Why Judaism and Christianity reject Koran

[a slave of Allah]

Namaste saA,

There you have it, you've answered your own question, not so hard was it!

Jews and Christians are no different than Muslims in this regard.

A caveat, for myself and many others, we don't reject Islam or the Quran...for Muslims. It is appropriate for Muslims as the Torah is for the Jews and the Bible is for Christians and on and on.

Now to continue on this tract BB asked "what about ismailis and ahmadis?" and I'll add Sufis...do you reject or accept their beliefs?

I think we muslims are judged according to our prophet Mohammad prayer and peace be upon him and his family.

If any muslim or any one claim to be muslim say some religious thoughts, he has to prove them from the Noble Quran and the true Hadeeth for these are the only reference of our religion.

otherwise, they are his thoughts, not Islam's.

 

[wil]

I think we muslims are judged according to our prophet Mohammad prayer and peace be upon him and his family.

If any muslim or any one claim to be muslim say some religious thoughts, he has to prove them from the Noble Quran and the true Hadeeth for these are the only reference of our religion.

otherwise, they are his thoughts, not Islam's.

Did that answer the question?

Now to continue on this tract BB asked "what about ismailis and ahmadis?" and I'll add Sufis...do you reject or accept their beliefs?

So do they in your mind follow the pillars?

 

[spiritual learner]

Dear Amica, I loved reading your reply...so much truth in your content

 

[Netti-Netti]

I was raised Catholic. I never heard a Catholic sermon on the Koran. Does anyone know where the Church stands on the Koran?

The OP question suggests that Christianity rejects the Koran. I haven't seen anything about that from the Church.

Is there an official Judaic statement explaining what Judaism thinks?

 

[Amica]

Salaam--
Code, in the Holy Qur'an it states that she asked angel how could she concieve because no man had touched her (obviously sexually). Then, later in the Holy Qur'an we find that Allah Almighty in His description of Jesus pbuh says that Jesus pbuh is most like Adam pbuh. Does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why, no?

 

[Dream]

Islam rejects modern Christianity. Only modern Christianity can specifically reject Islam by name. Pre-Islamic Christianity, as far as I know, does not mention or reject Islam by name. I will stick my neck out and guess that Judaism is in a similar predicament. Perhaps that makes too many assumptions though?

 

[citizenzen]

This Buddhist wants to knock all your heads together, and then have a group hug.

 

[c0de]

Salaam--
Code, in the Holy Qur'an it states that she asked angel how could she concieve because no man had touched her (obviously sexually). Then, later in the Holy Qur'an we find that Allah Almighty in His description of Jesus pbuh says that Jesus pbuh is most like Adam pbuh. Does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why, no?

I know but just remember that no where is it explicitly stated
that Jesus PBUH was conceived via virgin birth. So the assertion that he
was, is (at the end of the day) just an assertion, yea? Both views can be
supported through the descriptions in the verses. Personally, I think the
non-virgin birth idea is more plausible.

As for the comment that he was like Adam (pbuh), well, that just means
that he was a normal human being (not divine) i.e. possessed a normal human body.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Islam rejects modern Christianity.

I'd include Liberation Theology in "Modern Christianity." The Pope clearly rejected it before he became Pope. I assume he was a hired gun and his comments reflected the Church's position.

Do you consider contemporary fundamentalism to be part of "Modern Christianity"?

Btw, which Muslim countries had you surveyed when you discovered that Islam rejects modern Christianity?

 

[Dream]

Do you consider contemporary fundamentalism to be part of "Modern Christianity"?

Btw, which Muslim countries had you surveyed when you discovered that Islam rejects modern Christianity?

I said Islam rejected modern Christianity based on the statement I had read in the Quran, however I am reconsidering. By modern Christianity I meant post-Islamic or After Islam. (A.I. ?)

It is a joke to call fundamentalism 'Contemporary', funnyman. Ha ha joke's on me. In fairness to you, modern Christianity is hard to identify. It is difficult to choose something and say 'This is its modern form'.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I know but just remember that no where is it explicitly stated
that Jesus PBUH was conceived via virgin birth. So the assertion that he
was, is (at the end of the day) just an assertion, yea? Both views can be
supported through the descriptions in the verses. Personally, I think the
non-virgin birth idea is more plausible.

As for the comment that he was like Adam (pbuh), well, that just means
that he was a normal human being (not divine) i.e. possessed a normal human body.

Well, c0de, there are many Quranic statements that contradict what you think.

