The 3 major Events Important to God

[soleil10]

Is it really our responsibility? Yes you say? Since you all agree give me a scripture on that?
For one thing, I know for a fact, that the word "responsibility" does not appear in the Scriptures. Not even in the King James, not even once. Maybe the "obligation rests with us?" No. That word isn’t used in the Bible either. Maybe these words aren't in the Bible because they are not true.

Azure, when God gave Adam and Eve a commandment, what is a responsibility for them to fulfill or not ?

After the tragedy of the human fall when Adam and Eve volontarily trusted Lucifer instead of God and surrendered their authority to him, we can see that the whole Old Testament report story after story of chosen proviential figures to whom God asked to fulfill certain responsibilities to re-establish a new foundation of faith and reverse the order where Satan dominates man.

God ask Cain and Abel to offer a sacrifice. God ask Noah to build an Ark on the top of a mountain. God ask Abraham to offer a sacrifice. When he failed the first time, God asked him to offer a greater sacrifice the second time of his own son.

We can go on and on. The whole story in the bible in preparation to Jesus is about man fulfilling his portion of responsibility and prepare a new lineage where a new Messiah could be born.

When Tamar slept with her Father in law so she could continue God's lineage. She felt it was her responsibiliy to attend God in this way. Providential figures put their life on the line over and over to fulfill God's will.

"For even as in Adam, ALL are dying, thus ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL [this "all" is the same "all" that are dying in Adam, hence: everyone] be vivified [imparting life beyond the reaches of death

Christ is the second Adam.Through the human fall we became part of Satan lineage as Jesus said. The problem with the Original sin has to be solved by a new sinless Adam (messiah) who had God's seed. That is where it starts.

Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ

Yes , He is the first fruit, the first one to reach the 1st blessing given by God in Genesie. Be fruitful unfortunately, he was rejected and killed before he could fulfill the 2nd blessing in Genesis which is multiply. For this reason, we ourselves are still born with the original sin and the Messiah as to return

... For He must be reigning until [but not longer] He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death... Then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL in ALL" (I Cor.. 15:22-28) (Emphasis mine). WOW!

During the human fall A&E died spiritually. Through the resurection, Jesus was completely victorious spiritually but Satan was able to take his precious body.

Read I Tim. 4:10 very carefully:

"... We rely on the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL mankind, especially of believers."
Including the sinners? You say? Does God only love sinners after they repent and believe in Christ as their Savior? No. ("... While we are STILL sinners, Christ died for our sakes." (Rom. 5:8).
Is God just "partial" toward saving some while condemning the rest? No. ("For there is no partiality with God ..." Rom. 2:11

Yes it rains on everyone, sinners or non sinners. Actually, we are all sinners and belong to Satan lineage. For God, we are ultimately all His children.

"Yet the grace of our Lord OVERWHELMS, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." (I Tim. 1:14).

The Christian Clergy just can’t comprehend this verse. The grace of God overwhelms. Many clergymen fear that people will use grace for a license to sin if they teach it. The reality of it is, that people stop sinning because the grace of God overwhelms them. Grace is power!

Yes God's grace is overwhelming. It is 95%. Like for Adam and Eve God requires us to do our own 5% so we can be co-creator with him. God's motivation to create was love. It takes 2 to experience love. Man's free response to God's love is essential.

One more extremely profound verse in Romans one. If only great theologians would believe it. Unfortunately, they don’t. Not totally. Okay, here it is:

"Faithful is this saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS ..." (Ver. 15).
All have sinned. All are sinning. All will sin. The whole world is composed of SINNERS.

God's live for the sake of his children. Part of growing up is to be responsible and trustworthy. God's also wants to receive perfect love from us. At the time of Jesus, it was people's responsibility to believe in Jesus. They had the free will to do it or not. No parent on earth can appreciate the love of their children if it was not free. It is the same for God.

Does anyone here believe in the illusion of free will?

I believe in the reality of free will

 

[Azure24]

Hi all, soleil. Soleil I have not seen you here before, new? Before I continue (and I always say this and no one listens) may I say free will has NOTHING to do with choice, all choices are CAUSED by one thing or another... We eat because we're hungry, we sleep because we are tired etc...we even try to be irrational to show we can be irrational (still caused).

Azure, when God gave Adam and Eve a commandment, what is a responsibility for them to fulfill or not ?

I've already answered this (many, many times in fact), so for this I'll quote myself...

I urge everyone to read this Scripture CAREFULLY (don't worry I've added CAPS and underlined the words of most importance to help).

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] wasMADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAINuntil NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. You mentioned Strong's Dictionary earlier, let’s see what these words entail from Strong’s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].
BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.
CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish
GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.
TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.
PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.


...

You see, the force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. And as always, proof:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards.Just two verses before, Paul tells us how God subjected the whole creation to these many evils and he gives us this comforting thought:

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [’groaning and travailing in pain together until now’ Ver 22] are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be revealed in US" (Ver. 18).

At the time of Jesus, it was people's responsibility to believe in Jesus. They had the free will to do it or not.

explain these...

These words spoken by Jesus himself...

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
"I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ’s will, not man’s will.

and...

"...for MANY be called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 20:16)

Who is doing the calling, who is doing the chosing?

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God [not faith ‘IN’ the Son of God, but the very faith ‘OF’ the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). It is not by the ‘free will’ of our faith that we live, but the by the faith OF Jesus. There is no human free will in all this.

"…no man can say [with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12).

"For it is God [who? ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

"God our Saviour; Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."(Tim. 2:4)
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free [here is this ‘cause and effect’ thing again] from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2).

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:23).
"…for without Me, YE [all of you] CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).


"Or despise you the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? (Rom. 2:4).

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise" (John 5:19).

Yeah that's right, Jesus (The Christ) can do nothing of himself but YOU can, MAN can and all the MUDERER'S and RAPIST'S of this world can... Keep telling yourself that...

That not enough for you? I know let's hear another one...

"I can of mine own self DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the father which has sent Me" (John 5:30).

