Atlantis: did it exist?

[iBrian]

There has been speculation for centuries that the reference in Plato was to a real - and extrmeely advanced culture - that somehow disappeared from the map, the historical record, and human searches for it since.

I have to say that I find the whole argument that Atlantis was ever a physical place to be more something of an act of faith - a lot of speculation with nothing real behind it. Of course, references to Atlantis are also strong in Mysticism, which - in my opinion - gives it an equally questionable name. Namely, a recommendation that such mystics are more interested in marketing to people, than displaying any real spiritual truths.

But I stand to be corrected.

Was Atlantis a real place, or is it a metaphor - or is it simply a focus of a morality tale, too long interpreted literally?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Brian!

Thank you, I think, for this extra thread.

I had hoped to skirt the issue of Atlantis as such, for the reasons you mention. Even though it is mentioned by Plato, at least some scholars imply that he "doctored" his presentation for various reasons, not least politics and morality. The suggestion is that Plato fabricated a myth for his own purposes, or at least that is my personal impression of the summation.

http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~idixonmc/atlantis.html

This link is one I read this morning, and it draws from not only Plato, but others such as Francis Bacon and Edgar Cayce. When the paranormal and occult are drawn into the picture, it can create an attitude and atmosphere of doubt among those inclined to more logical explanations of things.

I did find a message board this morning, dating from 1997, discussing archeology in and around Bimini. One submission was from an individual who claimed to have assisted a researcher named Valentine in the late '60's to debunk the "Bimini road" hypothesis. I also later saw reference to a natural phenomenon in NE Ireland called the "Giant's Causeway." This still leaves other phenomena around Bimini unexplained.

In the past I looked into the Cousteau archives in an attempt to find info about the program I watched to no avail.

Other resources I found on the web showed what could have been stones that might have been worked (carved, rounded, squared, etc.), but they were not shown in place, like those I remember from Cousteau's program. I recall standing fluted columns.

There are suggestions from other researchers that pyramidal structures as well exist under water in Bimini, and associations are made connecting this with South American structures in Cuba and the Yucatan (Ancient Mayan culture), as well the Azores, various Mediterranean islands and Egypt.

Whether one wishes to imply Atlantis in the esoteric sense is at best irrelevent, in my opinion. My intent was to further demonstrate the much more capable abilities of our ancient forebears in construction, and everything that implies across several boundaries including culture and religion. Not unlike attributing spiritual connotations to the Pyramid at Giza, the structure exists, all else at this point is conjecture. Not that conjecture doesn't have its place in developing understanding. The structures exist in the waters off of Bimini, the esoteric connotations are only a form of conjecture as to why.

I would be greatly interested in anyone's further take in this direction, including any related archeology from elsewhere, either supporting or not.

Thanks.

 

[Avinash]

Was Atlantis a real place, or is it a metaphor - or is it simply a focus of a morality tale, too long interpreted literally?

Namaskar,

I saw a documentary some time ago about the ancient city of Akrotiri in the Minoan civilization (Mediteranian) that was destroyed by an eruption of the volcano Thera around 1450 BC (so at the time or just after the advent of Lord Krishna). The shape of the city seems to be very close to the description of Atlantis by Plato (according to this documentary).

What is the connection (if any) between the name Atlantis and the name of the Atlantic Ocean? Does anyone perhaps know this?


http://www.magicaljourneys.com/Santorini/santorini-interest-akrotiri.html

 

[neoxenos]

Something existed. This is a report I wrote up. Take everything with a grain of salt...
[See attachment.]

 

[iBrian]

some scholars imply that he "doctored" his presentation for various reasons, not least politics and morality.

Pretty much everything from the ancient world suffered this fate.