1- The Quran refers to Jesus as the son of Mary, a statement that is repeated many times to assure the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him.

2- The attacks Mary peace be upon her experienced from her tribe after giving birth to Jesus peace be upon him is a clear evidence that Mary didnt get married. If she had got married as you said, her tribe would have been the first to know.

3- When the Quran makes a comparaison between the creation of Adam and Jesus peace be upon them, the purpose is to reply against those who took Jesus's virgin birth as a proof of his divinity. If Jesus had had a father, the Quran would have replied by showing up this fact. Yet, the Quran's purpose through that verse is to show that as Jesus was created out of a mother only. His birth is as miraculous as that of Adam peace be upon them all.

 

[c0de]

Well, c0de, there are many Quranic statements that contradict what you think.

Salaam DIB,

If this were a court of law and you were heading the prosecution, you would lose your case. Because all the evidence you have presented above would be considered circumstantial and I can provide counter-arguments against all of these claims, which will be equally based in speculation. This is why I said both views can be supported via the Quran. The only fact we know is that nowhere is it stated that Jesus PBUH was conceived via a virgin birth or Mary (pbuh) was impregnated by the holy spirit etc.

I will admit that there is a hint towards this conclusion, but it is also equally possible that these "hints" are a result of our own misconceptions because we have been brainwashed into believing something, which is basically a Christian concept. But I will respond to each of your points just to show you how they can all be countered:

1- The Quran refers to Jesus as the son of Mary, a statement that is repeated many times to assure the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him.

This does not "assure" the virgin birth. It only proves that Jesus (pbuh) was born of Mary (pbuh), the best of all women. It is a title of honor. You can use it is an indication of a virgin birth, but not as conclusive evidence.

2- The attacks Mary peace be upon her experienced from her tribe after giving birth to Jesus peace be upon him is a clear evidence that Mary didnt get married. If she had got married as you said, her tribe would have been the first to know.

But we already know from the Quran that she was not with her tribe (or even her familly) before, during or after conception. We have no way of knowing how long she stayed away, or what happened to her during her absence either. All we know is that when she returned, her tribe accused her of indecency. This could be due to any number of reasons. For example: this accusation could have been an attack not on Mary (pbuh) but on Jesus (pbuh) directly, as he was the one who was now the real threat to the priestly establishment. They might have been using her absence from the tribe to fabricate lies against her to discredit Jesus (pbuh).

There are some key things to note here. First of all, we must ask why Jesus (pbuh) in order to defend himself against these accusations never says that he was born of a virgin. If this is the accusation against Mary (pbuh) that she committed this great sin, then why does Jesus (pbuh) not counter this accusation by saying that he was born via a virgin birth?

Secondly, the Bible says that she was arranged to be married to Joseph. The Quran also states that lots were cast, presumably for her marriage. So there is a hint in both the Bible and the Quran that she was due to be married around this time. The bible I think even states that she was already married by the time the holy spirit appeared to her. However, there is a key difference between the Bible narrative, and the Quran. In the Bible, we are told that the holy spirit "overshadowed" Mary (pbuh) and thus she conceived a son. However, the Quran does not state this, why? For what reason is this detail left out? Instead God just states that she conceived him, and does not state that the holy spirit "overshadowed" her or played any part in the process of conception. This is a key difference, and this is what makes this whole issue ambiguous.

For all we know, she was away from her tribe for decades (with or without her husband, we do not know). We do not even know what happened to her husband. It is very possible that she only returned to the area when Jesus (pbuh) was fully grown and began his ministry at the age of 30. And when the priests attacked her, she pointed to Jesus (pbuh) as he was now a prophet of God and they should have submitted to him instead of accusing him and his mother of such sins. But they would not listen to Jesus (pbuh) because he was so much younger then the elderly priests. This explains why they ridiculed him as being a "child in the cradle".

3- When the Quran makes a comparaison between the creation of Adam and Jesus peace be upon them, the purpose is to reply against those who took Jesus's virgin birth as a proof of his divinity. If Jesus had had a father, the Quran would have replied by showing up this fact. Yet, the Quran's purpose through that verse is to show that as Jesus was created out of a mother only. His birth is as miraculous as that of Adam peace be upon them all.

I could easily use the same argument against you: if God wanted to "prove" that Jesus (pbuh) was born via a virgin birth, then why did He not state it clearly in the Quran? Why does the Quran avoid the statement of the holy spirit "overshadowing" Mary (pbuh) that is stated in the bible? In the Quran, the actual verse which states that Mary (pbuh) concieved does not contain any referrence to the holy spirit, or to any virgin birth. It just says that she "concieved".