Remember, when God wants to emphasize something He often repeats it. If God gave all humanity a "free will," and it is a good thing to have a "free will," then why is it that not even our Lord trusted in such a gift from God? If Jesus had His own "free will," why did He trust only in the will of His Father? Maybe man’s will is not as "free" as theologians would like you to believe.

Again:

"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of Him that sent me" (John 6:38).

It is hard to even imagine that some will not get this point.

Why Jesus didn't even speak his own words...

"Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself, but the Father that dwells in Me, He does the works" (John 14:10).

"He that loves Me not keeps not My sayings: and the word which ye hear is NOT MINE, but the Father’s which sent Me" (John 14:24).

But that's just Jesus, not us you say?

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He (oh and by the way, 'He' is Jesus) IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I John 4:17).

No parent on earth can appreciate the love of their children if it was not free. It is the same for God.

I'll let Paul answer this for you...

"For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not RECEIVE? And if you did RECEIVE it, why do you boast as though you did not?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)

"Is there not an APPOINTED TIME to man upon earth? Are not his DAYS also like the days of an hireling? (Job 7:1).

I believe in the reality of free will

Then believe this...

"Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11).

 

[soleil10]

may I say free will has NOTHING to do with choice, all choices are CAUSED by one thing or another... We eat because we're hungry, we sleep because we are tired etc...we even try to be irrational to show we can be irrational (still caused).

Free will mostly concerns our mind, our conscience, our spirit. Your 2 examples are kind of poor. The growth of your physical body is automantic. The growth of your spirit is based on doing good actions. Someone can fast for days according to his will but soon or later he knows that his body needs food. Every day we make free will choices. Adam and Eve had a choice and a responsibility to exercise their free will. Now that we are fallen, we have an original mind and a fallen mind and are slave to many sin. Our spirit is weaker than before the fall. (that is another subject).

These words spoken by Jesus himself...

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
"I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ’s will, not man’s will.

"Many are called but few are chosen". Even when you are chosen you have the free will to respond. Israel was chosen to receive the Messiah but did reject him. Before Jacob received the title of Israel, he had to suffer under his uncle, then he had to win his brother's heart, then he had to win over the angel. This is based on his free will and his victory for accomplishing his responsibility.

and...

"...for MANY be called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 20:16)Who is doing the calling, who is doing the chosing?

You are chosen based on your actions. Many are not chosen because they have the free will to reject God

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God. ..

not faith ‘IN’ the Son of God, but the very faith ‘OF’ the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). It is not by the ‘free will’ of our faith that we live, but the by the faith OF Jesus. There is no human free will in all this.

Surrendering to God is part of free will. It is hard to do. After the human fall where A&E rejected God's commandment, we know have to overcome and reverse our fallen naure. It takes a strong will+ faith to do that. Very few people are able to do that. Jesus showed us the way and by following himwe can inherite his faith, his love for God etc....

"…no man can say

[with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12).

"For it is God [who? ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
"God our Saviour; Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."(Tim. 2:4)
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free [here is this ‘cause and effect’ thing again] from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2).

Azure, you are playing with words. Wen you show faith in God and do his will God works in you. Following Jesus is a libertion process from our fallen nature

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil"

;186308](Jer. 13:23).

"…for without Me, YE [all of you] CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

Without the Messiah, we cannot remove our original sin and reconnect us to the tree of life. We are still responsible for our personal sins, our family sins and collective sins

"Or despise you the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

(Rom. 2:4).

Of course. It does not means we do notnhave free will to reject it.

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise"

(John 5:19).

Yeah that's right, Jesus (The Christ) can do nothing of himself but YOU can, MAN can and all the MUDERER'S and RAPIST'S of this world can... Keep telling yourself that...

Jesus achieved oneness with God from his own effort then o course he will work in unity with God. Murderers have free will too.

That not enough for you? I know let's hear another one...

"I can of mine own self DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the father which has sent Me" (John 5:30).
Remember, when God wants to emphasize something He often repeats it. If God gave all humanity a "free will," and it is a good thing to have a "free will," then why is it that not even our Lord trusted in such a gift from God? If Jesus had His own "free will," why did He trust only in the will of His Father? Maybe man’s will is not as "free" as theologians would like you to believe.
Again:"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of Him that sent me" (John 6:38).It is hard to even imagine that some will not get this point.

Once again, Jesus was united totally with God. Something that Adam failed to do. Here he speaks based on his victorious foundaion of unity in love. God did not force him. True love is free,

Why Jesus didn't even speak his own words...

"Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself, but the Father that dwells in Me, He does the works" (John 14:10).
"He that loves Me not keeps not My sayings: and the word which ye hear is NOT MINE, but the Father’s which sent Me" (John 14:24).

Because Jesus achieve such unity with God, we can trust him and follow him. I do not see what the issue is. If the son a company owner spoke like this to the employees of the firm, they would trust the son too.

But that's just Jesus, not us you say?

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He (oh and by the way, 'He' is Jesus) IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I John 4:17).

Love MADE perfect, that's right. Made implies a time period and an action to get to that point.. We are call to do the same

I'll let Paul answer this for you..

"For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not RECEIVE? And if you did RECEIVE it, why do you boast as though you did not?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)
"Is there not an APPOINTED TIME to man upon earth? Are not his DAYS also like the days of an hireling? (Job 7:1).
Then believe this..."Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11).

Here I have to go to the larger context.I cant do it now.

 

[Azure24]

Hello All,



It has taken me two or maybe three hours to write this... So please read all (including the second post)

Free will mostly concerns our mind, our conscience, our spirit.

All spirits belong to God...

"And the LORD said, MY spirit shall not always strive with man, for that HE also is FLESH: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."(Genesis 6:3)

We do not go to heaven or hell when we die, no we go to Gehenna (in other words the grave).

Every day we make free will choices.

Perhaps you missed what I said earlier...

free will has NOTHING to do with choice, all choices are CAUSED

The 'choice' you made to have this conversation with me was 'caused' by the fact that you think I'm wrong and many, many other reasons. Your 'WILL' to do this is not 'FREE' as there is a purpose, to this. Tell me this, have you ever made deciscion that was entirely irrelevant to any causes? Think about it... I will go on to mention that free will has more in common with 'purpose' rather than 'choice'.