As for a real location - it's certainly not inconceivable that some prior model was used as an inspiration for the tale. Minoa has always been a favourite suggestion, but one of the main criteria is that it was supposed to be near the "Pillars of Hercules" - the Straits of Gibralter. Personally, if I were seeking a historical model for Atlantis I would also look towards the Scilly Isles - which originally served as a main stopping point by Mediterranean sailors, but later in large part disapeared under the waves due to rising sea levels. Really, though, to even look for a historical Atlantis in the first place is perhaps to move too much into literalism and fail to appreciate metaphor. Just 2c.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Avinash, and thank you for your post.

What is the connection (if any) between the name Atlantis and the name of the Atlantic Ocean? Does anyone perhaps know this?

I cannot speak of the origins of the names "Atlantis" and "Atlantic", but in going through the material I did find that the terms "atl" and "antis" are terms used in Central American cultures such as the Mayans. One that came to mind is the spear thrown with a stick called "atlatl."

And thank you for the link, the pictures are great!

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, neoxenos, and welcome to CR!

Something existed. This is a report I wrote up. Take everything with a grain of salt...
[See attachment.]

I read your attachment, quite interesting. While there are some points I would have some trouble with, other points are raised that have long intrigued me, such as the Piri Re'is map.

A point not considered concerning the tobacco/cocaine connection between Egypt and So. America is the efforts of Thor Heyrdahl with the Ra I and Ra II voyages. While this does not "prove" Atlantis, it does support early communication between those cultures, at a time when humans are traditionally not supposed to be capable of such feats of travel.

Thanks.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Brian!

Pretty much everything from the ancient world suffered this fate.

Yes, this is the bane of historians, not only then but now as well.

As for a real location - it's certainly not inconceivable that some prior model was used as an inspiration for the tale. Minoa has always been a favourite suggestion, but one of the main criteria is that it was supposed to be near the "Pillars of Hercules" - the Straits of Gibralter. Personally, if I were seeking a historical model for Atlantis I would also look towards the Scilly Isles - which originally served as a main stopping point by Mediterranean sailors, but later in large part disapeared under the waves due to rising sea levels.

I had not heard the Scilly Isles mentioned in this context before, certainly a consideration. It is not impossible that if this society/culture/nation existed, then what we are able to find (such as Akrotiri and Bimini) may only be satellite cities, not "downtown" Atlantis proper.

Really, though, to even look for a historical Atlantis in the first place is perhaps to move too much into literalism and fail to appreciate metaphor. Just 2c.

I appreciate this sentiment, but wasn't Troy found by chasing a "metaphor?"

 

[iBrian]

I appreciate this sentiment, but wasn't Troy found by chasing a "metaphor?"

Good reposte.

It's quite true that there is a general tendency to be dismissive of ancient peoples and their stories, and certainly we have been shown to do so at our peril (Pliny the Younger's observation of Pyroclastic Flows from Vesuvius is another classic example of classical commentary benig disregarded).

The trouble with Atlantis is that it is all so deeply entrenched in mysticism and speculation of the most imginative kind, that what we end up with seems so far removed from Plato's meagre descriptions.

Truly indeed myths are often imaginative fruit surrounding real seeds of truths - but I strongly suspect that any historical reality of what Atlantis may or may not have been like is gonig to be far far difference to the Edgar Cayce version.

As for the cocaine trade and Kontiki - yes, another example of how the achievements and ingenuity of our ancient ancestors are underestimated with impunity!

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Brian!

I strongly suspect that any historical reality of what Atlantis may or may not have been like is gonig to be far far difference to the Edgar Cayce version.

Absolutely agreed, which is why I was hoping to avoid the flakier side of the subject.

As for the cocaine trade and Kontiki - yes, another example of how the achievements and ingenuity of our ancient ancestors are underestimated with impunity!

