are looking for guidance from some guy named Professor Needleman?!?!

I can't believe I'm listening to a Christian arguing his belief in some mortal man whose knowledge will be fashionable for a while until the next academic comes along, meanwhile Jesus himself is looking down at him and wondering, "When is he ever going to ask me?" I know that Jesus doesn't have a doctorate, Nick, but nevertheless I find it bizarre (and, frankly, amusing) that you are speaking of this professor like he's a prophet or something. And what's with that name, anyways? Needleman. He sounds like a twit. "Hi, I'm Professor Needleman." And so on.

And based on what you said about being lost in your imagination or something like that, you don't need Professor Needleman; you need Dr. Phil, and I'm only saying that half-jokingly, because while my counsel to most Christians who feel that way would be to look for answers in prayer, prayer isn't tangible enough for you, Nick. This wandering is precisely what I asked you about before, and what I suggested might be the price to pay for too much questioning and not enough following and so long as you are looking for answers from the Needlemen of the world, I think you'd better invest in a good pair of wandering shoes.

BTW: You may be lost, but I'm not, so if you're going to generalize please leave me out of it, friend. Drop as many names of as many writer/philosophers as you'd like, but their combined knowledge is still a flickering candle compared to the light that shines from the knowledge of God. You want to become unlost? Follow the shepherd.

Marsh

 

[Nick_A]

See, here's the thing that I just can't understand, Nicky, and even though I'm still not sure if you are or want to be or think of yourself as a Christian or not, I'm going to reply as if you are:

1. You have knowledge of the one true God who created you;

2. You have knowledge of his chosen servant and begotten son Jesus Christ, who came to earth in order to help you to find meaning in all the chaos that is life;

3. You have the Holy Spirit (Jesus' spirit if you will) who is with you to guide you toward truth and away from falseness;

4. And yet you are looking for guidance from some guy named Professor Needleman?!?!

I can't believe I'm listening to a Christian arguing his belief in some mortal man whose knowledge will be fashionable for a while until the next academic comes along, meanwhile Jesus himself is looking down at him and wondering, "When is he ever going to ask me?" I know that Jesus doesn't have a doctorate, Nick, but nevertheless I find it bizarre (and, frankly, amusing) that you are speaking of this professor like he's a prophet or something. And what's with that name, anyways? Needleman. He sounds like a twit. "Hi, I'm Professor Needleman." And so on.

And based on what you said about being lost in your imagination or something like that, you don't need Professor Needleman; you need Dr. Phil, and I'm only saying that half-jokingly, because while my counsel to most Christians who feel that way would be to look for answers in prayer, prayer isn't tangible enough for you, Nick. This wandering is precisely what I asked you about before, and what I suggested might be the price to pay for too much questioning and not enough following and so long as you are looking for answers from the Needlemen of the world, I think you'd better invest in a good pair of wandering shoes.

BTW: You may be lost, but I'm not, so if you're going to generalize please leave me out of it, friend. Drop as many names of as many writer/philosophers as you'd like, but their combined knowledge is still a flickering candle compared to the light that shines from the knowledge of God. You want to become unlost? Follow the shepherd.

Marsh

Hi Marsh

See, here's the thing that I just can't understand, Nicky, and even though I'm still not sure if you are or want to be or think of yourself as a Christian or not, I'm going to reply as if you are:

I'm a pre-Christian.

You have knowledge of the one true God who created you

I'm aware of a quality of wholeness that totally dwarfs me and beyond my comprehension.

2. You have knowledge of his chosen servant and begotten son Jesus Christ, who came to earth in order to help you to find meaning in all the chaos that is life;

Yes the idea of the mediator between God and Man seems necessary when considering the distance between God and Man. Without this help from above we are as is said out in left field.

You have the Holy Spirit (Jesus' spirit if you will) who is with you to guide you toward truth and away from falseness;

The Holy spirit is an attribute of a Christian. A pre-Christian experiences the spirit at times but most often is receiving the influence of emotional energy that justifies and intensifies our egotism. John suggests to "test the spirits" but we usually don't know how to do it.

4. And yet you are looking for guidance from some guy named Professor Needleman?!?!

I'll take help from anyone that understands something.

