No More Messiahs! Jesus PBUH will NOT be returning

[TheKhan]

..Allah can give any number of years of life to who'm He chooses br/sis, and especially with Messengers, Allah has backed them up with miraculous feats, thus such a feat happening to Jesus [pbuh] shuold come as no surprise to us;

I personally think, if you asked a buddhist priest, he`d probably agree 100%. You almost seem to be describing the buddhist universe, although I only understand it in logic, presently.

it is said that in the ancient times, people used to live for many hundreds of years; ..

These people might still exist, I saw once on TV where African people in some jungle live an average 140 years, according to them. To them a 60 year old was still a kid..


If that is what is being said about Jesus, a buddhist can explain it very easily I think.

TK

p.s. probably the returning Messian prophecy pre-dates buddhism that makes it more than a thousand years prior to Islam being established. It might have come from Zoroastrian or Hinduism thought. It was tradition in many cultures to integrate other religious concepts familiar to them to gain wide acceptance, as is evident everywhere.

 

[TheKhan]

Personally with regards to Muslim extremism, the people who are willing to die in the name of God, most likely believe in something like "World Peace".

Whether their management believes in that or not is another story.

TK

 

[c0de]

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Abdallah + Farhan + Dream






@ Abdallah + Farhan

Salam brothers. I will combine my reply to your posts
to avoid overlapping the issues.

If the verse was saying that all Messengers have allready died [and just not that they are mere human mortals] then it would have been contradictory brother/sis, but this is not what it is saying.

what it is essentially saying as allready explained is that these Messengers who lived on earth in the past were all mere, human mortals and not that each and every one has allready died.

But that is exactly what the verse is saying.
Let me repeat it: "...nor were they exempt from death."
They were not exempt from death THEREFORE they are dead.
Does it say that Jesus PBUH has not died? No
Does it say that he is still alive in heaven? No

All it says is that no prophet was granted exemption from death
You are assuming that there is an exception with regards to Jesus PBUH...
But you have provided no Quranic basis for that assumption.
If the Quran is silent on the issue, why do you refer to other sources?

(I know what your thinking, read on)

he has been exempt from death till the time he will eventually die,

all human beings and life forms has been exempt from death till the time they will die.

does thuosands of years of life make a person immortal or totally exempt from death?,

and also it is part of the ahlus Sunnah [Sunni] Aqeedah [essential beliefs of faith], thus it has to be based on overwhelming/decicive evidence which leaves no room for differences of opinions.

Tawheed, Prayer, Fasting, Zakat, Hajj... these are the
pillars of faith. And these are all mentioned in the Quran, so we can use
the Sunnah to further understand them. But the Quran says nothing about
the return of Christ, so how can it possibly be considered part of the
aqeedah?

Just saying that the majority believes it is such, is not an actual argument.
Personally, I think it is actually proof that such a belief is false...

does it not say in the Quran that the Prophet Noah [as] lived for 9 and a half hundred years?,

No, actually it doesn't.

See what I mean? Many people actually believe the
return of Jesus PBUH is also mentioned in the Quran...

His coming back isnt predicted in Quran, & hadith isnt equally authentic. But their are like dozens of related hadith with almost the same authenticity that have been fulfilled. Conquest of Persia, conquest of Istanbul (at that time it must have felt like saying Bhutan will conquer Beijing), formation of Israel, usury being the very fabric of economy, bedunions constructing sky-scrappers, black turbans from Afghanistan etc.

They say Nostradamus was right about a lot of stuff too....
Is that an argument for him being a prophet?

We are warned against taking other sources of belief outside
of the Quran for exactly this reason. Remember, Satan does not
always deceive you by lying, most of the time, he just tells you
a different version of the "truth".

But that is not "truth" at all, because the only truth, is God's word.
And God's word, is found in the Quran. So if you want to make an
argument for the return of Christ, you will have to prove the case
>>>through the Quran.<<<<<

The thing is that nobody denys/kills their prophet & remains alive, this is very obvious from every story in Quran. So his work here is still unfinished, and it has to be finished by somebody.

Jesus's PBUH only mission was to warn the Jews.
When they rejected him, they were indeed punished.
This is what the Second Destruction of the Temple by Titus
and the Romans was all about.

You must have heard about people of the cave? Their death was delayed for 309 years.

Is this proof that Jesus PBUH is alive in heaven? Nope.
And a case can be made that the particular ayah in which
the figure of 300 is given is not even referring to those youths.
That verse actually comes after the story of the youths is finished.

Most likely it is talking about early Christianity as a whole, and how it
survived underground for 300 years until the doctrine of the trinity was
introduced at the Council of Neceae.

I have stated my views on this here: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-end-times-the-quran-9941.html

but I've never once heard any of them say that martial Jihad should be fought as we have foreknowledge of an armegeddon thats going to take place, so I think you may be mistaken that that is the reason why extremists fight

As I say bro, I have looked into 'extremist rationale' a bit, but never once did I hear or read anywhere them giving the reasons for fighting as for there being foreknowledge of an armegeddon thats going to take place

I had very close contacts with the greatest militant group in
Pakistan the LeT (Lashker-e-Taiba) a long time ago... Believe me,
their greatest propoganda weapon is this doctrine of the return of
Christ. It is the only way they can convince their audience that
they will succeed in their efforts to establish global dominance.
All militant Muslim groups use this to incite their followers and assure
them of victory in a global jihad which they are sure is coming.
And for all practical purposes, it is coming... However, it is just a charade..
We can talk in detail about the purposes behind the game, but first we
must accept this whole thing for what it really is...