I had thought to leave this one alone, but it opens the door further still to expand on the subject. Kon Tiki was Heyrdahl's third voyage, in a vessel of completely different construction, that sailed from somewhere in the South Pacific Islands to So. America. As has been pointed out by other scholars, because Heyrdahl did these things does not mean that the ancients did too. BUT, it does mean such journeys were possible! There is a group called the Polynesian Voyaging Society, and they have been sailing ocean going open outrigger canoes throughout the Pacific from Hawaii to New Zealand to Easter Island, without modern navigational equipment, and have been doing so on a regular basis since the late 1970's, and the last I checked they had only lost one man. The canoes are modelled on traditional Polynesian layouts and methods. Quite a worthy feat in my opinion, especially considering their forebears were doing the same a couple of thousand years before.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Columbus!
(BTW, this comment is not aimed at anybody in particular, it is a general rant at the machine)

 

[iBrian]

Well, well - look what the Spanish dragged in - another potential site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3766863.stm

The interpretation seems a little forced, bt it's interesting nonetheless.

 

[juantoo3]

Cool!

 

[juantoo3]

Does anybody have more than a cursory familiarity with the Phoenicians they might like to share?

 

[Pet Zepi]

Well......if it didn't,

it would certainly appear to now.

 

[iBrian]

Does anybody have more than a cursory familiarity with the Phoenicians they might like to share?

I know there was a book I was chasing up for a while - racking my brains here.

 

[IlluSionS667]

There is quite enough historical evidence that leads to the conclusion that there was a predeluvian civilisation, however it's all very controversial. A possible location would be Antarctica, that according to some scientists was not arctic during the last ice age. Atlantis would have been destroyed at the disaster that was linked to the end of the ice age. Scientists aren't sure what really causes the world to move between the ice ages and interglacial eras. One theory is earth crust displacement.

Plato's Atlantis probably was part fiction, part reality.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, IlluSionS667!

There is quite enough historical evidence that leads to the conclusion that there was a predeluvian civilisation, however it's all very controversial.

I would be happy to hear what you are familiar with. Of course, hearsay and circumstancial are not truly historical evidence. Most of what I have seen through the years has been hearsay or circumstancial. There seems to be a great vacuum when it comes to genuinely historical evidence concerning Atlantis, IMO and observation.

 

[IlluSionS667]

Kindest Regards, IlluSionS667!I would be happy to hear what you are familiar with.

As you said, most evidence is circumstancial. But nevertheless, it's all very interesting.

Well, let's start :

- There have been mummies in Egypt, containing coca extracts. The coca plant can only be found in Egypt. how did it get there?
- The Gods of the South-American people were bearded. Native Americans can not grow a beard. This means these Gods were from another race. One possibility is that the South-American Gods were vikings. But that's only one possibility.
- Some ancient technology and science are too evolved, conpared with the rest of their knowledge. What techniques were used to make diorite vases for the Giza pyramid? How were they able to construct a structure like that in such an exact way, with primitive means? How did the Mayas and Egyptians gain their knowlegde about the universe?
- The Veda's speak of Gods fighting wars against each other, flying in their vimanas. Who were these Gods? Were they imaginative creatures? What are Vimanas?
- The Eddas and the Greek-Roman myths speak of Gods fighting wars with 'titans' or 'giants'. Who were these Gods and who were these titans or giants? Were they imaginative creatures?
- According to hieroglyphs, Egypt was rules by demi-Gods before the Egyptian dynasties (= during Tep-Zepi). Who were these demi-Gods? Were they imaginative creatures?
- Why were the Elohim or the angels in the old testament? Were they imaginative creatures?
- Was it really God who destroyed Sodom and Gomora, and how and when did he do it? Or is this story not to take literally?
- The oldest stone man-made stucture we know of is much older than 3000. It's the Giza sfynx. It shows severe erosion marks caused by lost of falling water ( ! ). Who built it and why?
- What about strange old maps, such as the Piri Reis map?
- What was up with the Mayas? What was the intention of their "big plan"?
- What was the intention of the symbols in the Nazca plain? Who were they meant for?
- The pyramid of Cheops and the sphynx both seem to have something with 10.500 BC, which is around the time of a great cataclysm (the end of the so-called Ice age) Could this be the great flood mentioned in so many ancient writings around the world?