Adam and Eve had a choice and a responsibility to exercise their free will. Now that we are fallen, we have an original mind and a fallen mind and are slave to many sin. Our spirit is weaker than before the fall. (that is another subject).

No please go on...Did you read when i quoted myself about Adam and Eve in the last post? I think you should...

Israel was chosen to receive the Messiah but did reject him.

Yes, but for a PURPOSE I will elaborate if you want, later...

Before Jacob received the title of Israel, he had to suffer under his uncle, then he had to win his brother's heart, then he had to win over the angel. This is based on his free will and his victory for accomplishing his responsibility.

What was the purpose of this? Who's will was done in the end? You put here he HAD to suffer, he HAD to win his brother's heart...Tell me soleil why is it that he HAD to do these things? I had mentioned on an earlier post that all will worship God (perhaps you missed it) do you know the term...

EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue confess...

In the end we will ALL (Yes OUR OWN DECISION, though and I say THOUGH CAUSED) CHOOSE God, we will not be FORCED to do so, we will do so WILLINGLY. Why? Because Ezekiel Chapter 37 say's:

"... Our Saviour, God, Who wills [this is the very "will" of The Almighty Creator God] that all mankind [not some or a few, but all mankind] be saved ["saved," not condemned to eternity in Hell fire] and come to a realization [that’s "knowledge," a dispelling of "ignorance"] of the truth" [part of which is the truth that God planned from the beginning to save all mankind through the Sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ] .

You are chosen based on your actions. Many are not chosen because they have the free will to reject God

It is God's WILL that most reject him for now...

I do not say this out of my own opinion, God knows his children more than you and I. Did you know that all of Jesus' desciples rejected him? No, Judas was not the only culprit, they ALL were (and by this I mean everyone, you, I, more on this later).

As always, I will demonstrate...(EDIT: on the next post, this post is too big)

Surrendering to God is part of free will. It is hard to do. After the human fall where A&E rejected God's commandment, we know have to overcome and reverse our fallen naure. It takes a strong will+ faith to do that. Very few people are able to do that. Jesus showed us the way and by following him we can inherite his faith, his love for God etc....

Let me tell you this, NO MAN can overcome their nature.

you (in a way) have already answered for me (I know you meant 'now' instead of 'know' above in red...

straight from your mouth! First you said we NOW have to overcome and reverse our fallen nature then you say this...

Without the Messiah, we cannot remove our original sin and reconnect us to the tree of life.

You seem to be contradicting yourself, do we (as in ALL of us) have to overcome our fallen nature or the MESSIAH?

Wait! Don't say anything, let God's word answer...

"For even as in Adam, ALL are dying, thus ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL [this "all" is the same "all" that are dying in Adam, hence: everyone] be vivified [imparting life beyond the reaches of death]... Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ ... For He must be reigning until [but not longer] He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death... Then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL in ALL" (I Cor.. 15:22-28) (Emphasis mine). WOW!

Unbelievable isn't it!! According to God It was because of ONE (Adam) that ALL fell... Therefore it will also be because of ONE (Christ) that ALL then be saved.


soleil, This is indeed Good News!! We need even try...

...because you see soleil my friend ( I am genuinely happy right now)...

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God’s gift, not of WORKS, lest anyone should be boasting" (Eph. 2:8-9).

This is not "not out of you" or unbelievably even!!!! "not of works"

Wait! Wait! Let's look at that again!!!

"NOT OF WORKS"

Do you have any idea what this means!!! We are NOT even saved by what we had done on this earth!!!

Need more proof (I did mention when God says somethings important it can be found TWICE!!)

"Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).

Rejoice, Rejoice!! soleil!!!

If our Lord...

"...is a consuming fire"(Heb 12:29)

...And when he has...

"...judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." (Rev. 20:13).

...So...

"...EVERY MAN’S WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13a).

...Then...

"...If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward..." (I Cor. 3:13-15)

...And...

"...If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).

Do you now believe? These...

"...words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". (John 6:63)

We are still responsible for our personal sins, our family sins and collective sins

But who is now responsible?

"Faithful is this saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS ..."(I Tim. 1:15).

It does not means we do notnhave free will to reject it.

You must mean "It does not mean we do not have free choice to reject it".

Of course we have a choice!!! And EVERYMAN's choice is to reject it...

"Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11).

Jesus achieved oneness with God from his own effort then o course he will work in unity with God.

His own effort? His own effort? Really and where does it say that Christ unites with God at his own effort? All I see is this...

"I can of mine own self DO NOTHING"(John 5:30).

and...

"…for without Me, YE [all of you] CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

Wait, hold on for a sec! I have a thought!

Compare:

"I can of mine own self DO NOTHING"(John 5:30).

and

"…for without Me, YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

Both quotes are spoken by Jesus. Don't they seem to be contradicting?

No they are not...

In the first quote Jesus (the man, the flesh) is speaking. Quess who is speaking in the second?

"the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."(John 14:10)

Believe it or not this will apply to all men...

"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

 

[Azure24]

Once again, Jesus was united totally with God. Something that Adam failed to do.

Adam FAILED to do? NO Adam could NOT do!!

Look how both were MADE by God ( Willingly, intentionally, purposefully)...

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

Understand now... Most Bibles do not do favour to the true saying...

"And saying is God, Make WILL WE [a continuing action] humanity in Our image…"

and...

"And CREATING [a continuing action] is God humanity in His image" (Gen. 1:26a & 27a Concordant Literal Old Testament),

<--(Check out the Concordant Literal Old Testament)

Love MADE perfect, that's right. Made implies a time period and an action to get to that point.. We are call to do the same

You mistake me (I thought I was clear?). Anyhow I was reffering to:

"...because as He IS, SO ARE WE in the world." (I John 4:17).

Here's something else...

Free will contradicts foreknowledge...

I said I will prove that even Christ's own disciples rejected him (though only for a while...)

Can we believe that Jesus could have told His disciples the following:

"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night"

or...
"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night, but then again, maybe not all of you will be offended seeing that all of you have a free will to will against My pronouncement…."

