A Jewish NDE

[path_of_one]

This is also a common theme I've noticed in othe NDEs, when in a life review, the person will discover that the things that he/she thought was important in his relationships paled in comparision to the things he believed had little impact.

I find that is an important point, and I think that is why in most major religions, one should work toward a wholesome consciousness. It isn't just about one's actions, but about intent and thought as well. I'm not sure how it ties into Judaism, but I imagine it would at some level, and it seems that following the law would be a path, in part, toward changing one's overall consciousness and awareness. Training one's consciousness through repetitively training one's actions. Maybe I'm off base there, but it seems to make sense to me.

I tend to not like any sort of evangelism that focuses on making people fearful; I tend to find such sorts manipulative. Fear is associated with shutting down higher cognitive functioning and is often used to control people. This is one of the reasons I tend to avoid a focus on hell and whatnot. I think there are better ways for people to learn than to be fearful, and people are far less likely to be manipulated by others if they are not afraid. I figure people should develop a sense of morality based on love and reason, not fear, but I suppose some people, perhaps, need an initial kick in the pants to start the journey. I really don't know what to make of such experiences; they are so different from my own.

 

[bananabrain]

I tend to not like any sort of evangelism that focuses on making people fearful; I tend to find such sorts manipulative. Fear is associated with shutting down higher cognitive functioning and is often used to control people. This is one of the reasons I tend to avoid a focus on hell and whatnot. I think there are better ways for people to learn than to be fearful, and people are far less likely to be manipulated by others if they are not afraid. I figure people should develop a sense of morality based on love and reason, not fear, but I suppose some people, perhaps, need an initial kick in the pants to start the journey. I really don't know what to make of such experiences; they are so different from my own.

this pretty much describes my objections not to kiruv in principle, but to the sort of organisations that are involved and specifically their hashkafa (worldview) - they tend to be, once you do a bit of digging, monolithic, intolerant, conformist and controlling: what i describe as "microsoft salafi judaism". it's all free smoked salmon bagels and speed-dating when they're trying to draw you in, but once you are in, it's all black hats and ask-your-rav-before-you-buy-bog-roll. drives me nuts. people go looking for an answer and they get one, but are told it's "the" answer. aaargh, weaselbeans.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Dondi]

I find that is an important point, and I think that is why in most major religions, one should work toward a wholesome consciousness. It isn't just about one's actions, but about intent and thought as well. I'm not sure how it ties into Judaism, but I imagine it would at some level, and it seems that following the law would be a path, in part, toward changing one's overall consciousness and awareness. Training one's consciousness through repetitively training one's actions. Maybe I'm off base there, but it seems to make sense to me.

I believe the law acts as a catylist. Fact is, many people don't like to have rules and regulations imposed upon them. It cramps their style, as it were. However, the intent of enforcement of the law is to get people to see the benefits of following the law that might not be apparent at first. Once people get the jist of the law, they are more willing to accomodate it.

Of course, the intent of the law is to learn to love God and to love others. Something doesn't become second nature unless it's practiced.

I tend to not like any sort of evangelism that focuses on making people fearful; I tend to find such sorts manipulative. Fear is associated with shutting down higher cognitive functioning and is often used to control people. This is one of the reasons I tend to avoid a focus on hell and whatnot. I think there are better ways for people to learn than to be fearful, and people are far less likely to be manipulated by others if they are not afraid. I figure people should develop a sense of morality based on love and reason, not fear, but I suppose some people, perhaps, need an initial kick in the pants to start the journey. I really don't know what to make of such experiences; they are so different from my own.

From a Jewish perspective, hell isn't so much a punishment as a means of remediation. As I understand it, the tour of duty in gehenom is no longer than twelve months, during which time the soul is purified before going on to gan eden, unless the soul is totally worthless not to merit gehenom.

For God to be just, there has to be judgment. I believe God is fair, but merciful, and that in the end no one will question His judgment. I find it hard to believe that He will let people off scot-free just for the sake of mercy. He clearly lays out the concept of blessing and curse in Deuteronomy 28.

 

[bananabrain]

From a Jewish perspective, hell isn't so much a punishment as a means of remediation. As I understand it, the tour of duty in gehenom is no longer than twelve months, during which time the soul is purified before going on to gan eden, unless the soul is totally worthless not to merit gehenom.

For God to be just, there has to be judgment. I believe God is fair, but merciful, and that in the end no one will question His judgment. I find it hard to believe that He will let people off scot-free just for the sake of mercy. He clearly lays out the concept of blessing and curse in Deuteronomy 28.

the trouble is that the vision described here is really very, very coercive. i believe that one should obey the Torah out of love and awe, not because you think you're going to be attacked by the evil spunk demons. that sort of thinking is, to my way of thinking, inconsistent with the sophistication of the sages.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Francis king]

I was interested to see this posting, so I followed the link and checked it out, and well...

I didn't see any videos, or photos, just read his blog.