There's a lot more to this, but it's been quite a while since I was into this whole Atlantis deal. My memory has faded. But I know that some things just don't fit. There seems to be a hell of a lot of ancient knowledge coming from nowhere. We know that there have been white men moving to India and America, but we don't really know when and how. We know that there have been people who gained the status of Gods, but we don't know where they came from. We know there's been a great cataclysm, which lead to the death of many animal species. Could this have been the end on an unknown human civilisation too?

It's perhaps a bit farfetched to assume that there was an Atlantis, located on what now is called Antarctica, with highly evolved knowledge. The big question is : IF Atlantis existed, what happened to them between the cataclysm and the start of some of the greatest known human civilisations around 3500 BC? What has happened with this ancient knowledge? And what has happened to the descencents of the Gods?

We know barely anything of what happened in human civilisation before 3500 BC. Will we ever know an answer to all the questions stated above? Who knows?!

 

[iBrian]

Those are good questions - and I'm glad to see them remain on the clearer side of rationalism.

As for voyaging and ancient knowledge - as mentioned elsewhere here, let's give humanity some credit. Here we are, using computers, connected to one another via the internet, a global telecommunications network for the transfer and storage of information electronically...who could have taught us this? Where did these technology innovations come from when we haven't even found a way to utilise Nuclear Fusion as an ordinary household means of energy generation, and not even using carbon nano-tubes and buckminster Fullerenes in general manufacturing, controlled by quantum computers...

The simple truth is that the human species is an innovative creatue - that is precisely why we're not all grunting at dust on the Savannahs of Kenya.

There was a far more global inter-exchange - especially via trade - that modern history fears to allow for. And ancient peoples, in sharing our capacity for innovation and creativty, were able to accomplish rather remarkable feats of engineering - as evidenced across the world - so long as a large enough population is compelled to such construction for long enough.

However, you are quite right in that there are deeper questions to be asked - the source of Angels, the enigmatic Nephilim and giants - and there's something about the Veda commentaries that sometimes seems far too....advanced, even by contemporary standards. And there's a giant appears in the Mahabarata, and a warning carried with him, that just seems to speak directly of nuclear wepaonry (forget his name - begins with "G").

It's just unfortunate that so much sensationalism surrounds many of the questions - these are questions perhaps with many answers - different levels of interpretation - rather than the simple easy "answers" too many profit-seeking books and magazines would rather convince us of.

2c.

[EDITED: to remove my appalling typos ]

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, IlluSionS667!

Thank you for your post!

- There have been mummies in Egypt, containing coca extracts. The coca plant can only be found in Egypt. how did it get there?

I presume you mean that coca comes from South America, not Egypt. We did consider this earlier, and I cannot help but wonder if this may have been a driving consideration in Thor Heyrdahl's adventures concerning the Ra expeditions.

- The Gods of the South-American people were bearded. Native Americans can not grow a beard. This means these Gods were from another race. One possibility is that the South-American Gods were vikings. But that's only one possibility.

Certainly, there are many possibilities. Facial hair, in my understanding, was not preferred among Native Americans, so the tradition and cultural way of dealing with facial hair was to pluck it. It is a more thorough way of dealing with it.

I have also seen pictures of relics from Central America with distinctly African features, broad noses and kinky hair, not typical of Native American cultures (or European, for that matter).

And you are correct in that, using the Aztecs as an example, white skinned peoples (especially those with red hair) were sometimes viewed with a form of reverence, which made the Spanish conquest that much easier.

-What techniques were used to make diorite vases for the Giza pyramid?

I am not familiar with these, do you have any examples?

How did the Mayas and Egyptians gain their knowlegde about the universe?

Yes, an intriguing question. Likewise, how were the Aztecs able to create such an accurate calendar? For that matter, how were the Babylonians able to do the same?

- The Veda's speak of Gods fighting wars against each other, flying in their vimanas. Who were these Gods? Were they imaginative creatures? What are Vimanas?

- What was the intention of the symbols in the Nazca plain? Who were they meant for?