I can't believe I'm listening to a Christian arguing his belief in some mortal man whose knowledge will be fashionable for a while until the next academic comes along,

Prof Needleman quotes the Christian Fathers and men like Metropolitan Anthony in revealing Lost Christianity. Perhaps they know of things that you have not considered. He is not giving a lecture but inviting one to ponder: a lost art.

meanwhile Jesus himself is looking down at him and wondering, "When is he ever going to ask me?" I know that Jesus doesn't have a doctorate, Nick, but nevertheless I find it bizarre (and, frankly, amusing) that you are speaking of this professor like he's a prophet or something. And what's with that name, anyways?

Jesus did his job and went back where he came from. Sometimes people rise in their being to experience Jesus but this is rare. Jesus is not concerned with our egotism. He left the means for people to rise in their being. What you do here isn't important. The Spirit now is our guide since Jesus returned to his origin.

And what's with that name, anyways? Needleman. He sounds like a twit. "Hi, I'm Professor Needleman." And so on.

Now you want to make fun of names. We don't know Jesus last name. It isn't either Christ nor is it the son of God Dammit. Suppose we learn his last name was Schwartz? Are you going to make fun of the name Jesus Schwartz and say he sounds like a twit? The atheists will beat you to it.

And based on what you said about being lost in your imagination or something like that, you don't need Professor Needleman; you need Dr. Phil, and I'm only saying that half-jokingly, because while my counsel to most Christians who feel that way would be to look for answers in prayer, prayer isn't tangible enough for you, Nick. This wandering is precisely what I asked you about before, and what I suggested might be the price to pay for too much questioning and not enough following and so long as you are looking for answers from the Needlemen of the world, I think you'd better invest in a good pair of wandering shoes.

IMO you represent the self deception typical for the modern advocates of Christendom. You may not be following what you believe you are following.

BTW: You may be lost, but I'm not, so if you're going to generalize please leave me out of it, friend. Drop as many names of as many writer/philosophers as you'd like, but their combined knowledge is still a flickering candle compared to the light that shines from the knowledge of God. You want to become unlost? Follow the shepherd.

I'm happy that you believe yourself found and be content with justifying yourself by making fun of names like "Needleman." I am grateful that people like him can help others through his search to come to appreciate that Christianity is far deeper and more meaningful that we give it credit for.

Amazon.com: Lost Christianity: Jacob Needleman: Books

It isn't your thing but has allowed people that were turned off to Christendom to discover the true essence of Christianity. You can make fun of these people but I consider them priceless

 

[wil]

Yes the idea of the mediator between God and Man seems necessary when considering the distance between God and Man. Without this help from above we are as is said out in left field.

Distance? Mediator? If Jesus taught us anything he eliminated the need for mediators.

 

[Nick_A]

Distance? Mediator? If Jesus taught us anything he eliminated the need for mediators.

This means that Jesus wasn't a necessary mediator. I disagree and support St. Augustine of Hippo.

The One Mediator between God and Man | Jesus Christ died for all | Saint Augustine's Confession -Welcome to The Crossroads Initiative

 

[TheKhan]

Anyways Nick,

You will continue to see many good Christians busy being creative, striving to be strong as long as it is necessary and we people are curious.

True, real Christianity starts at a higher place, but most of us are not there yet, and we`ll need to protect ourselves without showing the other cheek (sorry religious people..) for a while.

It is often the case that the righteous are stronger.

The stronger one is, relative to those that may want to harm, there will be less harm done on either sides if one side was incredibly stronger. Provided that the stronger side is not mean like some countries...... In that sense we should not give up any of our gifts. Maybe in the future.

In my book and don`t ask me where it came from, maybe from my brain, it is a sin to choose to be weak. And we must continue to be physically strong that includes imagination and technology, as well as strong in the mind and a couple other things.

Peace.

TK

 

[Nick_A]

Anyways Nick,

You will continue to see many good Christians busy being creative, striving to be strong as long as it is necessary and we people are curious.

True, real Christianity starts at a higher place, but most of us are not there yet, and we`ll need to protect ourselves without showing the other cheek (sorry religious people..) for a while.

It is often the case that the righteous are stronger.

The stronger one is, relative to those that may want to harm, there will be less harm done on either sides if one side was incredibly stronger. Provided that the stronger side is not mean like some countries...... In that sense we should not give up any of our gifts. Maybe in the future.