My thoughts run like this...

if you are sick enough to be having visions- and fevers can do this- then you are generally not able to remember much- fleeting visions, the odd impression. It is true most NDE's feature symbols and figures from your faith, and yes, some people have horrible visions, but for his vision to be so sequential and so full of data suggests to me that he has elaborated somewhat.

I had bacterial meningitis once. It was so bad my legs went black from toe to hip. I had visions then, too- ghostly shapes came to stand around the bed, waiting for me to die. Nobody else could see them. The next thing I remember is a bright light, exactly the same light as I had seen before, when I was well, and conscious, and had a religious experience. All I can remember is the ghostly figures, and the bright lights, and then waking up a few days later. Thankfully with my legs still attached to my body.

so, I find this man's account unusual insofar as it contains so much data.

Kiruv? a new word for me, but yes, that's probably what it is.

 

[Postmaster]

Agreed.

To me, it speaks volumes on the merits of one's actions. However strict the moral code seems, it paints a very detailed picture on how we need to treat others. I wonder how often I've said or done something that seemed trivial to me, but meant a great deal to the other person, whether it was good or bad. This is also a common theme I've noticed in othe NDEs, when in a life review, the person will discover that the things that he/she thought was important in his relationships paled in comparision to the things he believed had little impact.

Very true!

 

[path_of_one]

the trouble is that the vision described here is really very, very coercive. i believe that one should obey the Torah out of love and awe, not because you think you're going to be attacked by the evil spunk demons. that sort of thinking is, to my way of thinking, inconsistent with the sophistication of the sages.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Yep, that's what I'm thinking. I'm not saying I think God lets everyone off scot-free, but isn't it sufficient to think God is just? For me, just knowing that I am before God constantly is enough to make me feel fairly awful for what I do without mindfulness. The pain I cause is enough to make me suffer for my sins, and I don't need some celestial stick of hell-fire to make me try to get my actions to grow closer to God's will.

I question methods like these because they prey upon people's worst qualities- their fears, their desires (for reward- the whole heaven thing), their tendencies to let the imagination carry them away with horrible ideas. It's a way of using the lower part of our nature to control us. These types of folks in any religion dangle the carrot out in front of us, tantalizing us with visions of some perfect world where everyone is rich and well-fed, and life is great or they threaten the whip-- they torment us with visions of physical torment.

Even when training horses, my wish is for them to obey out of love, out of joy in the mutual dance we do together. Even I give them some freedom and discipline them with a gentle, but firm hand, always without anger. Even I have compassion for their mistakes and their limitations. I don't want a horse to obey out of fear or out of desire for a treat. Either way, the horse is not ever truly obedient, and becomes dangerous, and I am merely an object to fear or a food dispenser.

I suppose I think- if I am that way with my horses, how much moreso God with me? My spiritual experience of God is such that I feel understood and forgiven for my mistakes, chastened for my sins, and that the point is to love God, not to see God as simply a means to an end (heaven).

 

[Dream]

I had bacterial meningitis once. It was so bad my legs went black from toe to hip. I had visions then, too- ghostly shapes came to stand around the bed, waiting for me to die. Nobody else could see them. The next thing I remember is a bright light, exactly the same light as I had seen before, when I was well, and conscious, and had a religious experience. All I can remember is the ghostly figures, and the bright lights, and then waking up a few days later. Thankfully with my legs still attached to my body.

Dang. That's an amazing recovery.

 

[holysmoke]

I would be curious to see if there's any pattern to good and bad n.d.e.s. by religious affiliation, i.e., do Jews have more good or bad n.d.e.'s than Christians or Muslims or Hindus or animists?

 

[Raksha]

Is this account consistent with an orthodox view of mitzvot, teshuva, tikunim, and the purification process of gehenom toward gan eden?

It's consistent, all right--WAY too consistent to be an actual NDE. It's consistent right down to the old superstitions about noctural emissions and Orthodox standards of modesty for women. I got halfway through and couldn't finish, because it's clearly a moralizing hellfire story in the Orthodox tradition. Not a real NDE whatsoever.

--Linda

 

[Raksha]

no, not for non-jews, kiruv ("indrawing") is just about convincing non-observant or assimilated jews to become religious.

BB,
Well, it had the complete opposite effect on this non-observant and assimilated Jew! It made me very grateful all over again that I am non-observant and assimilated. The similarities with fundamentalist Christian fear-mongering are an additional turn-off. As I said, I could only get halfway through it and then quit reading in disgust.

--Linda

 

[bananabrain]

linda,

my issue with kiruv is precisely this: it is in many cases the cause of sinat hinam (causeless hatred) by the alienation it produces within families and it is, at bottom, an essentially modern fundamentalist project, with which i cannot sympathise. i am all for jews being more jewish, but i don't think that imposing this absurd artscroll monolithic interpretation of yiddishkeit (and i use the term advisedly as there is little place in this world for sephardim) is the way to do so. you can't - and shouldn't - scare people into being more religious. and my view of klal yisrael is one of religious biodiversity - not one which can see no further than the yeshiva and the punctilious observance of the mitzvot.

b'shalom

bananabrain