@ Dream

Hey Dream, welcome 2 the discussion.

I gather from the above posts that the Quran doesn't directly say Jesus is returning, although some 'Hadiths' suggest he is. You say he isn't. Lately I've posted about the meaning of 'The Son' which I think early Christians saw as a distribution of the Spirit upon themselves. I come by this interpretation through my own journey.

One of my favourite verses of the bible says:
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"
(Matthew 5:9). So it is clear from this that the concept of son is
metaphorical.

A corollary of 'The Son' with this understanding, is that the return of Jesus in Christian writings is metaphorical. If you don't mind: what would Islam say about the Son being a metaphor for the Spirit?

Well, as far as my understanding goes, The Holy Spirit
in Islam is considered to be the angel Gabriel, who is
responsible for communicating with Prophets and granting
them the revelation of God's word.

2.
Lots of people say trinitarianism was official around 300 along with christianity's Nicene Creed, but they also say it was debated long after that. My best guess right now, is that 'The Son' among certain Christians was originally about the distribution of the spirit. This, to me, was perhaps overlaid with Platonian trinitarian concepts, debated, and finally made into a shibboleth to repel thinkers. Thinking types might rise up against royal authorities, but those who 'just accept' are the types that support the prevailing administration. You might proverbially say that to keep the population cooperative, the royals kill anyone wearing glasses not speaking the shibboleth.

I also believe that this whole concept of the trinity is borrowed from
earlier traditions.

Perhaps the trinity's main function is as a valuable barrier against Muslim and other theists, since Christians have no simple way of explaining it. (Though I do not think trinity is the main difference between Christianity and Islam, it is the chopping block for most conversations between the two.) I know from experience as a Christian that we have no choice when put on the spot but to defend trinity, since it is official 'Doctrine'; yet we cannot really explain it. We must accept it as a mystery, yet we must show support for it with verses. This is inconsistent with a fundamental approach to the writings, and I believe a fundamental approach leads to my view of The Son. Conversations with Muslims are ended quickly, because trinity always comes up right away. Bingo, Christianity wins the conversation every time, with no fear of loss of government authority.

I have tried to discuss the issue with Christians... there was one
friend who I tried to convince about believe in the Oneness of God and let
go of the trinity completely.... but she just wouldn't do it...
I was so disappointed I never really tried to argue on this point again...

I believe that God guides people on their path... There are Christians
out there who do not accept the trinity at all... So I figure, let
God guide whoever he wills to whatever path He chooses for them...
No point in trying to argue about it... Just making the other side aware
of your side's perspective is all one can do, that is all what we are required
to do.

Your Koran started sometime around 600CE, so I'm borrowing it for a second as an old Historical document. It excludes trinity. If, as many Christians ministers and religious schools say, Islam were an imposter to a solidly trinitarian Christianity, than it would make no sense for the Koran's writers to denounce the trinity. It would lose them converts.

Exactly. In fact, according to the Quran, the teachinigs of the Quran
are no different then the teachings of all the prophets throughout history.
That is: Worship One God. Believe in Judgement Day. And Do Good.

Throughout history, all prophets (according to the Quran) were sent
with this message. They all had details regarding their specific time for
their specific tribes, but this message never changed. The Quran, is just
the latest update, but the difference is that it was not just sent to the
Jews, or any specific people, as Jesus PBUH we believe was sent to the
Jews specifically.

Trinity is the greatest conversational obstacle between the two religions and acts as an effective barrier (thus enabling in the past even a conscientious Christian crusader to kill righteous Muslims for example). Now let us say the Christian ministers are wrong, then the Quran as an instrument of God denounces trinity, then Christians must still explain where their trinity doctrine comes from. Either way, this seems consistent with a metaphorical return of 'The Son'.

That is true, it is the greatest obstacle between Islam and Christianity
is the trinity... and it is a big one...

 

[TheKhan]

..but first we must accept this whole thing for what it really is...

Since this is in line with the thread can I ask in detail how the concept of return of Christ can be turned into an Islamic propaganda in conjunction with global jihad to convince militants that they will succeed?

I kind of get a feeling, but don`t quite understand the logic.

It is the only way they can convince their audience that they will succeed in their efforts to establish global dominance.

How on earth can the return of Christ convince a Muslim on anything, let alone be the only way? As a simple question.

.. assure them of victory in a global jihad which they are sure is coming..

And how does the "return of Christ" assure people of victory in global jihad according to the militant logic?



TK

 

[TheKhan]

..the greatest militant group in Pakistan ... greatest propoganda weapon is this doctrine of the return of Christ. ..All militant Muslim groups use this to incite their followers and assure them of victory in a global jihad which they are sure is coming..

Does anyone happen to know the approximate area where this interpretation originated from?

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey?

TK

 

[c0de]

Hey TK,

The easiest way to conquer the globe is through
supernatural means... this is where the concept
of the return of Jesus PBUH comes in... These militants
believe that Jesus PBUH will unite the armies of these
lunatics and go off to defeat the "anti-christ" and thereby
take control of the world and form a one world government....
sound familiar???

As for where this interpretation originated from, I suspect
it was borrowed from Christianity. And they borrowed it from
God knows where....

 

[TheKhan]

Again since I don`t know the Quran, may I ask why Islam believes that Jesus will return at such a critical time. Did Muhammad specifically say so?

It is a great mystery to me, first that Muhammad states that he was the last prophet? Which implies to me that no other messenger will be sent after him.

And yet since this thread came up, I wonder why Muslims believe that Jesus a prophet is going to return.