In my book and don`t ask me where it came from, maybe from my brain, it is a sin to choose to be weak. And we must continue to be physically strong that includes imagination and technology, as well as strong in the mind and a couple other things.

Peace.

TK

Christianity doesn't deny the importance of the ability to do but rather helps us to know what to do. If we are asleep in Plato's cave we may acquire the ability to do many things. However if what we do is a function of fallen man asleep in Plato's cave, the value of what is produced or how it is used is questionable. We can develop more efficient ways to heal and to kill at the same time.

Prof. Needleman contends that Christianity connecting heaven and earth leads to real "doing" initiating from an inner morality, "understanding" we can begin to be in touch with from experiences normal for Intermediate Christianity. We can become open to the experience of what it means to be truly human and our simultaneous connection with the higher and lower rather then just as creatures of reaction.

Nothing weak about this.

 

[Marsh]

Yes the idea of the mediator between God and Man seems necessary when considering the distance between God and Man. Without this help from above we are as is said out in left field...

Prof Needleman quotes the Christian Fathers and men like Metropolitan Anthony in revealing Lost Christianity. Perhaps they know of things that you have not considered. He is not giving a lecture but inviting one to ponder: a lost art...

Jesus did his job and went back where he came from. Sometimes people rise in their being to experience Jesus but this is rare. Jesus is not concerned with our egotism. He left the means for people to rise in their being. What you do here isn't important. The Spirit now is our guide since Jesus returned to his origin.

Now you want to make fun of names. We don't know Jesus last name. It isn't either Christ nor is it the son of God Dammit...

IMO you represent the self deception typical for the modern advocates of Christendom. You may not be following what you believe you are following...

It isn't your thing but has allowed people that were turned off to Christendom to discover the true essence of Christianity. You can make fun of these people but I consider them priceless

Wow! So you're not a Christian, but you want to lead Christians in a new direction to find meaning-- the true essence, as you've called it. Dude, before it was just regular bizarre; now it's David Koresh bizarre

You don't know me (I don't know you, either, and aren't claiming to), but if you did you'd know that I'm the kind of guy who enjoys a good laugh, and tries not to take things seriously all the time. The crack about Professor Needleman's name, for example. Seriously, I think I'd have less of an objection to your posts if the guy's name was Professor Smith, or Professor Jones, or Professor Anythingexceptneedleman. But it seems to me that you're defending his honour with the same degree of fervour that Christians defend Jesus, and that you're putting him in the place that Jesus should be (i.e. the source of meaning), which is what I see as strange.

Jesus did his job, and now he's on a shelf somewhere in Heaven while Professor Needleman is bringing the world to enlightenment.

Sorry if I find that kind of thinking strange, but I really do. I mean, the distance between God and people is precisely the reason why Jesus was sent to us, and the fact that you're writing on a Christian forum but don't understand that astounds me. Maybe that's because I'm another self-deceived Christian (in that I actually believe in Jesus, rather than figuratively believing in him), but whatever; the comfort I feel tells me that what I've read is true, and if you want to believe I'm deceiving myself then that's up to you, but only one of us is wandering aimlessly because only one of us is without a shepherd. I'm wandering, but with direction.

Professor Needleman is quoting Christian fathers and Christian writers, but what about Christ? With guys like this (who are, in essence, spiritual snake-oil peddlers of the same variety as Oprah and Dr. Phil) it is not the long lost art of ponderance that's at issue, but the very real and current one of selling books to the insecure among us by pretending they know what they're talking about.

"Perhaps they know of things you have not considered," you asked. Nick, perhaps they know absolutely nothing, because in comparison to the truth embodied in the person of Jesus Christ, that's really all we know.

And Jesus did not come here to make the path straight for Professor Needleman

 

[Professor Needleman]

I agree with Marsh.

PN

 

[Dream]

In my book and don`t ask me where it came from, maybe from my brain, it is a sin to choose to be weak. And we must continue to be physically strong that includes imagination and technology, as well as strong in the mind and a couple other things.

That speaks to me, TK. Choosing to be weak is wrong, and for a corollary: it is wrong to induce weakness in others. This weakens us all.