Or maybe this to Peter:

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice"

or

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."

Sounds a little silly when we look at it logically doesn’t it? Yet this IS the contention of those who believe in "free will." Maybe Peter will, but then again maybe Peter won’t, NOT EVEN GOD KNOWS FOR SURE. Almost sounds like blasphemy, doesn’t it? It is blasphemy.

You see soleil, God uses our stupid wisdom to show us our folly...

Before the conversion Peter thought he possessed free will:

"Peter answered and said unto Him, Though all men shall be offended because of you, YET WILL I NEVER BE OFFENDED" (Matt. 26:33).

Famous last words...

Jesus responded that Peter had no more freedom of the will to stick by such a statement than a donkey:

"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Ver. 34).

Peter again responds from the pinnacle of his presumed free will and CORRECTS Jesus to His face:

"Peter said unto Him, Though I should DIE WITH THEE, YET WILL I NOT DENY THEE. Likewise also said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver. 35).

And the rest is history...

But guess who was right in the end? Did puny man have free will?

When Peter was confronted the third time we read this:

"Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b). Free will? Where? Give it up.

What about all of the other disciples who also thought they possessed this power of free will and self-determinism?

...Remember they said...

"Though I should DIE WITH THEE...said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver. 35).

Getting the hang of it right? You know what happens next (just like Jesus that very day)...

"But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED" (Matt. 26:56).

Always look carefully when the word "will" is used...

Was it Eve’s will from the beginning ("free" or otherwise), that she would eat the forbidden fruit? No, it wasn’t. Let’s read it:

"Now the serpent was more subtle [cunning] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made[God made this serpent more subtle]. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, Ye [you and your husband] shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Eve was not yet deceived: she was not as yet caused to disobey God. She set the serpent straight by telling him that his statement wasn’t completely true. They could eat of all of the fruit in the garden EXCEPT ONE. Eve was okay with that commandment from God. Well why did she then eat of the forbidden fruit? WHAT CHANGED?

Did Eve’s "heart" change? No, she had the same heart she was created with (remeber, I quoted myself earlier)

Did Eve’s "mind" change? Yes it did.

Did Eve’s "will" change? Yes, of course it did.

Now for the "Million dollar question." WHAT changed Eve’s mind and will? Even though Eve had a deceitful heart, there was something else that CAUSED her to change her mind and her will regarding the forbidden fruit. The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will. Eve did not "freely" will to sin. Her choice to sin was not "free" from an external cause. IT WAS CAUSED, and when something is CAUSED to happen, it could not have been "free" to NOT HAPPEN. Am I going too fast for anyone?

"But I fear, lest by any means, AS the serpent BEGUILED [Gk: ‘DECEIVED’] Eve through HIS subtlety [craftiness]…" (II Cor. 11:3).

Wow did you just see that!!

Here, I'll quote myself again...

"...Now the serpent was more subtle [cunning] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made[God made this serpent more subtle].

Paul told us that the serpent decieved Eve through his subtlety and who MADE the serpent subtle?

BINGO!

"...the Lord God had MADE..."

In short... Eve had to be decieved in order to sin (the serpent had to be there), she could not do it of her own will...

It was God's plan all along...

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] (Tim. 4:9-10)
[FONT=&quot]
Amen to that...

[/FONT]Free will? FREE will? FREE WILL? Where? If you still believe man has a will that is "free" from external and internal causes, beyond his control, then your arguments are not with me, but with God’s Word.

 

[soleil10]

Look how both were MADE by God

Yes we were made in God's image

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor.

15:45-46).

45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[a] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit

Understand now... Most Bibles do not do favour to the true saying...

"And saying is God, Make WILL WE [a continuing action] humanity in Our image…"
and... "And CREATING [a continuing action] is God humanity in His image" (Gen. 1:26a & 27a Concordant Literal Old Testament),
<--(Check out the Concordant Literal Old Testament)
You mistake me (I thought I was clear?). Anyhow I was reffering to:
"...because as He IS, SO ARE WE in the world." (I John 4:17).

Yes God created us

Free will contradicts foreknowledge...
I said I will prove that even Christ's own disciples rejected him (though only for a while...)
Can we believe that Jesus could have told His disciples the following:
"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night"
or...
"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night, but then again, maybe not all of you will be offended seeing that all of you have a free will to will against My pronouncement…."
Or maybe this to Peter:
"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice"

or
"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."
Sounds a little silly when we look at it logically doesn’t it? Yet this IS the contention of those who believe in "free will." Maybe Peter will, but then again maybe Peter won’t, NOT EVEN GOD KNOWS FOR SURE. Almost sounds like blasphemy, doesn’t it? It is blasphemy.

Jesus was very sensitive and could see people' heart and level of faith, especially those so close to him. He knew how much he could trust them.

Often we can sense who we can trust based on previous experiences.

You see soleil, God uses our stupid wisdom to show us our folly...Before the conversion Peter thought he possessed free will:
"Peter answered and said unto Him, Though all men shall be offended because of you, YET WILL I NEVER BE OFFENDED" (Matt. 26:33).

Often we break our promises. Some people are more trustworthy than others. Our fallen nature is definitally a problem. Our free will has been weakened by the human fall and our previous bad decisions. To come back to God takes effort. When Peter faith became stronger, his actions changed.

Famous last words.

..
Jesus responded that Peter had no more freedom of the will to stick by such a statement than a donkey:
"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Ver. 34).
Peter again responds from the pinnacle of his presumed free will and CORRECTS Jesus to His face:
"Peter said unto Him, Though I should DIE WITH THEE, YET WILL I NOT DENY THEE. Likewise also said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver. 35).
And the rest is history...
But guess who was right in the end? Did puny man have free will?
When Peter was confronted the third time we read this:
"Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b). Free will? Where? Give it up.

God has been very disappointed by man since the human fall. We have two masters and are slave to sin. It took 4000 biblical years to prepare for the Messiah to come because of men's failure.
You are interpreting our fallen nature as a lack of free will. True Love cant exist without free will

What about all of the other disciples who also thought they possessed this power of free will and self-determinism?