Is this in the logic that Jesus was a messenger and not a prophet, and that is why Islam believes that Jesus will return? Because Muhammad said so?

And then finally I wonder why Muhammad would state that Jesus would return, and not Muhammad himself at the end times? If Muhammad was the last prophet then logically I would assume he would be the one to return if anyone is going to return.

Sorry for the elementary questions (but I feel this information necessary to properly assess in my own view on what is happening according to your argument),


TK

p.s. according to my research the practice of thinking about the returning messiah is an old one. It could have been all over the place in Roman empires in the form of Mithraism. It seems to root in Persian traditions. But besides identifying where the traditions might have come from, I`d like to start identifying why the militant logic you mention came to be.

Greco-Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Greco-Persian cosmological influences

A popular figure in Greco-Buddhist art, the future Buddha Maitreya, has sometimes been linked to the Iranian yazata (Zoroastrian divinity) Miθra who was also adopted as a figure in a Greco-Roman syncretistic cult under the name of Mithras. Maitreya is the fifth Buddha of the present world-age, who will appear at some undefined future epoch. According to Foltz, he "echoes the qualities of the Zoroastrian Saoshyant and the Christian Messiah".[29] However, in character and function, Maitreya does not much resemble either Mitra, Miθra or Mithras; his name is more obviously derived from the Sanskrit maitrī "kindliness", equivalent to Pali mettā; the Pali (and probably older) form of his name, Metteyya, does not closely resemble the name Miθra.

 

[farhan]

They say Nostradamus was right about a lot of stuff too....
Is that an argument for him being a prophet?

No it isnt an argument for him being a prophet, but an argument for the probability of the prophecy fulfilling itself.

We are warned against taking other sources of belief outside
of the Quran for exactly this reason. Remember, Satan does not
always deceive you by lying, most of the time, he just tells you
a different version of the "truth".

But that is not "truth" at all, because the only truth, is God's word.
And God's word, is found in the Quran. So if you want to make an
argument for the return of Christ, you will have to prove the case
>>>through the Quran.<<<<<

But then I am not making it a part of my belief. My belief is complete with or without Jesus' return.

Jesus's PBUH only mission was to warn the Jews.
When they rejected him, they were indeed punished.
This is what the Second Destruction of the Temple by Titus
and the Romans was all about.

Those who didnt follow Mosaic law didnt survive. Those from Noah's people who didnt accept him didnt survive either. Temple didnt deny Jesus, so its destruction isnt that important.

BTW according to Quran Noah did survive for 950 years.

We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin. (29:14)

Is this proof that Jesus PBUH is alive in heaven? Nope.

Nope. Its a proof that death can be delayed for centuries. As far as alive & dead or heaven & earth are concerned, defining them is a tricky business. How exaclty would you define life? Life at what level? in which realm? Wasent Muhammad alive in Miraj? Didnt Jesus bring back the dead? Defining life is very difficult.

And a case can be made that the particular ayah in which
the figure of 300 is given is not even referring to those youths.
That verse actually comes after the story of the youths is finished.

18:25 says that people say they stayed in the cave for 300 years, others say 309. The thing thats for sure is that they stayed there for generations, somewhere between being alive & dead.

 

[farhan]

Again since I don`t know the Quran, may I ask why Islam believes that Jesus will return at such a critical time. Did Muhammad specifically say so?

It is a great mystery to me, first that Muhammad states that he was the last prophet? Which implies to me that no other messenger will be sent after him.

And yet since this thread came up, I wonder why Muslims believe that Jesus a prophet is going to return.

Is this in the logic that Jesus was a messenger and not a prophet, and that is why Islam believes that Jesus will return? Because Muhammad said so?

And then finally I wonder why Muhammad would state that Jesus would return, and not Muhammad himself at the end times? If Muhammad was the last prophet then logically I would assume he would be the one to return if anyone is going to return.

Sorry for the elementary questions (but I feel this information necessary to properly assess in my own view on what is happening according to your argument),


TK

p.s. according to my research the practice of thinking about the returning messiah is an old one. It could have been all over the place in Roman empires in the form of Mithraism. It seems to root in Persian traditions. But besides identifying where the traditions might have come from, I`d like to start identifying why the militant logic you mention came to be.

Greco-Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As far as Muhammad saying it is concerned, we have got reports that arnt exactly of top-notch authenticity. So may be he did, may be he didnt.

Muhammad was the final prophet & messenger for Humanity. Jesus was the final prophet/messiah (Messiah only means anointed, nothing more) for Sons of Israel, whose career was abruptly ended by his own people.

The final law for humanity is still the one brought by Muhammad. If Jesus comes back, he will be finishing his unfinished business, while following the messege that Muhammad brought. There are still confusions about him being God incarnate (same substance as God), that nobody other than him can clear up. Muhammad's work is done, he left his people with a stable state, & right now there are a little less than 2 billion people following his message. So he wont be coming.

 

[c0de]

@ Farhan + Abdallah



By the way, I forgot to answer one point last time,
I will deal with that one fist:

The Quran says regarding the Ascension:

His mind did not imagine what he saw 53.11

There is clear proof in the Quran that the ascension of
the Prophet was a vision, he did not travel there physically:


Verse 60, Chapter 17:

Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about:
We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,-
as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and
warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!

BTW according to Quran Noah did survive for 950 years.