 

[Nick_A]

Wow! So you're not a Christian, but you want to lead Christians in a new direction to find meaning-- the true essence, as you've called it. Dude, before it was just regular bizarre; now it's David Koresh bizarre

You don't know me (I don't know you, either, and aren't claiming to), but if you did you'd know that I'm the kind of guy who enjoys a good laugh, and tries not to take things seriously all the time. The crack about Professor Needleman's name, for example. Seriously, I think I'd have less of an objection to your posts if the guy's name was Professor Smith, or Professor Jones, or Professor Anythingexceptneedleman. But it seems to me that you're defending his honour with the same degree of fervour that Christians defend Jesus, and that you're putting him in the place that Jesus should be (i.e. the source of meaning), which is what I see as strange.

Jesus did his job, and now he's on a shelf somewhere in Heaven while Professor Needleman is bringing the world to enlightenment.

Sorry if I find that kind of thinking strange, but I really do. I mean, the distance between God and people is precisely the reason why Jesus was sent to us, and the fact that you're writing on a Christian forum but don't understand that astounds me. Maybe that's because I'm another self-deceived Christian (in that I actually believe in Jesus, rather than figuratively believing in him), but whatever; the comfort I feel tells me that what I've read is true, and if you want to believe I'm deceiving myself then that's up to you, but only one of us is wandering aimlessly because only one of us is without a shepherd. I'm wandering, but with direction.

Professor Needleman is quoting Christian fathers and Christian writers, but what about Christ? With guys like this (who are, in essence, spiritual snake-oil peddlers of the same variety as Oprah and Dr. Phil) it is not the long lost art of ponderance that's at issue, but the very real and current one of selling books to the insecure among us by pretending they know what they're talking about.

"Perhaps they know of things you have not considered," you asked. Nick, perhaps they know absolutely nothing, because in comparison to the truth embodied in the person of Jesus Christ, that's really all we know.

And Jesus did not come here to make the path straight for Professor Needleman

Marsh, Jacob Needleman doesn't give answers but presents questions. He invites us to think with impartiality. He presents the idea that where we've had great technological advances, we have no more of a moral awareness then we did hundreds of years ago. This condition is a time bomb waiting to explode. You don't want to think that perhaps Christianity was always known for being more then just blind belief but actually help in developing inner morality.

OK it isn't your thing but there are some that do not find the conflict between spirituality and thought that you do. You like to make fun of names but could you carry on a discussion of deeper ideas over the air. Can you raise questions or are you just limited to complaints and ridicule? If this is what you've learned from your religion, it has no appeal to me. I prefer to be part of the solution rather than the problem intensified through nastiness and ridicule. You cannot appreciate these people that invite us to ponder. Your choice. I have the greatest respect for them

SPIRITUALITY AND THE INTELLECT with JACOB NEEDLEMAN

NEEDLEMAN: I'll tell you, it's a very strange thing. And it may even sound sort of obvious, but I don't think it is. I've discovered it in my work with groups like you've mentioned -- doctors, businesspeople, psychologists, religious educators, young people. Real inquiry is a tremendous moral transforming force. And that's what Socrates was -- he was inquiring, searching, questioning. And he knew how to do that. It's not just questioning and looking for a quick answer or an explanation, but the process of inquiry -- of questioning, of opening -- opens something in the human being which has not been touched in our culture. So it's really not a question of whether you're in this field or that field. Everybody who is human has in themselves the potential of passionate inquiry after truth, and that's the transforming force. Now that's what I'm doing, no matter where I am. I'm trying.

 

[Marsh]

You like to make fun of names but could you carry on a discussion of deeper ideas over the air. Can you raise questions or are you just limited to complaints and ridicule? If this is what you've learned from your religion, it has no appeal to me. I prefer to be part of the solution rather than the problem intensified through nastiness and ridicule. You cannot appreciate these people that invite us to ponder.

Ah, I've been called-out. Well, I'm no Professor Needleman, but I'll try my best to satisfy your requirements for civilized discussion, Nick.

I would like to object to the ideas presented by the aforesaid professor on the basis that, in the scope of history through the Christian point of view, they add absolutely nothing to our collective understanding of the course of world events. Although to someone without the benefit of spiritual knowledge they may seem deep and meaningful, to the Christian (and we are in a Christian forum, I might remind you) who has an understanding of God's will and even a cursory knowledge of the past, Needleman's core ideas amount to nothing but truisms.

