Unreliable Ahadith Regarding The Return of Jesus PBUH





Salaam brother


Salaam br

I have found a relevent bit of evidence for you, which allthough does not adress the second coming hadiths particularly, but yet adresses a simmilar issue by which the same conclusions can be drawn for this issue:

On the Mahdi & Imam Malik

Salam

Brother, why do you keep introducing more material which weakens
your argument rather then strengthens it? And you keep misusing
this word "evidence".

All the "evidence" you have provided has failed to answer the objections
that are present in the very first post of this thread. So unless they
deal with those objections, why bother posting unhelpful responses?

The fact is that the aqeedah of Muslim sects about the return of Jesus
PBUH and the "mehdi" lacks any foundation in the Quran or the authentic
hadith. If you want to provide "evidence", then you have to provide me
with a verse from the Quran which speaks about the return of Jesus PBUH,
or the coming of the mehdi. If you can not do this, then you have no
foundation in the Quran. But you can't even provide me with any reliable
hadith to support your claim.

I suggest that you leave your sect and its aqeedah brother, reject it.
All you need to be is a "Muslim", not a sunni, shia, ahmedi or whatever.
 
Salaam brother



Brother, why do you keep introducing more material which weakens
your argument rather then strengthens it? And you keep misusing
this word "evidence".

All the "evidence" you have provided has failed to answer the objections
that are present in the very first post of this thread. So unless they
deal with those objections, why bother posting unhelpful responses?

The fact is that the aqeedah of Muslim sects about the return of Jesus
PBUH and the "mehdi" lacks any foundation in the Quran or the authentic
hadith. If you want to provide "evidence", then you have to provide me
with a verse from the Quran which speaks about the return of Jesus PBUH,
or the coming of the mehdi. If you can not do this, then you have no
foundation in the Quran. But you can't even provide me with any reliable
hadith to support your claim.

I suggest that you leave your sect and its aqeedah brother, reject it.
All you need to be is a "Muslim", not a sunni, shia, ahmedi or whatever.

Alikum salam wr wb brother :)

Br, if you dont mind me saying so, I knew that you'd most probably wouldn't accept any of my evidence, as I know you got your mind 'fixed' over it bro :); all that evidence was for the benifit of our viewers viewing in inshAllah :); and who knows, someday Allah may even have guidance in store for you inshAllah I pray

And regarding adhering to or leaving ahlus Sunnah bro, I'll remind you the last point of the Aqeedah:

  1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is our religion and it is what we believe in, both inwardly and outwardly, and we renounce any connection, before Allah, with anyone who goes against what we have said and made clear. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We ask Allah to make us firm in our belief and seal our lives with it and to protect us from variant ideas, scattering opinions and evil schools of view such as those of the Mushabbihah, the Mu'tazilah, the Jahmiyyah the Jabriyah, the Qadriyah and others like them who go against the Sunnah and Jama'ah and have allied themselves with error. We renounce any connection with them and in our opinion they are in error and on the path of destruction. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We ask Allah to protect us from all falsehood and we ask His Grace and Favour to do all good.[/FONT]
Aqidah Tahawiyya

May Allah guide and save us all

Ameen

You remain my bro :)

Salaam :)
 



Salam brother


Alikum salam wr wb brother

Br, if you dont mind me saying so, I knew that you'd most probably wouldn't accept any of my evidence, as I know you got your mind 'fixed' over it bro ; all that evidence was for the benifit of our viewers viewing in inshAllah ; and who knows, someday Allah may even have guidance in store for you inshAllah I pray


This is no way to have a discussion brother. First you post false claims
by so called "scholars". Once exposed, you then ask me to wait for you
to provide proper references... A week goes by and you come back with
this? And on top of that you accuse me of being misguided? What do you
expect me to say to that? ...

And please, stop referring to the links you have posted as "evidence".
They offer no verses of the Quran, nor do they state any reliable
ahadith. How could you even consider these opinions as "evidence"
in an Islamic debate?