This is why arguing over speculation is discouraged in the Quran. I am not saying that there is not a possibility that Jesus (pbuh) was born via a virgin birth. All I am saying is that the Quran does not explicitly say that he was, so you can not claim that he was for sure. You do not know, and neither do I.

There is much in the Quran which can be seen from different perspectives. We do not really know what happened because we were not there. And I think these ambiguities in these narratives are left for a good reason because this allows different people with different ideas to all find a basis for their ideas in the Quran. What is important is not whether Jesus (pbuh) was born of a virgin birth or not, but to act on what the prophets tell us to do and turn our focus towards God alone.


PeAcE

 

[Netti-Netti]

 

[c0de]

kid: "Dear Lord, please make my parents get me a cat..."

dog: "Oh Lord, please disregard previous message. Sender is clearly crazy! p.s. please don't let these wierdos neuter me!!"

 

[dailogue is the best]

Salaam DIB,

If this were a court of law and you were heading the prosecution, you would lose your case. Because all the evidence you have presented above would be considered circumstantial and I can provide counter-arguments against all of these claims, which will be equally based in speculation.

Alaykomsalam, c0de

How confident you are, brother!! Are sure that I would lose the case. If you were a lawyer, a smart one, you would change your job once you met me.. Well, let's start the discussion.

This does not "assure" the virgin birth. It only proves that Jesus (pbuh) was born of Mary (pbuh), the best of all women. It is a title of honor. You can use it is an indication of a virgin birth, but not as conclusive evidence.

I agree, though this is not the main proof to show the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him.

But we already know from the Quran that she was not with her tribe (or even her familly) before, during or after conception. We have no way of knowing how long she stayed away, or what happened to her during her absence either. All we know is that when she returned, her tribe accused her of indecency. This could be due to any number of reasons. For example: this accusation could have been an attack not on Mary (pbuh) but on Jesus (pbuh) directly, as he was the one who was now the real threat to the priestly establishment. They might have been using her absence from the tribe to fabricate lies against her to discredit Jesus (pbuh).

Here, brother, I think there are a lot to explain. It may be true that we dont know how much Mary peace be upon her was abscent from her tribe as she chose for herself a remote place for worshipping God: [19:16] Mention in the scripture Mary. She isolated herself from her family, into an eastern location." . Yet, the idea of accusing a married woman of indecency wouldnt trouble Mary peace be upon her if she was really married. Look at what she said when she was giving birth of Jesus peace be upon them all:
"[19:23] The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "(I am so ashamed) I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten." How could a married woman say such words while giving birth of her baby unless she is a pure virgin woman who feels shame of what is happening with her.

Also, brother, Jesus at that time was not yet annoying the priesthood establishment because he was really/physically a child at the cradle at that time. You have interpreted the verse metaphorically, and you may be true in that as the Jews addressed him. But, what about this verse wherein God emphasizes the fact that Jesus peace be upon him talked while he was in the cradle:
[5:110] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, `This is obviously magic.'

There are some key things to note here. First of all, we must ask why Jesus (pbuh) in order to defend himself against these accusations never says that he was born of a virgin. If this is the accusation against Mary (pbuh) that she committed this great sin, then why does Jesus (pbuh) not counter this accusation by saying that he was born via a virgin birth?

Was not his talking as a child a decisive proof that a divine power interfered to make his birth from one parent possible?!! Didnot Jesus peace be upon hims said: "[19:30] (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.

[19:31] "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live. [19:32] "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel." Why didnot he said " I am to honor my parents"!!! The answer is simply because that her tribe knew very well that Mary was not married and that's why they directly attacked her of sin. Yet, Jesus's talking at that time was a cutting proof against their charge. Jesus peace be upon him hadnt to say that he was born via a virgin birth since his talking in the cradle showed the existence of a power that could make his virgin birth possible.

However, there is a key difference between the Bible narrative, and the Quran. In the Bible, we are told that the holy spirit "overshadowed" Mary (pbuh) and thus she conceived a son. However, the Quran does not state this, why? For what reason is this detail left out? Instead God just states that she conceived him, and does not state that the holy spirit "overshadowed" her or played any part in the process of conception. This is a key difference, and this is what makes this whole issue ambiguous.