We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin. (29:14)

This is a metaphor for the law of Noah PBUH which survived for 950 years
and this is actually pretty clear as the verses which follow immediately
talk about Abraham PBUH who came next. Now we know that Abraham was
a descendant of Noah, but if Noah was alive for 950 years, that would make
Abraham PBUH like his son. And Abraham PBUH was clearly not Noah's PBUH
son. In fact, we know that by the time Abraham PBUH came on the scene
things have reverted back to the state at which Noah PBUH left, i.e.
idolatory had returned. So it is clear then that it is the laws of Noah PBUH
and his influence that is being talked about here.

This whole idea that man could live for hundreds of years in ancient times
is CLEARLY inaccurate. If it was true we would have archeological proof
don't you think? Think about how strong the bones would have to be to
survive that long... dude those humans would have been made out of steel!
You think frekkin superman's body would have decayed in some grave???

This is just another example of how the Quran has been misinterpreted
and many strange legends and stories that are in the hadith are based on
these interpretations.

No it isnt an argument for him being a prophet, but an argument for the probability of the prophecy fulfilling itself.

How many times in the Quran does God warn us about taking
other sources for religious guidance, other then the Quran?
How many times does the Quran say that it has provided
details for EVERYTHING?

It is one thing to seek details of things mentioned in the Quran
by using outside sources to expand your knowledge, but to believe
in a concept that is totally outside of the Quran and give it such
importance is evidence of satan's handiwork right there.

Those who didnt follow Mosaic law didnt survive. Those from Noah's people who didnt accept him didnt survive either. Temple didnt deny Jesus, so its destruction isnt that important.

Actually the temple is exactly what denied Jesus. It was the
Jewish elders (the established order of Judaism i.e. the Temple) which
rejected Jesus PBUH and got the Romans to execute him because he was
a threat to their power.

Nope. Its a proof that death can be delayed for centuries.

Where does it say that those youth (specifically) were alive for 300 years?
It says that they were in the "cave" for 300 years. It doesn't even say that
it were those youths specifically that are being talked about here. As their
story has already ended in the previous verses. For all we know this specific
verse isn't even talking about those youths specifically, but about a group
of people (generations of early Christians) who stayed in the underground
(out of mainstream society) for 300 years to avoid persecution.

Didnt Jesus bring back the dead?

How many times in the Quran are the words like
"dead" "alive" "blind" "deaf" used metaphorically to
describe the spiritual states of man? Think about that.

If Jesus comes back, he will be finishing his unfinished business,

There is NO UNFINISHED BUSINESS bro
Muhammad PBUH was the >Seal of the Prophets<
The Quran is the Final Revelation to Mankind.

That's All Folks.

The only thing that is coming now, is the End.
The only business to be settled, is the Final Judgment.
The only reason why these leaders say otherwise is to
further their utilitarian political motives which are based
on the idea of molding and shaping the world to fit their
psychotic visions.

But then I am not making it a part of my belief. My belief is complete with or without Jesus' return.

You can be sure that many people do consider it part of their belief.
It was even stated here that it is part of the aqeedah of sunnis!!!
(for the record, all sects are definitely screwed up)

 

[Abdullah]

.@ Abdallah + Farhan

Salam brothers. I will combine my reply to your posts
to avoid overlapping the issues.


But that is exactly what the verse is saying.
Let me repeat it: "...nor were they exempt from death."
They were not exempt from death THEREFORE they are dead.
Does it say that Jesus PBUH has not died? No
Does it say that he is still alive in heaven? No.

Salaam br

translations of the Quran can be a bit flexible as to which words the translator chooses to use br/sis, thus I think what your doing here is taking one specific translation too litterally and too subjectively in order to fit in your view, and on top of that br, I think I heard that Abdullah Yusuf Ali was of the view that Jesus [pbuh] had died, thus he...obviously chose the words most appropriate for his view there, yet even from his translation it cannot be ruled out that what this verse means is that Allah is talking about the immortality type of 'exempt from death' rather then that every single Messenger had allready died.

This is the reason why I posted the other two translations br to show you that, if we leave out choice of words which inclines towards our favoured interpretation, it can be seen that what is being talked about in that verse is about immortality...

Mufti Taki Usmani is a contemporary Scholar, thus his translation of the Quran is pretty acurate as to the choice of wrods he uses in his translation; here it is:

21:8We did not make them such bodies as ate no food, nor were they immortal.

The True Call - ISLAM - Quran Browser Chapter 21

So apart from Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation, it can be seen that all others make it clear that immortality is being talked about here [that the messengers were mere mortals who have allready or will eventually die, if any havn't yet, and not that each and every one had allready died.

now the question is br, is Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation acurate as to the exact words the Quranic verse uses in it's original Arabic?; I doubt it, but I think the key evidence in all of this is that, despite the words used in the translations, the clear words to portray that each and every past Messenger had allready died is missing in that verse [this can be seen even from Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation as the words 'exempt from death' can be equivelent to 'immortality' too], so we cannot say that that is decicive evidence that indeed Jesus [pbuh] had allready died, thus when we put this verse into context with the other evidence regarding wether Jesus [pbuh] has allready died or not, we know that he hasn't

Now apart from the translation evidence br, we also have the Quran exegesis, where the Muffasireens delve into the root meanings of the words Allah used in the Quran, and put it together with all other relevent evidences and come out with a rigorous exegesis and here is the popular exegesis of Imam as-Suyuti and his teacher, and of Ibn Kathir:

And We did not make them, namely, the messengers, bodies that did not eat food, nay, they eat it; and they were not immortal, ...