And regarding adhering to or leaving ahlus Sunnah bro, I'll remind you the last point of the Aqeedah:

  1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is our religion and it is what we believe in, both inwardly and outwardly, and we renounce any connection, before Allah, with anyone who goes against what we have said and made clear. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We ask Allah to make us firm in our belief and seal our lives with it and to protect us from variant ideas, scattering opinions and evil schools of view such as those of the Mushabbihah, the Mu'tazilah, the Jahmiyyah the Jabriyah, the Qadriyah and others like them who go against the Sunnah and Jama'ah and have allied themselves with error. We renounce any connection with them and in our opinion they are in error and on the path of destruction. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We ask Allah to protect us from all falsehood and we ask His Grace and Favour to do all good.[/FONT]
Aqidah Tahawiyya
.... I can't believe you actually stated this openly.
It is a wonder how you are proud to be part of a sect whose
aqeedah tells it to cut off ties with Muslims who question its
beliefs... Even when its beliefs have proven to lack any
foundation in the Quran and hadith.

In reponse... I will quote this verse from the Quran:

As for those who divide their religion and break up Into sects,thou hast no
part in them in the least: Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end Tell
them the truth Of all that they did.


Al-Qur'an 6:159


You remain my bro

Salaam
And you remain mine... It's a good thing you have
gone against your own aqeedah to state this...

I'll see you around.
 
I found something interesting today whilst reading the Quran ... Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation with commentary.

In commentary point 2337 he is talking about the Christian story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus and when the pagans tried to trick the Prophet with this story .. in it he says:

"A popular story circulating from mouth to mouth would necessarily be vague as to dates and very very much in details"

I find it strange that Muslims can so easily accept this about Christian stories but hold rigidly to the idea that Muslim stories could pass down for generations and still be totally reliable.
 
I found something interesting today whilst reading the Quran ... Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation with commentary.

In commentary point 2337 he is talking about the Christian story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus and when the pagans tried to trick the Prophet with this story .. in it he says:

"A popular story circulating from mouth to mouth would necessarily be vague as to dates and very very much in details"

I find it strange that Muslims can so easily accept this about Christian stories but hold rigidly to the idea that Muslim stories could pass down for generations and still be totally reliable.

'Christianity' has been distorted and the real believers of Isa [as] died out; only the mushrikeen remained...; the mushrikeen are faasikun and zalimoun and kaafiroun [and munafiqoun, or with munafiqoun attributes too?], as if mushrikun weren't unreliable enough!; they believe and follow nothing but conjecture [as Allah says in the Quran] thus they were not preserving, knowing for a certainty, the Injeel or hadiths of isa [as] with the proper God fearing disposition, imperative urgency, hyper care and utmost cautiousness which the Sahaba [ra] did with the Sunnah; nor did they develop a highly precise and rigorous science that can be verified;

there is Allah's promise too to protect the Quran [and that will neccessitate it's true meaning [the Sunnah] being protected as well], thus there was divine help behind the Sahaba's and the hadith Scholars efforts to preserve the Sunnah; I know some muslims dont share this view, but this is the view of the mainstream and I have provided evidence for it in previous posts

Peace
 
Salam Brother + Sister


I find it strange that Muslims can so easily accept this about Christian stories but hold rigidly to the idea that Muslim stories could pass down for generations and still be totally reliable.

Yep, that is exactly what the hadith narrations are: "stories". Passed
down from generation to generation. They are not the direct word of
God (i.e. the Quran).


there is Allah's promise too to protect the Quran [and that will neccessitate it's true meaning [the Sunnah] being protected as well], thus there was divine help behind the Sahaba's and the hadith Scholars efforts to preserve the Sunnah; I know some muslims dont share this view, but this is the view of the mainstream and I have provided evidence for it in previous posts


Again, you have misused this word "evidence". You have not provided
evidence brother, you just provided opinions of so called scholars,
one of whom is a convicted criminal.

Secondly, the Quran is guarded by God, the hadith compilations are not.
If they were, then they clearly would not contain unreliable hadiths like
the ones contained in Bukhari, for which this real scholar has provided
actual evidence.