The idea that you seem to be astounded by-- that our knowledge is outpacing our morality-- is as obvious to the Christian as any. God said to Adam that if he was to partake in knowledge, that he would surely die-- he, and all of his decendants upon whom he'd brought down a curse through his actions. If morality can be defined as the adherence to essential goodness, and if God can be defined as essential goodness, then the entire history of human beings is the history of knowledge outpacing morality, because nobody has ever been as close to God as Adam was, and yet our knowledge today far exceeds that which may logically be attributed to Adam.

Indeed, Jesus Christ represents a return to simple morality-- one based on love and the understanding of love instead of on codes of law and their application by the so-called intellectual elite of the time. Jesus' main criticism of the scribes and the pharisees has to do with their hypocrisy: saying that they are God's followers, and yet not following God, nor helping others to follow God. However, in the eyes of the scribes and pharisees of the time they were not hypocrites, but righteous followers-- a fact validated by the cannon of knowledge accepted by their peers. It's essentially a self-perpetuating cycle of knowledge and immorality: we adapt the standard of morality based on our increasing knowledge, and through the increase of knowledge we in turn adapt the standard of morality to the point that it becomes perfectly normal to kill innocent people-- specifically, Jesus himself. Had the religious establishment of the time returned to simple morality, they surely would have seen Jesus for who he was, but this was simply not going to happen due to the overwhelming tide of knowledge that had swept through not only those elites, but essentially every elite.

Since the very beginning, the course of human history has been moving toward two things: an increase in knowledge, and a decrease in morality. If one analyzes any society that rises and falls, it will certainly be the case that the analysis will reveal that said society has increased in knowledge since its beginnings, and that its essential morality has decayed by its end, and the general trend will be that the more "smart" a culture becomes, the stronger it gets, and the faster it falls from not only its original ideals, but also the kind of common morality and general good described by Immanuel Kant as the categorical imperative, and railed against by Marx and other communist writers as bourgeous decadence. Have you ever asked yourself how a society built on philosophy and rationality could rationalize the wholesale buggering of young children as an expression of their concept of love? Or how the ICBM and the hydrogen bomb could be included in the list of mankind's greatest achievements? And it is essentially this self-destructive tendency that leads history into the end-times, when things get so out of hand that God has no choice but to put an end to the system of things that will be brought around by generations of elites who combine to re-cast the world in their own image based on knowledge that is not tempered by morality.

Therefore, the idea that a learned man like Needleman could sit back and claim that this self-destructive trend is a couple hundred years old is just silly, almost ridiculous, and certainly nothing new.

And by the way, I care very little if my religion appeals to you, Nick. I'm well aware of what you're up to, and why you as a "pre-Christian" have posted this topic on this particular forum.

 

[wil]

..Indeed, Jesus Christ represents a return to simple morality-- one based on love and the understanding of love...

Since the very beginning, the course of human history has been moving toward two things: an increase in knowledge, and a decrease in morality

Namaste Marsh,

I culled these two quotes out of your text as they seemed exceedingly appropriate to the crux of the thread topic.

ie... a. second statement: It is time for Christianity to return to this simple morality instead of all the pomp and circumstance surrouding the display of its religion.

b. second statement: We need to look at the bible critically and identify myth, hyperbole and allegory so folks aren't confused and think it all to be litteral historical fact.

These two things alone to me could bring a resurgence of new Christians and return folks back to the fold who have been disenchanted by some of the foolishness that persists today.

 

[Quahom1]

Namaste Marsh,

I culled these two quotes out of your text as they seemed exceedingly appropriate to the crux of the thread topic.

ie... a. second statement: It is time for Christianity to return to this simple morality instead of all the pomp and circumstance surrouding the display of its religion.

b. second statement: We need to look at the bible critically and identify myth, hyperbole and allegory so folks aren't confused and think it all to be litteral historical fact.

These two things alone to me could bring a resurgence of new Christians and return folks back to the fold who have been disenchanted by some of the foolishness that persists today.

the purpose of the bible is not that of historical authenticity (though there is much history recorded within). The purpose of the bible is to teach us how to live right, compassionate, just, and loving lives. Where is the "myth" in that message?

I think the hyperbole is in the observations in your life time, of people professing to be "Christian", yet fell quite short of the mark. You're in good company...Mahatma Ghandi felt the same way...