please, share your opinions

[reebon]

If God really is omniscient then my entire experience is almost superflous to God, right? Since God already knows what is gonna happen, no?

I read this quote that is attributed to Rumi... "There is a way between voice and presence where information flows. In disciplined silence it opens. With wandering talk it closes".

I was kinda hoping people would share with me what they feel Spirit is. And maybe get their opinion on what Rumi was talking about, if anything.

 

[c0de]

If God is Omniscient, and Omnipotent (and He is) then the universe is deterministic. If the universe is deterministic, then "time" becomes sort of an illusion (as everything has already happened).

So the "illusion" must exist in our perception of time (which we experience as moving forward slowly, moment by moment)... However, for an Infinite consciousness such as God, there are no such delays in "bandwidth"...

I suppose, for God, the universe looks like a multi-dimensional painting (that He painted Himself)... Where He can simultaneously see the past, the present and the "future"... And in this painting, we are just a series of characters... pieces of art...


p.s. Welcome 2 the forums

 

[Dream]

I was kinda hoping people would share with me what they feel Spirit is. And maybe get their opinion on what Rumi was talking about, if anything.

Hi, Reebon, spirit is a word we all use, but we all mean different things or at least we seem to. It is an atomic word, so I cannot break it down -- cannot tell you what it means. It is close to your heart, so in conversation it helps to leave this word as an algebraic X most of the time. If I describe it, I am describing you.

If I tell you its a mystery, to you this means I am a dreamer.
If to me its fabrication, you will say that I'm the fibber.
If I say it is a mirror, you might think I've no reflection.
The spirit must be left until your inspection.

 

[Abdullah]

Hi Reebon, wellcome!

God indeed knows all that is going to happen, but actions [that are yet to happen] for God are not 'superfluous' for they have not happened yet [knowing the future and things happening are two different things no?]; the fact that God allready knows what is going to happen does not render the actions 'boring' for Him iether, for God is not subject to the feelings of creation at all.

my two cents

Peace

 

[Sancho]

Rather than worrying about how I measure up to God's omnipotence, I think of God as the one who creates the illusion of my passing experiences --that is, every passing moment of reality I experience is a performance God is putting on just for me. The amazingly omnipotent accomplishment is to make each moment a performance for each person.

I believe Rumi has a lot to say about being aware of God's presence in the moment.

 

[Sancho]

As for spirit, it's really just a word like other words. If part of what you experience seems to align with what the word 'spirit' seems to denote, then you seem to understand it.
'Logos' is another word with a long history closely related to the way people use 'spirit'. Heraclitus, the gnostics, and the stoics, all have a lot to say about logos.
'Atman', as used in the Upanishads, also is similar to what a lot of people think of when they use the word spirit.

 

[Avi]

Hi c0de,

Can you explain what you mean by deteriministic ?

If God is Omniscient, and Omnipotent (and He is) then the universe is deterministic. If the universe is deterministic, then "time" becomes sort of an illusion (as everything has already happened).

I don't think you mean it in the same sense that Einstein did:

Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My own view of G-d is that G-d is a random number generator with built in biases (mathematical ones). I hope that does not sound atheistic, because I am Jewish.

Further, I think this concept is consistent with the notions of : 1) the existence of G-d, 2) the unity of G-d, and 3) G-d's non-corporealism (the number generator is not really a physical one ). (Incidentally, these are Maimonides first three Principles ! ).

 

[citizenzen]

I read this quote that is attributed to Rumi... "There is a way between voice and presence where information flows. In disciplined silence it opens. With wandering talk it closes".

People rely on their thoughts to lead them to wisdom and insight. But you cannot think your way to enlightenment. You have to rely on a part of your mind that is always present, but is lost behind the curtain of tumbling, obsessive thought.

"In disciplined silence it opens."

Meditation helps to slow our thoughts, focus our attention, and reveal the mind behind the veil of of our mental blather.

That's what I think Rumi (whoever he is) is saying.

As for the God thing, I think it can be a tremendous distraction to personalize God and speculate on His attributes. Imagine that you knew the answer to your question. How would that change what you would do or how you would live?

 

[Nick_A]

If God really is omniscient then my entire experience is almost superflous to God, right? Since God already knows what is gonna happen, no?

I read this quote that is attributed to Rumi... "There is a way between voice and presence where information flows. In disciplined silence it opens. With wandering talk it closes".

I was kinda hoping people would share with me what they feel Spirit is. And maybe get their opinion on what Rumi was talking about, if anything.