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Here Allah refutes those who denied that human Messengers could be sent:

(And We sent not before you but men to whom We revealed.) meaning, all the Messengers who came before you were men, human beings. There were no angels among them. This is like the Ayat:

(And We sent not before you any but men unto whom We revealed, from among the people of townships) [12:109]

(Say: "I am not a new thing among the Messengers...) [46:9] Allah tells us that the previous nations denied that and said:

("Shall mere men guide us'') [64:6]. So Allah says here:

(So ask the people of the Reminder if you do not know.) meaning, ask the people of knowledge among the nations such as the Jews and Christians and other groups: `were the Messengers who came to you human beings or angels' Indeed they were human beings. This is a part of the perfect blessing of Allah towards His creation: He sent to them Messengers from among themselves so that they could receive the Message from them and learn from them.

(And We did not place them in bodies that did not eat food...) meaning, rather they had bodies that ate food, as Allah says:

(And We never sent before you any of the Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked in the markets) [25:20] meaning, they were human beings who ate and drank like all other people, and they went to the marketplaces to earn a living and engage in business; that did not affect them adversely or reduce their status in any way, as the idolators imagined.

(And they say: "Why does this Messenger eat food, and walk about in the markets. Why is not an angel sent down to him to be a warner with him Or (why) has not a treasure been granted to him, or why has he not a garden whereof he may eat'') [25:7-8]

(nor were they immortals) meaning, in this world; on the contrary, they lived, then they died.

(And We granted not to any human being immortality before you) [21:34]

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Form Tafsir ibn kathir, it can be seen that the essential Message given in those verse is to refute those who say human Messengers cannot be sent from God, thus the mention of them eating food and not being immortal is to clarify that they were humans and nothing else, so the message that this verse portrays is not that each and every Messenger of God that preceded Jesus [pbuh] had allready died, but that they were mere human mortals [who have allready died or will die if any havn't yet]

.But you have provided no Quranic basis for that assumption.
If the Quran is silent on the issue, why do you refer to other sources?

The Quran is not silent br, for their are verses that allude to the return of jesus [pbuh] and one verse clearly says that Jesus [pbuh] was not killed; also there is a verse in the Quran that a person...shall die only once [i.e, the death that happens in this world] and we have it in the 'hadiths' that Jesus [pbuh] will die on earth in his second coming [if hadiths are verfied to an acceptable level and they do not contradict the Quran, then they are accepted and such hadiths can expound on the Quran], and as explained in an earlier discussion br, hadiths that convey the message of the second comning of Jesus [pbuh] are mutawatir/tawatur [mass transmitted, thus being the same level of authenticity of the Quran; the mass-transmission excludes any possibilty of such hadiths being a lie, just as it does with the Quranic verses], thus having the same status of the Quran in their legal and creddal considerations [for there can be no doubt that the Prophet [saw] indeed did convey that message, and whatever the Prophet [saw] said in relation to the Deen, is ultimately from Allah]

.(I know what your thinking, read on)


Tawheed, Prayer, Fasting, Zakat, Hajj... these are the
pillars of faith. And these are all mentioned in the Quran, so we can use
the Sunnah to further understand them. But the Quran says nothing about
the return of Christ, so how can it possibly be considered part of the
aqeedah?

Aqeedah is founded upon the Quran and mutawatir hadiths too br; it is part of the Sunni Aqeedah to believe in all mutawatir hadiths; in Imam at Tahawi's Aqeedah [which the entire ummah concurs on] it says in point number 76.

We agree with wiping over leather socks (in ablution) whether on a journey or otherwise, just as has come in the hadiths

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, in his translation and annotation of Imam Tahawi's Aqeedah, said that allthuogh this point is usually one of jurisprudence, yet it has been put into the Aeedah to show a verry important point of the Aqeedah whcih is to accept the mutawatir hadiths, and this particular point is based on a mutawatir hadith; he then said about how mutawatir hadiths are equall to the Quran in their legal and creedal considerations, thereby making it a type of kufr to reject them; he then went on to quote a great Sunni Imam of the past who said that he fears a state of desblief for one who rejects wiping over the foot covering]; now we know how moderate and intelligent and circumspect shaykh hamza Yus uf is dont we bro?; thus he is a least likely person to warn of kufr over any matter if he weren't absolutely sure of it and didn't reseach it thorouglhy...

.No, actually it doesn't.

See what I mean? Many people actually believe the
return of Jesus PBUH is also mentioned in the Quran...

029.014
YUSUFALI: We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin.
PICKTHAL: And verily we sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years; and the flood engulfed them, for they were wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust.

And verily We sent Noah to his people, when he was forty years of age or older, and he remained among them a thousand-less-fifty years, calling them to affirm God’s Oneness, but they denied him; so the Flood engulfed them, a deluge of water drifted against them, rising above them and drowning them, for they were wrongdoers, idolaters.


Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Actually br, he could have lived on earth for much longer than 9 hundred and fifty years, for the tafsir and the translations seem to indicate that he was among his people [that eventually drowned] for that period...

.They say Nostradamus was right about a lot of stuff too....
Is that an argument for him being a prophet?

We are warned against taking other sources of belief outside
of the Quran for exactly this reason.

But the Quran makes it verry clear indeed br that we have to follow/obey the Sunnah too , so accepting Sunnah is following/obeying the Quran

 

[Abdullah]

.


I had very close contacts with the greatest militant group in
Pakistan the LeT (Lashker-e-Taiba) a long time ago... Believe me,
their greatest propoganda weapon is this doctrine of the return of
Christ.