...Remember they said...
"Though I should DIE WITH THEE...said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver.35).
Getting the hang of it right? You know what happens next (just like Jesus that very day)...
"But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED" (Matt. 26:56).

The thief on the right of God was the only one that had faith in Jesus that day. Jesus needed at least one person to believe in him. God was heartbroken by the crucifixion. He knew that humanity will have to wait for many year until his kingdom can be established.
Upon Jesus resurrection and the pentecost, his disciples gain a much stronger faith and became reliable disciples.

Always look carefully when the word "will" is used...

Was it Eve’s will from the beginning ("free" or otherwise), that she would eat the forbidden fruit? No, it wasn’t. Let’s read it:
"Now the serpent was more subtle [cunning] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made[God made this serpent more subtle]. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, Ye [you and your husband] shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
Eve was not yet deceived: she was not as yet caused to disobey God. She set the serpent straight by telling him that his statement wasn’t completely true. They could eat of all of the fruit in the garden EXCEPT ONE. Eve was okay with that commandment from God. Well why did she then eat of the forbidden fruit? WHAT CHANGED?
Did Eve’s "heart" change? No, she had the same heart she was created with (remeber, I quoted myself earlier)
Did Eve’s "mind" change? Yes it did.
Did Eve’s "will" change? Yes, of course it did.
Now for the "Million dollar question." WHAT changed Eve’s mind and will? Even though Eve had a deceitful heart, there was something else that CAUSED her to change her mind and her will regarding the forbidden fruit.

I understand what happened in the process of the fall with lucifer, then Eve, then Adam. That would take a whole new post

The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will. Eve did not "freely" will to sin. Her choice to sin was not "free" from an external cause. IT WAS CAUSED, and when something is CAUSED to happen, it could not have been "free" to NOT HAPPEN. Am I going too fast for anyone?

"But I fear, lest by any means, AS the serpent BEGUILED [Gk: ‘DECEIVED’] Eve through HIS subtlety [craftiness]…" (II Cor. 11:3).
Wow did you just see that!!
Here, I'll quote myself again...
Paul told us that the serpent decieved Eve through his subtlety and who MADE the serpent subtle?

God gave Adam and Eve a commandement in order to overcome the desire of the fruit.
What fruit would be so desirable that they would be ready to die for it ?
The commandement was there to protect them.
Why was lucifer so upset about with God that he left his position as a teacher who knew Gods will ?
Why did he go after Eve first ?
Why did Eve and then Adam put Lucifer in postition of authority over them
and disconnected from God ?

BINGO!
"...the Lord God had MADE..."
In short... Eve had to be decieved in order to sin (the serpent had to be there), she could not do it of her own will...

It was God's plan all along...
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] (Tim. 4:9-10)
[FONT=&quot]Amen to that...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So God created us as puppets that will fail so we can be saved. It does not make any sense. [/FONT]
Azure, once again

Why did God create the world, what was his motivation, why did he create humans, for what purpose,?

What happened in the garden with our first ancestors, what where the consequences on us, why was then religion needed, what happened during the 4000 years of the old testament to prepare for Jesus ?

Our fallen nature gives you the impression that we lost our free will. There is some truth to that. There is a war inside if us between good and evil. Often evil win because instead of the kingdom of God on earth we are experiencing hell n earth.

Would a God of Love create children without free will.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

Free will? FREE will? FREE WILL? Where? If you still believe man has a will that is "free" from external and internal causes, beyond his control, then your arguments are not with me, but with God’s Word.

It is not easy to go in detail. I have to brush through it. My arguments are still with you, not with God.

 

[Azure24]

Hello again soleil, you say many things... but where is the proof?

I had this conversation many a time in the past in this forum, and yet, not one, NOT ONE person has shown me proof!!

I've also notice you have left somethings out which I had said...

The judgment by fire?

We cannot saved ourselves?

All will be saved?

and many other points, please quote all my points (like I have done you, and not some of them)

and if what you say is true show me (use references) because what you say is not coming out from the scriptures but heresy from the church...

(NOTE: controversial) I am not a Christian, many churches do not teach God's word...

...and remember...

"...THE DEVIL, and SATAN [Heb: Adversary], which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD and he was cast out into THE EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev. 12:9).

It only took Adam and Eve to sin for the WHOLE WORLD to sin, therefore it will take only Christ not to sin for the WHOLE WORLD not to sin...

"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying For even as, through the disobedience of the one man [Adam], the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One [Christ], the many shall be constituted just" (Rom. 5:18-19).

But how?

"Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29)

Do we take away our own sin's? No the Lamb (Christ) does...

twice!!

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant [but the WORLD is ignorant and deceived -- God created a special creature to accomplish this very purpose, Rev. 12:9] of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until [remember there are ‘seasons’?] The fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED [how so, I thought they have to ‘turn’ from their wickedness and sins, Who will ‘turn’ them?] As it is written, There shall come out of Zion The Deliverer, and shall TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS [’evil ways’ Ezek. 33:11] from Jacob [that’s Israel]: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS (Rom 11:25-27) [it will be pretty hard to torture people for all eternity for sins that they NO LONGER HAVE!!!]

Has God not power over his own children?

Why...

"...Has not the Potter [God] power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto DISHONOUR?" (Rom. 9:21).

Well?

Only theologians believe that vessels of "dishonor" malfunction, when in reality they were designed by their Creator for the very PURPOSE of malfunctioning. A malfunctioning, carnal-minded, God-hating, immoral, human slob, is of great value to God. Paul was just such a person before God called him out of Babylon the Great. And now, PAUL IS GREAT! Marvel of marvels, the things that God can do with dung.

Yes we were made in God's image

We are NOT in God's image...

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).


"If we say that we have NO sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8).


Does God sin? How can you say such a thing? How can we be then made in his image?


Are you deceiving yourself?


"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[a] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit

"living being" is not the same as "life-giving spirit"

You should know that...

As, always. Proof...

"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]…" (I Cor. 15:44).

"Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY…" (Phil. 3:21).