Everything in the universe is in constant change. Nothing remains the same. If this is true, why would you think any God would be concerned with results that don't exist. Existence is a process. God's will manifest through universal laws that drive this process we call creation. What then would be the value of your interpretations you define as experience? What has value is the objective quality of your life process.

The process of speaking is interesting. As Rumi suggests, we are capable of a certain state of "presence" However, as soon as we begin to speak so as to relate from it, we lose this presence and we close off. That is one reason for silent meditation. It also explains why religious debate is foolish. All one does is lose the essential religious experience for the sake of argument.

Spirit for me is the essential life force in a state of vibration within matter of relative densities

 

[nativeastral]

If I tell you its a mystery, to you this means I am a dreamer.
If to me its fabrication, you will say that I'm the fibber.
If I say it is a mirror, you might think I've no reflection.
The spirit must be left until your inspection.

ah we have a poet in the house!
there has been philosophical debates regarding the so called attributes of g#d, contradictions between omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly benevolent, paradoxes still being 'worked' out and speculated on by theologians and philosophers alike, as well as humble folk such as us who find it hard to reconcile such definitions in line with what we think of as g#d, or spirit, which l prefer to the [hackneyed] term g#d.

this is mainly because of anthropomorphism, a trait we find as humans difficult to disengage from, as well as our subjectivism and the need for most theists [christian anyways] to have a love for and personal relationship 'in the person' of the almighty who obviously has to be worthy of worship for us, is this arrogance?. or a realisation we too are a piece of the puzzle of divine emanation.

this is less so with islam who have strenuously emphasised obedience and 'g#d is greater' with absolutely nothing to do with anything contingent. this strong demarcation may well have been in reaction to and learning from the other main religions around at the time ie judeo-christian, gnostics and dualists.
There are athiest jews, in the sense of spinoza that god is nature, therefore in a sense more animistic, more inclusive.
Spinoza's God.
judaism has been on the earth longer so has had time and tolerance to include many different interpretations on g#d or spirit and as l see it santification is inherently ongoing.

l believe we all have an inner knowing,inner eye, and answer to our own questions given enough introspection, 'silence is the altar of g#d' [p.yogananda]. but you have to believe you are party to the holy. that your life is meaningful and meant to be.

yet as social animals there is strength and safety in numbers hence the preponderence and popularity in religions that inevitably become institutionalised that may eventually lead to an alienation from the very thing - eternal spirit- it set out to glorify, just my thoughts though.

 

[c0de]

there has been philosophical debates regarding the so called attributes of g#d, contradictions between omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly benevolent, paradoxes still being 'worked' out and speculated on by theologians and philosophers alike, as well as humble folk such as us who find it hard to reconcile such definitions in line with what we think of as g#d, or spirit, which l prefer to the [hackneyed] term g#d.

If we scrutinize the microscopic, there seems to be a contradiction between the benevolence of God and the fact that there is so much pain and suffering in the world. But in the macroscopic view, if the ultimate end that God has planned is good, and that good is infinite, then any finite pain can not be held as a "contradiction", but simply a method. This is also why I believe God is the only one who has the right to determine the "greater good" because He is the only one who can calculate such things as "pain" and "suffering" vs "reward" and "contentment"... My 2 cents anyway...

 

[nativeastral]

If we scrutinize the microscopic, there seems to be a contradiction between the benevolence of God and the fact that there is so much pain and suffering in the world. But in the macroscopic view, if the ultimate end that God has planned is good, and that good is infinite, then any finite pain can not be held as a "contradiction", but simply a method. This is also why I believe God is the only one who has the right to determine the "greater good" because He is the only one who can calculate such things as "pain" and "suffering" vs "reward" and "contentment"... My 2 cents anyway...

l agree c0de but we are but earthly beings striving for the spiritual and there is no way to coherently deal, even if only emotionally, with the 'reality' of the world [talking of the negative things around us] unless one does rationalize it in the way you do 'if the ultimate end that G#d has planned is good'. So lets pass the buck on to the the big man..cos it was His Will? just 'gladly' accept all the evil 'individuals' and 'natural' disasters as 'meant to be' and 'pre ordained' so our microscopic will to be free to do or not to do ain't worth a cent in the macroscopic scheme of things?

as finite humans on a finite earth [lets take that as a possible theory of existence in the here and now and forget about afterlife rewards on an individual microscopic scale] we as humanity do determine the greater good and we do have stewardship for generations to come, a responsibility to be 'careful what we ask for' or do you think we have no power within [microscopic] to change the world [sounds like song!] seen as it is infinitely inscribed and ascribed and no room to manoeuver?