There are a few points to be taken into consideration here br, one is that Muslims may use whatever Islamic sources for strengthening of faith, hope, etc in any genuine Jihad situation, and as for extremists using Islamic sources to commit attrocities, the answer is not to abrogate Islam, but to carry out Dawah

Saalam

 

[c0de]

Salam brother Abdullah

so we cannot say that that is decicive evidence that indeed Jesus [pbuh] had allready died,

Actually it does:

You tried in your last post to show that the past tense only signifies
that it is referring to those who were present on earth. Correct?
So the ONLY WAY for you to prove your case is if you somehow prove
that Jesus PBUH is alive, and is NOT on this earth. And since you have
failed to prove that the Prophet went to heaven physically, you have
also failed to prove that Jesus PBUH can be alive in heaven physically,
as this would contradict the part of the verse which states that all
messengers had ordinary mortal bodies (not heavenly bodies that can
live in heaven for 2000 years).

now the question is br, is Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation acurate as to the exact words the Quranic verse uses in it's original Arabic?;

Actually the real question is if you can use this verse to support
your argument at all... and the answer is >no< Because first you
have to prove (through the Quran) that Jesus PBUH is still alive.
The hadith can only be used in support of the Quran. Not the other
way around. Right now, you are giving the hadith priority over the Quran.

thus I think what your doing here is taking one specific translation too litterally and too subjectively in order to fit in your view,

I should be the one to raise this objection against you.
All I have done is ask you to provide me one verse in the Quran
which says that Jesus PBUH is alive. And because you can not
complete this most basic requirement, you are resorting to semantics
to support your argument.

The Quran is not silent br, for their are verses that allude to the return of jesus [pbuh] and one verse clearly says that Jesus [pbuh] was not killed;

Again, you are using semantics. That verse just says that Jesus PBUH
was not killed by the people who were trying to kill him. It does NOT say
that he never died and is still alive.

, hadiths that convey the message of the second comning of Jesus [pbuh] are mutawatir/tawatur [mass transmitted, thus being the same level of authenticity of the Quran; the mass-transmission excludes any possibilty of such hadiths being a lie, just as it does with the Quranic verses],

No brother. Nothing is of the same level of authenticity as the Quran.
The Quran is the uncreated word of God! Nothing can be its equal.
And the Quran is protected by Allah Himself. Last time you tried to say
that the hadith is also protected because it carries the Sunnah
of the Prophet. Well, the Sunnah and the Hadith are not the same.

The Sunnah of the Prophet is used to SUPPLIMENT the Quran, to
show us how to follow the commands in >the Quran<
What you are saying has no basis in the Quran, therefore CAN NOT
be considered Sunnah. It is hadith, which is fallible and can be
manipulated by satan.

NOTE:
To argue the case from the point of view of specific sects, and their
aqeedahs, or specific scholars does not prove your point, it just
proves that they agree with your point of view. It doesnt make it true.

Actually br, he could have lived on earth for much longer than 9 hundred and fifty years, for the tafsir and the translations seem to indicate that he was among his people [that eventually drowned] for that period...

Even if that verse is not metaphorical and Noah PBUH was actually
alive for 9 centuries, that still does not help your argument. Because
Noah PBUH lived and died here, on earth. He did not go up to Heaven
physically and live there did he? You are trying to argue the case that
Jesus PBUH is alive in >heaven<

the answer is not to abrogate Islam, but to carry out Dawah

You think I am abrogating Islam if I question the belief of Jesus PBUH returning?
When all I asked you to do was to give priority to the Quran???

 

[Abdullah]

@ Farhan + Abdallah



By the way, I forgot to answer one point last time,
I will deal with that one fist:

There is clear proof in the Quran that the ascension of
the Prophet was a vision, he did not travel there physically:


Verse 60, Chapter 17:

Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about:
We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,-
as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and
warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!)

The vision or the sight which Allah showed the Prophet [saw] was DURING the night journey br, thus he saw the vision of whatever he saw during when he was taken on the Night Journey; vision or sight does not neccessarily mean a vision of a distant place or thing while being eslewhere does it; I can stare at my computer and see the sight/vision of it.

Also, the Prophet [saw] could have been shown 'visions' [here meaning visions of things one is not litterally looking at, such as a vision of france while in london] while in person on his night journey too, for he returned and said things like he saw that there were more women in the fire then men...; maybe those were the 'visions' he saw while on the journey, while litterally not having 'peeped' into hell itself, for I would imagine if one got too close to hell to count the numbers of people in it..., then they may get burned! ; but ofcourse Allah could achieve whatever he wills and protect anyone He wills with miracles; Allah knows best.

Here is how the tafsir Aljalalyn interprets it:

And We did not appoint the vision that We showed you, before your very eyes, during the Night Journey, except as a test for people, [for] the people of Mecca — since they denied it and some of them [even] apostatised when he [the Prophet] informed them of it —

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

And Tafsir ibn kathir:

And We made not the vision which We showed you but a trial for mankind,) "This is the vision which the Messenger of Allah saw with his own eyes on the night when he was taken on the Night Journey (Al-Isra').

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

@ This whole idea that man could live for hundreds of years in ancient times
is CLEARLY inaccurate.)

There is also evidence from the Sunnah that Adam [as] lived for 1000 years:

how long did Adam [as] live?; It is narrated by Ibn Abbas and Abu Hurairah from the Prophet [saw], that Adam's [as] age was written in the preserved tablets as 1000 years [ ref: stories of the Prophets by Ibn Kathir]

The Torah has simmilar ages of people living for hundreds of years in the ancient time too.