In the Quran, we find the angel Galbriel saying the following to Mary: [19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."
[19:20] She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste." [19:21] He said, "Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.' " If Mary was going to give normal birth of child via marriage, then what is the use of preparing Mary peace be upon her to deliver such news?!! It is normal news to give a birth of a child via marriage. Plus, Mary peace be upon her was not praying for God to marry and have a son so that we can interpret God's sending the angel Galbriel to deliver her those news as response to her suplication ( as the story with Zachariah who was asking God for a child, though he and his wife were very old:

[19:2] A narration about your Lord's mercy towards His servant Zachariah.
[19:3] He called his Lord, a secret call.
[19:4] He said, "My Lord, the bones have turned brittle in my body, and my hair is aflame with gray. As I implore You, my Lord, I never despair.
[19:5] "I worry about my dependants after me, and my wife has been sterile. Grant me, from You, an heir.
[19:6] "Let him be my heir and the heir of Jacob's clan, and make him, my Lord, acceptable."
[19:7] "O Zachariah, we give you good news; a boy whose name shall be John (Yahya). We never created anyone like him before."
[19:8] He said, "My Lord, will I have a son despite my wife's sterility, and despite my old age?" [19:9] He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' "

This is why arguing over speculation is discouraged in the Quran. I am not saying that there is not a possibility that Jesus (pbuh) was born via a virgin birth. All I am saying is that the Quran does not explicitly say that he was, so you can not claim that he was for sure. You do not know, and neither do I.

There is much in the Quran which can be seen from different perspectives. We do not really know what happened because we were not there. And I think these ambiguities in these narratives are left for a good reason because this allows different people with different ideas to all find a basis for their ideas in the Quran. What is important is not whether Jesus (pbuh) was born of a virgin birth or not, but to act on what the prophets tell us to do and turn our focus towards God alone.


PeAcE

I agree, brother.. My salutaions

 

[c0de]

Salaam DIB,

If you were a lawyer, a smart one, you would change your job once you met me.

aha! the joke's on you sister cuz im not smart at all !

...wait a second... crap!

[5:110] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, `This is obviously magic.'

Was not his talking as a child a decisive proof that a divine power interfered to make his birth from one parent possible?!!

How is this "decisive proof" ?? Most healthy children start speaking when in the cradle. Are most children born via virgin birth? The only thing this proves is that Jesus PBUH was a healthy child. Taken together it proves that Jesus PBUH lived a healthy fulfilling life (right here on earth) just like every other man.

If Mary was going to give normal birth of child via marriage, then what is the use of preparing Mary peace be upon her to deliver such news?!! It is normal news to give a birth of a child via marriage. Plus, Mary peace be upon her was not praying for God to marry and have a son so that we can interpret God's sending the angel Galbriel to deliver her those news as response to her suplication ( as the story with Zachariah who was asking God for a child, though he and his wife were very old:

Yes but this does not prove the virgin birth. They were given the good news that their sons would grow up to be prophets, that is all. The Prophet Abraham (Pbuh) was given the same news of a son via revelation and told that his seed would prosper. It had nothing to do with the virgin birth.

"[19:23] The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "(I am so ashamed) I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten." How could a married woman say such words while giving birth of her baby unless she is a pure virgin woman who feels shame of what is happening with her.

... That is circumstantial evidence DIB.... She was probably crying because of the extreme pain of childbirth and being alone during the proccess.

Yet, the idea of accusing a married woman of indecency wouldnt trouble Mary peace be upon her if she was really married.

This is speculation DIB. Who knows what she was troubled with or she wasn't troubled with? You can not use any of this as conclusive proof for your argument. It is also a little irrelevant to the argument that this accusation was really directed against Jesus PBUH who was by now a threat to the priestly establishment.

Also, brother, Jesus at that time was not yet annoying the priesthood establishment because he was really/physically a child at the cradle at that time. You have interpreted the verse metaphorically, and you may be true in that as the Jews addressed him. But, what about this verse wherein God emphasizes the fact that Jesus peace be upon him talked while he was in the cradle:
[5:110] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, `This is obviously magic.'

This is contradictory... If he was speaking like a grown up while still a child, then he would be the biggest threat to the priesthood.


PeAcE


p.s. Lawyers suck!

 

[dailogue is the best]

Salaam DIB,


aha! the joke's on you sister cuz im not smart at all !

...wait a second... crap!

Alaykom salam, c0de..

Nice to find out that you are so modest..

How is this "decisive proof" ?? Most healthy children start speaking when in the cradle. Are most children born via virgin birth? The only thing this proves is that Jesus PBUH was a healthy child. Taken together it proves that Jesus PBUH lived a healthy fulfilling life (right here on earth) just like every other man.