Here is how GOD created Adam and Eve:

"For the creature was made SUBJECT to VANITY [King James Margin: "futility"], NOT WILLINGLY, but by REASON of HIM [God] Who has subjected [Gk: ‘subjects’—aorist tense—subjecting is still going on] the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

In Dante’s inferno, "all hope is gone…," but in God’s realm He subjects the entire creation "…in HOPE,"

God willfully, wantingly, knowingly, purposely, and wisely, created mankind "subject to vanity," subject to failure, but beyond the failure, God also subjects the same in "hope." Once again, contrary to all orthodox doctrine, there is hope for all of God’s carnal-minded, God-hating people on planet Earth. God Himself says so, in the same breath: "because the creature itself [the same creation that God subjects to vanity, futility, failure, and carnal-minded hatred against God] also shall be [ah, did you catch that? ‘shall be’], delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21). Do you believe the Scriptures? Really—what about this one?

And so God, "made the creature subject to vanity"—failure, but later in mankind’s development, the creature "shall be"— [future tense]… shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption." Ah yes, God created them in a condition of "bondage" and "corruption," and therefore not "immortal" as is taught, but rather in "bondage of corruption." But thanks to God, in the resurrection of the dead, ‘…this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality’ (I Cor. 15:54).

Yes, of course, first comes the PHYSICAL (death), and then the SPIRITUAL (life). There it is—the hope of all humanity. Corruption and mortality (the physical first) must put on incorruption and immortality [the afterward spiritual).

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will [Did you notice 'will'] be made alive. But each in his own turn [it will not happen all at once, but in turns]: Christ, the firstfruits [It is Christ first]; then, when he comes, those who belong to him [the followers of Christ are second]. Then the end will come [the end of what? The end of the ages...], when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [Christ will reign on earth until dominion, authority and power are defeated] The last enemy to be destroyed is death [There is no life after death! Death is only defeated at this moment]. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Cor 15:22-28)

Why...

"Because He [God] has appointed A DAY, in which He will judge the world [how?]IN RIGHTEOUSNESS[eternal torture is NOT righteousness] by THAT MAN Whom He has ordained [‘For the Father judges no man, but has committed ALL judgment unto the Son,’ John 5:22]; whereof He has given ASSURANCE unto ALL MEN [Gee, could this ‘assurance to ALL men … in the WORLD" be the same as the ‘hope for all creatures in ALL CREATION’ that we just read about in Rom. 8:20? And just how can there be hope and assurance for all these lost, unrepentant, unbelievers of the world? Read on…], in that He has raised Him [Jesus] from the dead" (Acts 17:31).

Often we can sense who we can trust based on previous experiences.

soleil. What did Jesus say?

"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Matt 26:34)

Jesus said this with such accuracy! "Before (not after but before) the cock crow"

"YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" Not once, not twice, but three times!! The exact amount of times! No soleil we cannot do this!!

"Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b).

Did you see that? "immediately" after Peter denies him the "cock crew"!!

This cannot be done without foreknowledge!!

Notice Peter was so angry he "Then began ...to curse and to swear..."

Look at the difference between before and after...

Before:

"YET WILL I NEVER BE OFFENDED" (Matt. 26:33)

After:

"...Then began he [Peter] to CURSE and to SWEAR..."(Matt 26:64)

Gee, soleil...Peter sure does sounds offended to me. Don't you think?

...Our free will has been weakened by the human fall and our previous bad decisions...

We have been weakened by the human fall? Oh, really?

Here is a description when God made man (i.e. BEFORE the fall)...

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by REASON OF HIM [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!


Someone hasn't been reading the scriptures properly... God made the creature (us) "SUBJECT TO VANITY" and the rest in blue...


"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19)


Who made us? Who made our heart?


Let's see how Eve sinned...


Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart/vanity], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).


Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

...God has been very disappointed by man since the human fall. We have two masters and are slave to sin...

God has been very disappointed? (It hurts me reading this...)

So your saying God created mankind. We malfunctioned. And as a back up plan God created a Saviour?

I ask you this did God change his plan along the way? Well, does God change?

"...I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT..."(Malachi 3:6)

"But He [God] is in ONE MIND, and who can TURN HIM?"(Job 23:13)

Oh, that's right puny man can turn him (with his own free will)...

"Jesus Christ is the SAME yesterday, and today, and for ever [Greek: ‘for (into) the eons also’]" (Heb. 13:8).

...It took 4000 biblical years to prepare for the Messiah to come because of men's failure...

...Messiah to come because of man's failure?

Is this quote true? Let's ask...

"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END, the FIRST and the LAST " (Rev. 22:13).

and...

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

Christ (the Messiah) was the FIRST not AFTER man's failure...

Where did man come from and where will he go when he dies...

"...for DUST YOU ARE and to dust YOU WILL RETURN."(Gen 3:19)

And what about Christ?

"And NO MAN has ascended into HEAVEN, but HE that CAME down from HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13).

You are interpreting our fallen nature as a lack of free will.

"For of a truth against Thy Holy Child JESUS Whom THOU [God the Father] hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel [God anointed them ALL for this purpose], were gathered together, For to do whatsoever THY HAND [the very HAND of God], AND thy counsel [God works ALL according to His ‘counsel’ Eph. 1:11] determined BEFORE [God predestinated His Son’s crucifixion before the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8] to be done" (Acts 4:26-28).

Would a God of Love create children without free will.

Read this...

"…God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe A LIE" (II Thes. 2:11).

 

[Azure24]

...You are interpreting our fallen nature as a lack of free will. True Love cant exist without free will...

You don't know how many times I have heard this.

God is not like you and I God does not force anyone to do anything. We ALL will love God becuase we WANT to...

Why?

"Yet the grace of our Lord OVERWHELMS, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." (I Tim. 1:14).

The Christian Clergy just can’t comprehend this verse. The grace of God "overwhelms". Many clergymen fear that people will use grace for a license to sin if they teach it. The reality of it is, that people stop sinning because the grace of God overwhelms them. Grace is power!

Put it this way. It is our nature to sin (we don't do it on purpose), therefore in God's grace (spritual nature) we will not sin (we don't do it on purpose).