 

[c0de]

The vision or the sight which Allah showed the Prophet [saw] was DURING the night journey br, thus he saw the vision of whatever he saw during when he was taken on the Night Journey; vision or sight does not neccessarily mean a vision of a distant place or thing while being eslewhere does it; I can stare at my computer and see the sight/vision of it.

Also, the Prophet [saw] could have been shown 'visions' [here meaning visions of things one is not litterally looking at, such as a vision of france while in london] while in person on his night journey too, for he returned and said things like he saw that there were more women in the fire then men...; maybe those were the 'visions' he saw while on the journey, while litterally not having 'peeped' into hell itself, for I would imagine if one got too close to hell to count the numbers of people in it..., then they may get burned! ; but ofcourse Allah could achieve whatever he wills and protect anyone He wills with miracles; Allah knows best.

No I am sorry but your tafsir does NOT help you.
The words that God Himself uses to describe
our Prophet's experience in the ascension were: VISION.

Plain and Simple. So he did not travel there physically.

Also, I replied to your previous post above, you might have missed it
as you were posting this one...

 

[Abdullah]

Just incase people missed it in the thread End Time Signs: The Holy Qur'an of the explanation of mutawatir and the proofs for Jesus' return being based on such hadiths; here it is again:

1) Mutawâtir: It is a hadîth narrated in each era, from the days of the Holy Prophet (

) up to this day by such a large number of narrators that it is impossible to reasonably accept that all of them have colluded to tell a lie.

This kind is further classified into two sub-divisions:

(a) Mutawâtir in words: It is a hadîth whose words are narrated by such a large number as is required for a mutawâtir, in a manner that all the narrators are unanimous in reporting it with the same words without any substantial discrepancy.

(b) Mutawâtir in meaning: It is a mutawâtir hadîth which is not reported by the narrators in the same words. The words of the narrators are different. Sometimes even the reported events are not the same. But all the narrators are unanimous in reporting a basic concept which is common in all the reports. This common concept is also ranked as a mutawâtir concept

As for the mutawâtir, nobody can question its authenticity. The fact narrated by a mutawâtir chain is always accepted as an absolute truth even if pertaining to our daily life. Any statement based on a mutawâtir narration must be accepted by everyone without any hesitation. I have never seen the city of Moscow, but the fact that Moscow is a large city and is the capital of U.S.S.R. is an absolute truth which cannot be denied. This fact is proved, to me, by a large number of narrators who have seen the city. This is a continuously narrated, or a mutawâtir, fact which cannot be denied or questioned.

I have not seen the events of the First and the Second World War. But the fact that these two wars occurred stands proved without a shadow of doubt on the basis of the mutawâtir reports about them. Nobody with a sound sense can claim that all those who reported the occurrence of these two wars have colluded to coin a fallacious report and that no war took place at all. This strong belief in the factum of war is based on the mutawâtir reports of the event.

In the same way the mutawâtir reports about the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (

) are to be held as absolutely true without any iota of doubt in their authenticity. The authenticity of the Holy Qur’ân being the same Book as that revealed to the Holy Prophet (

) is of the same nature. Thus, the mutawâtir ahâdîth, whether they be mutawâtir in words or in meaning, are as authentic as the Holy Qur’ân, and there is no difference between the two in as far as the reliability of their source of narration is concerned.

The Authority of Sunnah - Chapter 3


The hadiths relating Jesus' second coming are reliable [tawatur]. Research shows that scholars share this view.

Sayyid Sharif al-Jurjani, an Islamic scholar, explains the concept of tawatur hadith as follows:
News of mutawatir, are the news upon which so many transmitters agree; to such an extent that, according to the tradition, it is unlikely for so many transmitters to reach to a consensus on a lie. ...

In his Al-Tasrih fi ma Tawatara fi Nuzul al-Masih, the great hadith scholar Muhammad Anwar Shah Kashmiri writes that the hadiths about Jesus' second coming are all reliable [tawatur], and quotes 75 hadiths and 25 works by companions of the Prophet and their disciples (tabi'un).


Imam Kawthari also stated his views regarding Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) coming as follows:

The tawatur in the hadiths regarding Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) second coming is mutawatir-i manawi. Aside from the fact that each one of the sahih and hasan hadiths may indicate different meanings, they all agree upon Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) second coming. This is actually a fact which is impossible to deny for a person who is well acquainted with the knowledge of hadith... The hadiths related to the appearance of Mahdi and Dajjal and Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) second coming are tawatur; it is certainly not an issue that is considered doubtful by experts on the hadith literature. The reason why some who deal with Ilm al-Kalam (science of theology) agree that it is essential to have faith in the hadiths related to the signs of Doomsday yet have doubts about whether some of these hadiths are mutawatir or not, is their inadequate knowledge about hadiths.6


The great Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir states his views after commenting on the related verses and explaining the related hadiths:

These are narrated from the Messenger of God (saas) as mutawatir and in these hadiths, there are explanations regarding how and where Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will appear...The authentic and mutawatir hadiths about Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) return to Earth in his noble body is immune to any opposing interpretations. Consequently, everyone with the smallest speck of faith and fairness has to believe in Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) second coming; only those who oppose to God's Book, His Messenger and Ahl al-Sunnah may deny Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) second coming to Earth.7


Another explanation about the hadiths' reaching the level of tawatur is as folows:

Muhammad al-Shawkani said that he had collected 29 hadiths and, when he had recorded them all, he said: "Our hadiths have reached the level of tawatur (reliable), as you can see. With this, we reach the conclusion that the hadiths on the anticipated Mahdi, the Dajjal, and Jesus' second coming are mutawatir (genuine)."8

In almost all works that dwell on the essence of faith of the followers of Sunnah, there is reference to Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) coming to Earth before the Last Day, his struggle against Dajjal and his killing him, and the pervasion of the morality of true religion over the Earth. Assessing the evidence from the Qur'an and the news provided by hadiths altogether, Islamic scholars have adopted faith in Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) return as an important tenet of faith.