 

[c0de]

do you think we have no power within [microscopic] to change the world [sounds like song!] seen as it is infinitely inscribed and ascribed and no room to manoeuver?

As far as my screwed up understanding goes: Life/Universe is like a fractal... (as opposed to a "box of chocolates" lol) i.e. it is self similar at all levels. So God's absolute control exists not just at the macroscopic, but the micro as well.

As for the power to change the world... well, according to this view, even if we have such power, it was given by God, and if we use it, it was according to His will, so ultimately, its not really we who are changing anything... the world will turn without me, just the same.

I hope you dont feel that I am proposing a sit back and do nothing approach (because I am not)... But the difference is that I believe a person should do good just because he is commanded to do good... and not with the intentions (or delusions) of changing the world... most such efforts to "change the world" usually end up in revolutions and bloodshed anyway...

but that is just my opinion... most will disagree.

 

[nativeastral]

If God really is omniscient then my entire experience is almost superflous to God, right? Since God already knows what is gonna happen, no?

I read this quote that is attributed to Rumi... "There is a way between voice and presence where information flows. In disciplined silence it opens. With wandering talk it closes".

I was kinda hoping people would share with me what they feel Spirit is. And maybe get their opinion on what Rumi was talking about, if anything.

sorry reebon for my 'wandering talk'; it was said there were two books, the book of nature and the book of g#d, rumi as mystic/poet dissolved that distinction, transcendence and immanence; a feedback loop of information.

c0de hi
[change the world, an orange juice song] l did mean ourselves, our actions [free will anyone?], therefore not complete determinism that you seem to be saying, so no chance, indeterminism, random events? s'ok no need to answer as you expressed yourself well.

lol box of chocolates with half hard half soft centres that end in unrecyclable packaging cluttering up the biosphere..no not a Good analogy.

fractuals l dig a little more and illustrates POV, does that mean we are all infinite fractual entites [like the cells in our body are] or is that reserved only for the infinite and uncreated? of course the world will turn but the butterfly still has effect'''

see that wandering talk can close!

 

[c0de]

fractuals l dig a little more and illustrates POV, does that mean we are all infinite fractual entites [like the cells in our body are] or is that reserved only for the infinite and uncreated? '

I guess... you can say we are just reflections of infinity...

...

see that wandering talk can close!

man im not even tryin to make sense anymore (lol)

 

[Avi]

I am sorry guys, I must have gotten lost on the way to the theology sub-forum, but is the "figment of my own imagination" sub-forum

 

[~estrella~]

The process of speaking is interesting. As Rumi suggests, we are capable of a certain state of "presence" However, as soon as we begin to speak so as to relate from it, we lose this presence and we close off. That is one reason for silent meditation. It also explains why religious debate is foolish. All one does is lose the essential religious experience for the sake of argument.

religious debate is not that foolish, it may be the way to reach some understanding in order to be able to continue. It is the same with the question in the beginning, God does not care about that all, he knows already all. I woudl say like Aurobindo says, God is also a "personal" being, and it is impossible for that "Person" not to have "personal relationships" and it is immossible for the Divine Energy not to create, it is just the way it is...

Experience: yes I do have the experience that I am touched by some kind of spirit when words are able to shut down in the mind... but, we are here in the material world and in order to communicate at our Level of Consciousness, we must speak. So, there are parallel ways.

 

[citizenzen]

Experience: yes I do have the experience that I am touched by some kind of spirit when words are able to shut down in the mind... but, we are here in the material world and in order to communicate at our Level of Consciousness, we must speak. So, there are parallel ways.

You cannot experience the spirit by thinking your way there. That's one reason I have no time for the arguments over this verse vs. that verse.

When our mental dialogue "shuts down" it reveals our mind.

Our mind that has always been there.

 

[Nick_A]

You cannot experience the spirit by thinking your way there. That's one reason I have no time for the arguments over this verse vs. that verse.

When our mental dialogue "shuts down" it reveals our mind.

Our mind that has always been there.

Perhaps avoiding this revelation is why you need to argue so much.

 

[Netti-Netti]

religious debate is not that foolish, it may be the way to reach some understanding in order to be able to continue.

Hi Estrella

That sounds so very hypothetical. Why wouldn't taking the dog out for a walk accomplish the same thing?