How could you compare what Jesus peace be upon him said when he was in the cradle to any other child, no matter how healthy he is?!!!!!! A child's words in the cradle wont exceed " dad," and " mum" or some simple words.....

Yes but this does not prove the virgin birth. They were given the good news that their sons would grow up to be prophets, that is all. The Prophet Abraham (Pbuh) was given the same news of a son via revelation and told that his seed would prosper. It had nothing to do with the virgin birth.

Both Zachariyah and Abraham peace be upon them were praying for God to give them a son. Hence, God responded to their prayers. Mary wasnt praying to God for that. God chose her to be the mother of Jesus peace be upon him. Mary was chosen to give a virgin birth to Jesus peace be upon him because of her high reputation. It is true that she was attacked, but there are many who believed in her.

... That is circumstantial evidence DIB.... She was probably crying because of the extreme pain of childbirth and being alone during the proccess.

how come that she wished she was forgotten just because of birthpain!!! what had being forgotten to do with birthpain!!!!!!!!!!how come that she wished she was dead before giving a birth of his child unless she felt the shame of what is hapenning with her!!!

This is contradictory... If he was speaking like a grown up while still a child, then he would be the biggest threat to the priesthood.

Well,c0de, they attacked his mother before he spoke, right???? They attacked his mother before he started to threaten their priesthood. Allah knows best..

In God's protection

ps: not all lawyers...

 

[c0de]

Salaam DIB

Alaykom salam, c0de..

Nice to find out that you are so modest..

I try

How could you compare what Jesus peace be upon him said when he was in the cradle to any other child, no matter how healthy he is?!!!!!! A child's words in the cradle wont exceed " dad," and " mum" or some simple words.....

It seems you missed the point DIB. No where does it state that Jesus PBUH spoke anymore or less then any other child. The Quran just said that he "spoke" when young and old, meaning that he was granted a healthy life. Allah knows best what he spoke, but you can not build your case on this.

Both Zachariyah and Abraham peace be upon them were praying for God to give them a son. Hence, God responded to their prayers. Mary wasnt praying to God for that.

How do you know what Mary (pbuh) was praying for? But this is irrelevant anyway. In no other case when revelation was given the coming of a child did a virgin birth take place.

Mary was chosen to give a virgin birth to Jesus peace be upon him because of her high reputation. It is true that she was attacked, but there are many who believed in her.

But you haven't proven that she was chosen to give a "virgin birth". She was chosen to be the mother of a prophet. Moses's PBUH mother was also granted revelation remember?

how come that she wished she was forgotten just because of birthpain!!! what had being forgotten to do with birthpain!!!!!!!!!!how come that she wished she was dead before giving a birth of his child unless she felt the shame of what is hapenning with her!!!

relax DIB, all those exclamation marks aren't good for the blood pressure

Firstly, at this time, she was not accused of anything so she had nothing to be ashamed of. Secondly, when she uttered those words during child birth, in the throes of phsyical pain and being completely alone at the time.

Well,c0de, they attacked his mother before he spoke, right???? They attacked his mother before he started to threaten their priesthood.

Are you sure? It is just as possible that this incident happened when Jesus PBUH started his ministry. When the elders accused him of still being a "child in the cradle" that might have been an insult to Jesus PBUH because he was so much younger then the elder priests and claimed authority over them.


PeAcE

 

[a slave of Allah]

Well, c0de, there are many Quranic statements that contradict what you think.

1- The Quran refers to Jesus as the son of Mary, a statement that is repeated many times to assure the virgin birth of Jesus peace be upon him.

2- The attacks Mary peace be upon her experienced from her tribe after giving birth to Jesus peace be upon him is a clear evidence that Mary didnt get married. If she had got married as you said, her tribe would have been the first to know.

3- When the Quran makes a comparaison between the creation of Adam and Jesus peace be upon them, the purpose is to reply against those who took Jesus's virgin birth as a proof of his divinity. If Jesus had had a father, the Quran would have replied by showing up this fact. Yet, the Quran's purpose through that verse is to show that as Jesus was created out of a mother only. His birth is as miraculous as that of Adam peace be upon them all.

I agree with you,

I think the idea in the holy Quran is clear, Mary was not even touched by human being.

So she was a virgin.

 

[c0de]

I agree with you,

I think the idea in the holy Quran is clear, Mary was not even touched by human being.

So she was a virgin.

yes... at the time she received revelation, she was a virgin.
But that is all that can be said with any certainty.