Judaism and Free Will: Traditional and Contemporary Perspectives

[Avi]

I think it is most likely that all human actions are determined by causality and that no determined actions are free. Therefore no human actions are free.

I have another take on this. While you believe the duality is settled by determinism and lack of free will, I believe that it is settled by free will and lack of divine knowledge.

So it seems to me that determinism cannot apply in many situations, and it is actually not a duality.

Why can't it apply in many situations and why is it not a duality? And what does it matter whether it is or is not a duality? I've never mentioned a duality.

What I mean by a duality is the same idea that light is envisioned as a duality between waves and particles. Neither conception is really complete while at the same time they both give a great deal of insight into the nature of light.

In the same sense, I consider it a duality to believe that “all is known” while we have “freedom of choice”. It is also paradoxical.

Going back to the anthropomorphism issue, for just a second. What I meant was that G-d being “all knowing” implies that G-d “knows” in the sense that man knows. That he / she knows something in his / her mind. This is corporealistic to me. If G-d is non-corporealistic, it seems to me that he / she cannot “know” all.

 

[dauer]

In the same sense, I consider it a duality to believe that “all is known” while we have “freedom of choice”. It is also paradoxical.

I don't believe we have freedom of choice. I only think that we experience the world as if we do.

What I meant was that G-d being “all knowing” implies that G-d “knows” in the sense that man knows. That he / she knows something in his / her mind. This is corporealistic to me. If G-d is non-corporealistic, it seems to me that he / she cannot “know” all

How do you understand the notion of Divine will?

 

[spiritual learner]

don't have freedom of choice....do you mean that we are free to choose but only one choice is the one leading us in the right direction?

 

[dauer]

don't have freedom of choice....do you mean that we are free to choose but only one choice is the one leading us in the right direction?

No. I stated explicitly what I mean:

I think it is most likely that all human actions are determined by causality and that no determined actions are free. Therefore no human actions are free.

 

[Avi]

How do you understand the notion of Divine will?

I do not believe there is such a thing as divine will. I believe that the closest traditional idea to the one you mentioned relates to the idea of the Shechina. I learned a little about this when I read Buber’s, Baal Shem Tov. Perhaps BB can discuss this idea further.
In my own view, G-d’s presence is in every molecule of air and water and within ourselves. But I do not believe that G-d has will in the same sense that we have will.

Also, I would like to hear your views on the issue related to causality vs. free will.

 

[dauer]

Avi,

I do not believe there is such a thing as divine will. I believe that the closest traditional idea to the one you mentioned relates to the idea of the Shechina. I learned a little about this when I read Buber’s, Baal Shem Tov. Perhaps BB can discuss this idea further.

I explained the different conceptualizations of the shechina to you elsewhere (bottom of this post: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/integral-halachah-10936.html#post185663 ) and suggested further reading if you're interested in where the shechina came from and how it evolved (The Hebrew Goddess by Patai.) Buber isn't the best place to learn about Jewish concepts.

In my own view, G-d’s presence is in every molecule of air and water and within ourselves. But I do not believe that G-d has will in the same sense that we have will.

In what sense does G!d have will to you?

Also, I would like to hear your views on the issue related to causality vs. free will.

I'm not sure exactly what you wanted to hear as I already explained my position above. For me it's not a matter of G!d, just the nature of life. I don't assume that G!d exists outside of our own subjective experiences. The experience of choice seems to me a way that our minds help to maintain our sanity when faced with so many different and competing inclinations.

 

[Avi]

My sense is that the experience of free will may be the mind's attempt to make sense for us of multiple drives and inclinations by creating the narrative of free choice. But should we have all of the data necessary (and I'm not sure we'll ever be able to collect that data and crunch it) I think we could predict the so-called choice of the individual in whatever situation he finds himself in.

How can you predict this choice ? Is it based on some objective function ? Then you are assuming that you are able to optimize the objective function in some sense. Also, relating to collecting the data and crunching it, this assumes that we are perfectly rational. Some to some extent, our free will may relate to irrational choices we make.

Also, I would be interested to hear more about how Carl Rogers, if-then, relates to the notion of free will.

Buber isn't the best place to learn about Jewish concepts.

Baal Shem Tov provided a very unique insight to Chassidic Judasim.

 

[dauer]

Avi,

How can you predict this choice ? Is it based on some objective function ? Then you are assuming that you are able to optimize the objective function in some sense. Also, relating to collecting the data and crunching it, this assumes that we are perfectly rational. Some to some extent, our free will may relate to irrational choices we make.

I am not saying that we can actually predict, just that we could if we had enough data, that our actions are a product of nature and nurture, no free will. If we had the collective experiences of an individual up until the present moment and all of their DNA broken down and understood and could plug it into a powerful enough computer, I think we could predict their actions.

Also, relating to collecting the data and crunching it, this assumes that we are perfectly rational. Some to some extent, our free will may relate to irrational choices we make.

I don't assume we're perfectly rational, just that our brains function in a determined fashion. I do assume that we have many competing inclinations and that, as self-aware beings, to witness them all would be more traumatic than the experience of choice. I think it would probably be helpful if you define what you mean by rational and irrational.

Also, I would be interested to hear more about how Carl Rogers, if-then, relates to the notion of free will.

I mentioned Carl Rogers because he's written papers that frame his person-centered approach as an IF-THEN and he's an individual that many people don't think of in that light. You can see how he fleshes that out in his A Theory of Therapy, Personality, and Interpersonal Relationships, As Developed in the Client-Centered Framework which was originally published in Psychology: A Study of a Science by Koch.

My point then is to show that even he has written in ways that are sympathetic to a causal view of human behavior.

Baal Shem Tov provided a very unique insight to Chassidic Judasim.

I can't comment on that volume, but he does have his biases and they do enter into his writing. A decent essay on neo-hasidism can be found here:

Reb Zalman Legacy Project: Early Neo-Hasidism

It discusses buber, among others, their attraction to hasidism, their focus and so on.

 

[Avi]

Very nice link to the R. Zalman project. Will discuss further with you shortly.

Thanks.

 

[Sancho]

What relationship do you see between free will and the covenant?

Perhaps our only freedom is our choice to turn to G!d or to turn away, that is, to accept the covenant or deny it. But once we have bound ourselves to G!d we are given the freedom to participate in the divine will through prayer.

 

[Avi]

What relationship do you see between free will and the covenant?

Perhaps our only freedom is our choice to turn to G!d or to turn away, that is, to accept the covenant or deny it. But once we have bound ourselves to G!d we are given the freedom to participate in the divine will through prayer.

Hi Sancho,

You have much more faith than I. As a Reform Jew my only view on the covenent is a cultural one. That means that I only follow the rules if they make sense. For example, if I want to eat shellfish, that is ok, except I have to watch my cholesterol