As it is natural to sin (even those that know nothing of God and his word sin reguardless). It will be the same not to sin...

The thief on the right of God was the only one that had faith in Jesus that day. Jesus needed at least one person to believe in him. God was heartbroken by the crucifixion. He knew that humanity will have to wait for many year until his kingdom can be established.
Upon Jesus resurrection and the pentecost, his disciples gain a much stronger faith and became reliable disciples.

"ALL these things spake Jesus unto the MULTITUDES IN PARABLES; and without a parable spake He NOT unto them: That it might be fulfilled [FULFILLED, not NULLIFIED, as Matt Crouch contends] which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open My mouth in PARABLES; I will utter these things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Then Jesus sent the multitude AWAY, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, DECLARE UNTO US the parable of the tares of the field. He said and answered unto them [the disciples only] ..." (Matt. 13:34-37).

"And He [Jesus] called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." Even though Jesus said, "hear and understand" neither the multitude NOR the disciples understood! Once again: "Then answered Peter and said unto Him; Declare [Greek: decipher, explain] UNTO US THIS PARABLE" (Ver. 15).

How did Jesus answer? Why he then said ANOTHER parable...

"ANOTHER parable put He [Jesus] forth unto them..." (Matt. 13:24)

"ANOTHER parable put He forth unto them..." (Ver. 31).

"ANOTHER parable spake He unto them..." (Ver. 33).

Jesus answered with a parable within a parable. How could they then understand?

"And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him [and why did they ‘ask Him?’ because they did not know or understand His parables] the parable… And he said unto them, Know you NOT this parable? [Why of course they did not know this parable] and how then will ye know all parables?" (Mark 4:10 & 13).

To know "all parables," they needed to know "this parable."

In other words if you know one parable you know them all...

Now there were many who did believe that Jesus was a man sent from God, and they followed Him. But why? Mostly because of His miracles and healings. They were taken in by His miraculous works. On one occasion Jesus said the multitudes were more interested in the miraculous bread that filled their belly rather than any spiritual food they could have received. But, just as quick as many were to follow Jesus, likewise, many quickly turned from Him. When Jesus told them that, "the flesh profits NOTHING" and "the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT" (John 6:63), they decided they had enough of this Man: "From that time MANY of His disciples went back, and walked NO MORE with Him" (John 6:66).

How did they (the Apostles) then believe?

"Then opened He their UNDERSTANDING, that they might UNDERSTAND the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45)


By posting here I cannot make you understand the scriptures, no only God can do that...


For three and one-half years Jesus promised that some day His apostles would know the truth. But clear to the end of three and one-half years of learning at the feet of Jesus, the Apostles did not yet understand His teaching, purpose or plan. One day they were blind to these truths, and the next they understood. How is that possible?

"Consider what I say: and the Lord give you UNDERSTANDING in all things" (II Tim. 2:7).

It was God who made them understands these things...

We have clearly seen that Jesus kept the real meaning and truths of His teaching from the masses, the church leaders, His disciples and even His apostles. Late in Christ’s ministry, we are told that:

"And they understood NONE OF THESE THINGS: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the THINGS WHICH WERE SPOKEN" (Luke 18:34).

But after His resurrection, Luke tells us that:

"THEN opened He their understanding, that they might understand THE SCRIPTURES: (Luke 24:45).

Maybe, TODAY, will be the day that God begins to "open your understanding of the Scriptures."

I understand what happened in the process of the fall with lucifer, then Eve, then Adam. That would take a whole new post

I will await your next post...

"...The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life FROM the creation of the world.."(Revelation 17:8)

...Why was lucifer so upset about with God that he left his position as a teacher who knew Gods will ?

Lucifer was a teacher? Do you know who Lucifer is?

"All they shall speak and say unto thee [king of Babylon], Art thou [king of Babylon] also become weak as we? Art thou [king of Babylon] become like unto us [mere mortals and not gods from heaven]. Thy [king of Babylon] pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy [king of Babylon] viols: the worm is spread under thee [king of Babylon], and the worms cover thee [king of Babylon]. How art thou [king of Babylon] fallen from heaven, O Lucifer…"?!?

What is this? How can, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon (made reference to eight time in two sentences), suddenly turn into "Lucifer" in the middle of a sentence? And where are we ever told that "Lucifer" is a proper name for Satan?
From my American Heritage College Dictionary, Lucifer n. 1. The archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt of the angels; Satan. < OE, morning star, Lucifer < Latin Lucifer < lucifer, light-bringer: lux, luc-, light" (page 821).
The very next word under "Lucifer" is, luciferase n. An enzyme that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin." Hmmmmm. What have we here? "Lucifer + in."
And the word that follows "luciferase" in this same dictionary is: " luciferin n. A chemical substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as fireflies that produce a bluish-green light when oxidized. [Latin Lucifer, light-bringing; see LUCIFER + -IN.]" (page. 821).
There it is! Lucifer is the ‘chemical bioluminescence’ in the cells of FIREFLIES! WOW! With that in mind, we should all sleep better tonight.

just who was it that fell from heaven, and does the phrase "fallen from heaven" prove that this person had to have been in God’s throne room, or at least in interstellar space in order for him to "fall from heaven" therefore proving that this must be a spirit being only? No, of course not. It is a figure of speech. Here is proof from none other than Jesus:

"And you, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shall be thrust down [from heaven] to hell [Gk: hades (not eternal damnation)]" (Luke 10:15).

Just why do you think Satan was once an "angel of Light?"

could it be that...

"And no marvel; for Satan HIMSELF is TRANSFORMED into an angel of light" (II Cor. 11:14).

Satan is NOT an angel of light, neither has he ever been! It is the "false apostles, DECEITFUL workers" Ver 13, that DECEIVE people into believing lies. Satan appears as an angel of light to the world; he is transformed into an angel of light, but it is an ILLUSSION, it is NOT TRUE, it is a DECEPTION!

"Ye [Gk: ‘all’ of you] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING"(John 8:44-45)

Did you just read that? Did it say the devil was a murderer when he fell from Heaven? No but "THE BEGINNING"...