The fact that the hadiths pertaining to Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) second coming are mutawatir, that is, so clear as to be immune to any doubts, is a great evidence for Muslims.

...
As a result of all this information, Islamic scholars have considered faith in Prophet Jesus' (pbuh) return to Earth and the pervasion of the morality of the true religion as an important essence of faith.

Jesus Will Return - by Harun Yahya

And Shaykh Jibril Haddad alludes to the sheer gravity of rejecting mutawatir hadiths when he says:

A Muslim of pure belief believes that Isa ibn Maryam, upon our Prophet and upon both of them peace, will certainly return. The proofs for this are mutawatir - mass-transmitted - and to reject them is the mark of misguidance and worse.

Various Questions (2) Answered by Shaykh Gibril Haddad

[you can also read what Shaykh Hamza Yusuf had to say about the rejection of mutawatir hadiths in my above post [# 31]

And here is further evidence of the importance of accepting mutawatir hadiths [that relate certainty of knowledge]:

... Rejecting this sahih hadith would not be kufr because, as we just said, it is not mass-transmitted; but it would constitute a sin.

Ahl al-Sunna concur, unlike the Mu'tazila, that authentic lone-narrator reports are obligatory to believe and put into practice. Al-Qari relates, on this point, the consensus of the Companions and the Successors. Where scholars differ is whether the same hadiths convey certainty of knowledge (al-'ilm al-yaqînî) or only the compelling assumption of truth (al-zann al-ghâlib). These two categories differ insofar as obligatory practice and belief based on certainty of knowledge cannot be denied except on pains of apostasy, while the denial of obligatory practice and belief based on reports compellingly assumed to be true do not constitute apostasy but constitute sin. The scholars do concur that if one disbelieves in a sound lone-narrator report one commits a grave transgression (fisq) and is even considered misguided (dâll), but does not leave the fold of Islam. Al-Shafi'i, al-Risala (p. 460-461): "If one disbelieves in them [lone-narrated reports], we do not say to him: 'Repent!'" This is clearly unlike disbelief in a mass-transmitted report or in a verse of the Qur'an.

Hadith: The Black Dog is a Devil

Salam

 

[Abdullah]

Salam brother Abdullah

Alikum salaam br,

You think I am abrogating Islam if I question the belief of Jesus PBUH returning?
When all I asked you to do was to give priority to the Quran???

No brother, but if we say lets get rid of parts of the Sunnah [I understand that in your case you dont regard it to be that, but this is contrary to the view of the entire Ummah], as some extremists may or do misuse them, then that will be abrogating parts of Islam, and in the case of this issue, as has been shown it will basically be throwing away an essential of faith and could well be throwing away faith alltoghter , thus the way to make anyone misusing any Islamic source is by way of dawah br inshAllah.


inshAllah I will answer the rest later bro.

Salam

 

[c0de]

Salam brother Abdallah

No brother, but if we say lets get rid of parts of the Sunnah [I understand that in your case you dont regard it to be that, but this is contrary to the view of the entire Ummah],

Imam Hanbali recognized a difference between the Sunnah of
the Prophet, and the Hadith. And that is the point. You can not
just force people to accept the hadith, as part of their faith/belief.
Because all hadith are not part of Sunnah.

The fact is brother that the return of Jesus PBUH is not mentioned
in the Quran, therefore it is not an article of faith.

But this is all besides the point. The point is that you have not
provided me with a single verse to support your point. How can
you possibly carry an argument on something Islamic without
having a foundation for your point in the Quran?

It will not matter how many scholarly opinions you present
if they do not overcome this basic reasoning.

 

[Abdullah]

Salam brother Abdallah




Imam Hanbali recognized a difference between the Sunnah of
the Prophet, and the Hadith. And that is the point.

The definition of Sunnah is as follows br:

The Sunnah has been defined by the scholars of the science of Hadîth as follows:

“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (

).”

“Confirmation” in this definition is termed in Arabic as Taqreer. What is meant by this term is like somebody said something, or acted in a particular manner, and his saying or act came to the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (

) and he either confirmed it in express words or remained silent without given any indication of disapproval. Such silence, being an implied approval of the Holy Prophet (

) is also included in the term Sunnah.

The Authority of Sunnah - Chapter 1


the hadiths are documented records of the Sunnah br; ofcourse there are hadiths of the 'weak' authenticity catogory, and then there are some that are totally fabricated, but the well authenticated [Hasan], rigorously authenticated [sahih] and mutawatir [infallibe] one's are records of the authentic Sunnah; 'weak' catogory one's are not neccessarily untrue and a few weak one's that corraborate each other may reach a more reliable catogary; 'weak' one's may be used to boost one's faith, but not in the matter of legislation I think...

 

[c0de]

You are NOT answering the main question to you and
are now avoiding it altogether. Where is your foundation
for the belief in the return of Jesus PBUH? If it is based in the
Quran, then show me where it says in the Quran that
he will return. Otherwise, it is based in the hadith.

It does not matter how strong the chain of narration for those
hadiths is, if the belief has no foundation in the Quran. It can
not be considered an article of faith.

So according to the Quran:

• Jesus PBUH is not returning.
• No one can live in heaven.
• And the ascension was a vision