Ah yes, I believe it was Von Danken who posed these questions in Chariots of the Gods. Of course, he is usually dismissed by mainstream science. I would like to have the privilege of one day seeing Nazca for myself. Besides which, there are other large scale drawings in various corners of the world. I seem to recall a chalk horse several stories tall somewhere in the South of England, as well as a "giant" in the SW desert of California.

I could add to the Vedic lore with the story in Ezekiel of the "wheel within a wheel", some claim to be some type of flying device.

- The Eddas and the Greek-Roman myths speak of Gods fighting wars with 'titans' or 'giants'. Who were these Gods and who were these titans or giants? Were they imaginative creatures?

I am not familiar with the Eddas, and only cursory info about the Romans, but "giants" seem to be a recurring concept in several cultures, not least the race of giants from which Goliath was decended. There would seem to be a thread drawn between this race and the fallen "Nephilim."

- According to hieroglyphs, Egypt was rules by demi-Gods before the Egyptian dynasties (= during Tep-Zepi). Who were these demi-Gods? Were they imaginative creatures?

Ah, my ignorance is showing. I am not familiar enough with ancient Egypt to address this.

- Why were the Elohim or the angels in the old testament? Were they imaginative creatures?
- Was it really God who destroyed Sodom and Gomora, and how and when did he do it? Or is this story not to take literally?

I can answer from my religious tradition, but not from historical or archeological fact.

- The oldest stone man-made stucture we know of is much older than 3000. It's the Giza sfynx. It shows severe erosion marks caused by lost of falling water ( ! ). Who built it and why?
- The pyramid of Cheops and the sphynx both seem to have something with 10.500 BC, which is around the time of a great cataclysm (the end of the so-called Ice age)

I understand this puzzle to be a source of academic conflict. The date I have seen places the Sphinx construction at or near the construction date of the Great Pyramid, 2500 BC +/-. I also understand that some of the Sumerian ziggurats predate this, walled cities in general and pyramids in particular having originated there (oldest known structures, anyway). There is much in Central and South America that is as of yet insufficiently explored or catalogued. I still wonder if there are not yet things to be found in Africa and SE Asia that may further challenge the established timeline.

- What about strange old maps, such as the Piri Reis map?

I have long been facinated with the Piri Re'is map.

- What was up with the Mayas? What was the intention of their "big plan"?

I have not heard of this before, can you provide anything to demonstrate?

Could this be the great flood mentioned in so many ancient writings around the world?

I understand Charles Berlitz wrote a book addressing this, but I have not yet found a copy. It is my understanding that a flood fable or myth is to be found in many cultures and places throughout the world, a great many of them having striking similarities, but I have not had the opportunity to go over the material that makes these claims.

There's a lot more to this, but it's been quite a while since I was into this whole Atlantis deal. My memory has faded. But I know that some things just don't fit. There seems to be a hell of a lot of ancient knowledge coming from nowhere.

Likewise. The subject has been a source of fascination for a long time, but struggling through the flaky stuff to get to the core material kinda put me off for a while.

It's perhaps a bit farfetched to assume that there was an Atlantis, located on what now is called Antarctica, with highly evolved knowledge.

I understand the plate tectonics/continental drift concept, but Antarctica is a bit of a puzzle in this. If the current thinking is correct, Antarctica drifted from the eastern side of Africa, which would seem to me the opposite direction from the place Plato suggested.

I have my own thinking in this that contradicts the current thinking, considering the drift associated with the Indian subcontinent and its source from Antarctica, which if it could be showed correct would allow for your possibility.

The big question is : IF Atlantis existed, what happened to them between the cataclysm and the start of some of the greatest known human civilisations around 3500 BC? What has happened with this ancient knowledge? And what has happened to the descencents of the Gods?

We know barely anything of what happened in human civilisation before 3500 BC. Will we ever know an answer to all the questions stated above? Who knows?!

This, of course, returns us to our multi-million dollar question.