Why did he go after Eve first ?
Why did Eve and then Adam put Lucifer in postition of authority over them
and disconnected from God ?

Why? Tell me?

...So God created us as puppets that will fail so we can be saved. It does not make any sense...

Of course...

"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a MAN then UNDERSTAND HIS OWN WAY?(Prov. 20:24).

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

Why did God create the world, what was his motivation, why did he create humans, for what purpose,?

I thought I answered this...

"And saying is God, Make WILL WE [a continuing action] humanity in Our image…"

and...

"And CREATING [a continuing action] is God humanity in His image" (Gen. 1:26a & 27a Concordant Literal Old Testament),

What about the murderers? And or the other vile people?

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find FAULT? For who has RESISTED His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

and...

"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).

God created evil!!

“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace [good], and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45:6-7).

and

“…shall there be EVIL [Heb: ra—‘bad, evil’] in a city, and the Lord has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

but why? Why did God create Evil?

"And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. And Joseph said unto them, Fear not, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Gen. 50:18-20).

Why did God create evil? He created evil to bring about good!!

 

[soleil10]

You don't know how many times I have heard this.God is not like you and I God does not force anyone to do anything. We ALL will love God because we WANT to...Why?
"Yet the grace of our Lord OVERWHELMS, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." (I Tim. 1:14).
The Christian Clergy just can’t comprehend this verse. The grace of God "overwhelms". Many clergymen fear that people will use grace for a license to sin if they teach it. The reality of it is, that people stop sinning because the grace of God overwhelms them. Grace is power!
Put it this way. It is our nature to sin (we don't do it on purpose), therefore in God's grace (spritual nature) we will not sin (we don't do it on purpose).
As it is natural to sin (even those that know nothing of God and his word sin regardless). It will be the same not to sin...

Azure, after the human fall our spirit and body have been in conflict. We answer two masters and struggle. If A&E did not fall, they would have grow to a level of direct dominion with God. Jesus reached that level. As an example when an husband and wife are totally united, they are in total harmony and hurting the other would be hurting themselves. It is the same in our relationship with God.

When you wrote "It will be the same not to sin" you spoke about the future. God's grace and unconditional love allow us to come back to him but it takes our effort. If there was no effort required from our side to reject Satan, then the world would have been restored long ago but Satan would exist for ever. There owuld always be two Gods, one of Goodnwss and one of Evil.
A God of love cannot create evil to begin with.

"ALL these things Jesus spoke unto the MULTITUDES IN PARABLES; and without a parable spake He NOT unto them: That it might be fulfilled [FULFILLED, not NULLIFIED, as Matt Crouch contends] which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open My mouth in PARABLES; I will utter these things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Then Jesus sent the multitude AWAY, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, DECLARE UNTO US the parable of the tares of the field. He said and answered unto them [the disciples only] ..." (Matt.

"And He [Jesus] called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." Even though Jesus said, "hear and understand" neither the multitude NOR the disciples understood! Once again: "Then answered Peter and said unto Him; Declare [Greek: decipher, explain] UNTO US THIS PARABLE" (Ver. 15).
How did Jesus answer? Why he then said ANOTHER parable...
"ANOTHER parable put He [Jesus] forth unto them..." (Matt. 13:24)
"ANOTHER parable put He forth unto them..." (Ver. 31).
"ANOTHER parable spake He unto them..." (Ver. 33).
Jesus answered with a parable within a parable. How could they then understand?
"And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him [and why did they ‘ask Him?’ because they did not know or understand His parables] the parable… And he said unto them, Know you NOT this parable? [Why of course they did not know this parable] and how then will ye know all parables?" (Mark 4:10 & 13).
To know "all parables," they needed to know "this parable."
In other words if you know one parable you know them all...
Now there were many who did believe that Jesus was a man sent from God, and they followed Him. But why? Mostly because of His miracles and healings. They were taken in by His miraculous works. On one occasion Jesus said the multitudes were more interested in the miraculous bread that filled their belly rather than any spiritual food they could have received. But, just as quick as many were to follow Jesus, likewise, many quickly turned from Him. When Jesus told them that, "the flesh profits NOTHING" and "the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT" (John 6:63), they decided they had enough of this Man: "From that time MANY of His disciples went back, and walked NO MORE with Him" (John 6:66).
How did they (the Apostles) then believe?
"Then opened He their UNDERSTANDING, that they might UNDERSTAND the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45)
By posting here I cannot make you understand the scriptures, no only God can do that...
For three and one-half years Jesus promised that some day His apostles would know the truth. But clear to the end of three and one-half years of learning at the feet of Jesus, the Apostles did not yet understand His teaching, purpose or plan. One day they were blind to these truths, and the next they understood. How is that possible?
"Consider what I say: and the Lord give you UNDERSTANDING in all things" (II Tim. 2:7).
It was God who made them understands these things...
We have clearly seen that Jesus kept the real meaning and truths of His teaching from the masses, the church leaders, His disciples and even His apostles. Late in Christ’s ministry, we are told that:
"And they understood NONE OF THESE THINGS: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the THINGS WHICH WERE SPOKEN" (Luke 18:34).
But after His resurrection, Luke tells us that:
"THEN opened He their understanding, that they might understand THE SCRIPTURES: (Luke 24:45).
Maybe, TODAY, will be the day that God begins to "open your understanding of the Scriptures."

Are you saying that God decides who understand and who does ot understand and when ?
Jesus tried deseperately to convince people especially those that were prepared to believe in him. They did not, After he resurected, his followers who had deserted him regained their faith.
In God' s providence we see that Satan attacks first always and people of God suffer. God uses their condition of faith and suffering to regain territory from Satan. God's providence has always progressed like this.

When God created the world, he had man in mind from the beginning. The cosmos is created to be in harmony with man and it even a reflection of man in the same way we are a reflection of God. As an example our physical body is 70% water which is he same as our planet.
Many people misunderstand forknowledge as some kind of predestination for man.

"...The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life FROM the creation of the world.."(Revelation 17:8)

This means that it is up to us to be written in the book of life

Lucifer was a teacher? Do you know who Lucifer is?

Yes but let me respond to the seocnd part of you post later