Now, you still have a lot of work to do on this thread. I will ask you to
please go ahead and provide your references and actual evidence, which
you said you would before you turned back, if you want to start this
discussion again. But posting already nullified points over and over again,
well, that is just not healthy. :)
 
Salaam All :)

Here is an explanation that shows how the 'chinese whispers' effect did not effect the preservation of the meaning of the Quran:

Memories of the ahâdîth reporters cannot be compared with the memory of a layman today who witnesses an event or hears some news and conveys it to others in a careless manner seldom paying attention to the correctness of his narration. The following points in this respect are worth mentioning:

1. The reporters of ahâdîth were fully cognizant of the great importance and the delicate nature of what they intended to report. They whole-heartedly believed that any misstatement or negligent reporting in this field would cause them to be condemned both in this world and in the Hereafter. This belief equipped them with a very strong sense of responsibility. It is evident that such a strong sense of responsibility makes a reporter more accurate in his reports.

A newsman reporting an accident of a common nature in which common people are involved, can report its details with less accuracy. But if the accident involves the President or the Prime Minister of his country, he will certainly show more diligence, precaution and shall employ his best ability to report the incident as accurately as possible. The reporter is the same, but in the second case he is more accurate in his report than he was in the first case, because the nature of the incident has made him more responsible, hence more cautious.

It cannot be denied that the companions of the Holy Prophet (
image002.gif
), their pupils, and other reliable narrators of ahâdîth believed with their heart and soul that the importance of a hadîth attributed to the Holy Prophet (
image002.gif
) exceeds the importance of any other report whatsoever. They believed that it is a source of Islâmic law which will govern the Ummah for all times to come. They believed that any negligence in this respect will lead them to the severe punishment of hell. So, their sense of responsibility while reporting ahâdîth was far higher than that of a newsman reporting an important incident about the head of his country.

2. The interest of the reporter in the reported events and his ability to understand them correctly is another important factor which affects the accuracy of his report. If the reporter is indifferent or negligent about what he reports, little reliability can be placed on his memory or on any subsequent report based on it. But if the reporter is not only honest, serious, and intelligent but also interested and involved in the event, his report can easily be relied upon.

If some proceedings are going on in a court of law, the reports of these proceedings can be of different kinds. One report was given by a layman from the audience who was incidentally present at the court. He had neither any interest in the proceedings nor had due knowledge and understanding of the legal issues involved. He gathered a sketchy picture of the proceedings and reported it to a third person. Such a report can neither be relied upon nor taken as an authentic version of the proceedings. This report may be full of errors because the reporter lacks the ability to understand the matter correctly and the responsible attitude to report it accurately. Such a reporter may not only err in his reporting, but may after some time also forget the proceedings altogether.

Suppose there are some newsmen also who have witnessed the proceedings for the purpose of reporting them in their newspapers. They have more knowledge and understanding than a layman of the first kind. Their report shall be more correct than that of the former. But despite their interest and intelligence, they are not fully aware of the technical and legal questions involved in the proceedings. Their report shall thus remain deficient in the legal aspect of the proceedings and cannot be relied upon to that extent because despite their good memory, they cannot grasp the legal issues completely.

There were also lawyers who were directly involved in the proceedings. They participated in the debate at the bar. They have argued the case. They were fully aware of the delicate legal issues involved. They understood each and every sentence expressed by other lawyers and the judge. It is obvious that the report of the proceedings given by these lawyers shall be the most authentic one. Having full knowledge and understanding of the case they can neither forget nor err while reporting the substantial and material parts of the proceedings.

Suppose all the three categories had the same standard of memory power. Yet, the facts narrated by them have different levels of correctness. It shows that the interest of the reporter in the reported event and his understanding of the facts involved plays an important role in making his memory more effective and accurate.

The deep interest of the companions of the Holy Prophet (
image002.gif
) in his sayings and acts, rather even in his gestures, is beyond any doubt. Their understanding of what he said, and their close knowledge and observation of the background and the environment under which he spoke or acted cannot be questioned. Thus, all the basic factors which help mobilize one’s memory were present in them.

read on:

The Authority of Sunnah - Chapter 3

The above however was only talking about the memmorising factor; we know also that hadiths were written down too, thus the reliability of hadith is not based on memmory alone.

Salam
 
Salam brother

Here is an explanation that shows how the 'chinese whispers' effect did not effect the preservation of the meaning of the Quran:

The return of Jesus PBUH is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran. The idea
is totally dependent on the hadith. And the few hadith in Bukhari and
Muslim which talk of Jesus PBUH returning have been proven to be unreliable
by Dr. Shaafaat.
 
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