Worrying generations

Faithful-Angel

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Salaam All Brothers & Sister,

Am new to the form and I find it interesting in all the topics asked/questioned as well as the answers.

I am worried about the new trend of "muslims" that are into "lesbianism". As I am a muslism girl studied from a convent school, i have seen many girls who are muslims have got themselves into "lesbianism".

Because of these many have indeed call themseleves a muslim knowing that this is not allowed in Islam.:(
these have grown in numbers and indeed a worrying sight... mushallah..

Many so called muslims have entered in the world of thinking where clubbing and alcohol as well as sex before marriage is the way in one's life.
I am worried for the future of our younger generations of young muslims because of bad influences.
mushallah..:(

May allah guide our years to come and future generations of our young muslims. Amin
 
Do you think the trend is actually new?

Or does the free wheeling actions of some Muslims over the past century possibly what incubated the ability for the more strict fundamentalist viewpoint that has emerged over the past few decades?
 
I am worried for the future of our younger generations of young muslims because of bad influences.
mushallah..:(

Frankly I'd worry more about your own connection with God and less about others.

Bad influences don't just tempt lesbians.
 
the truth of the matter is there has always been homosexuals, primitive societies honoured such 'aberrations' some becoming shamans, shape shifters etc.

Now in our 'modern' society many taboos such as this, and sexual including child, abuse as well as those who do not feel 'at home' in their incarnated bodies and so want to change,surgically, their gender are all 'coming out' of the woodwork as western society at least is more accepting of all relativity- would you reject your child if they were gay?!

perhaps we are too concerned with what our neighbours, relatives,religion and society think of us and ours; surely love should be the determinant factor.
If you believe all has been created then one must accept and respect, so long as harm is not done to others [do not worry about the young they are much more intelligent than we will ever be].

l personally believe they have been incarnated still wishing to be what sex they were before; it is not a choice [feel sad for bisexuals though!]
 
Do you think the trend is actually new?

Or does the free wheeling actions of some Muslims over the past century possibly what incubated the ability for the more strict fundamentalist viewpoint that has emerged over the past few decades?

yes maybe some muslim women cannot/will not accept the role placed on them to be less equal to the male. at the end of the day we all want a true and equal unconditional love, perhaps they are finding that with the 'fairer sex'
 
Salaam All Brothers & Sister,

Walaikum Asalam sis, welcome 2 the forums :)

i have seen many girls who are muslims have got themselves into "lesbianism".

rrrrreally?... how exiting. And you have "seen" them, have you??

.... do you know where they live?

(just kidding... I'm sorry)


Many so called muslims have entered in the world of thinking where clubbing and alcohol as well as sex before marriage is the way in one's life.
I am worried for the future of our younger generations of young muslims because of bad influences.
mushallah..:(

May allah guide our years to come and future generations of our young muslims. Amin
That's the world sister... If you want to protect yourself from it, then you better pray.

Surah Fatiah, and Surah Nas are your best protection. Your sword and your shield... remember that.
 
Frankly I'd worry more about your own connection with God and less about others.

Bad influences don't just tempt lesbians.


Salaam,

I'm just worried about the road down the line, like my future kids and influences of the modern world.:)
for i do have some friends who think that getting on the right track is not an issue, becoz we are in our twenties as there is still time for later.

For me I don't see why we should relax and not get on the right track when suddenly some people just died in their twenties and not getting enough knowledge and just passed away like that.

It's probably something that we can also get more knowledge/ into Islam, rather then we just focus on upgrading on worldly issues...

this is only what i think and share to all...:)
 
Walaikum Asalam sis, welcome 2 the forums :)



rrrrreally?... how exiting. And you have "seen" them, have you??

.... do you know where they live?

(just kidding... I'm sorry)

well, it's rather a painful thing to watch them like that and continued towards their adult life. It's only that i don't except them.. it's just wrong to watch and let them be that way.. as a friend, should atleast help or inform, but they wanna be left alone.. so I hope them for the best, Allah's will..


That's the world sister... If you want to protect yourself from it, then you better pray.

Surah Fatiah, and Surah Nas are your best protection. Your sword and your shield... remember that.

thank you :), Al-quran does help along the way in my life when mixed with some "lesbians-friends" who tries to get me into "their-way"....
 
thank you :), Al-quran does help along the way in my life when mixed with some "lesbians-friends" who tries to get me into "their-way"....

l can relate to that faithful angel, its very disconcerting to be around the same sex who may see you in a way you do not wish or make remarks you would rather not hear, so you have to be confident in yourself and strong to shrug off and let it pass you by...:)
 
perhaps we are too concerned with what our neighbours, relatives,religion and society think of us and ours; surely love should be the determinant factor.

I'll ditto that.

l personally believe they have been incarnated still wishing to be what sex they were before; it is not a choice [feel sad for bisexuals though!]

Interesting... except that gender and sexual orientation don't go hand in hand. What I mean is that one can be masculine and still gay, or feminine and still gay. Or the opposite. I've met gay people of all spectrums of affiliating with masculine or feminine, and they were still gay.

So I don't know that previous life is a determining factor, given this. I suppose I could see how it might impact transsexuals, but not sexual orientation. There are plenty of men and women who feel comfortable and happy being men and women, but are still gay. Sexual attraction isn't aligned with gender identity.

I don't know why you'd feel sad for bisexuals... Just another orientation.
 
thank you :), Al-quran does help along the way in my life when mixed with some "lesbians-friends" who tries to get me into "their-way"....

I actually know exactly what you mean... I had a bisexual friend who tried to get me into "their way" too...

that's pretty high up in my Top 10 Most Awkward Moments EVER list...
 
Yeah...a worrying, lost generation...a generation that is really pitiful...there is no safe shore in this consumative world which thinks only about profit, and gaining. Everything is measured by how much one can get back...a world wherein principles are rarely, very rarely reawrded...a world who hates seeing straight people because they remind them of their coruuption...a world wherein fear, despair are prevailed...a world wherein love, compassion and mercy become missed...a world of deires, whims, wealth, and everything that can be touched..a world wherein everything measured by pleasure and coins...a materialistic world...a world of jungle and wolves....

That's why, I send a letter of love and thank to everyone who lightens up the life of anyone by smile, a word, and a few coins....by care, listening and parently hug...by anything coming from a sympathetic, warm, and loving heart...

To those, I present my prayers and my appreciation...my tears, and my laughs...

Keep giving love to the world...keep giving, though it comes days when one feels being drained. Yet, keep giving for God/ Allah knows, and He rewards your spirit and heart. Is there anything more valuable than a loving heart...a heart connecting to the All in All: God..

Keep giving, eventough those who destroy are far beyond the number of those who build...Keep giving, and Allah knows...
 
DITB- that's a lovely passage, but I had one question. Are there places in the world where people hate seeing straight people? I don't know of any.

Most people are straight (some 95% of the population, as a recent poll showed), so it seems that most people would be fine with seeing straight people. In my country, gay people are typically very nice to straight people and they certainly don't hate us. I've had many gay friends and coworkers and they were all nice.

I just wondered why you thought they hated seeing straight people. The gay people I know dislike discrimination against them, but then, so does everyone. But they don't hate straight people.
 
DITB- that's a lovely passage, but I had one question. Are there places in the world where people hate seeing straight people? I don't know of any.

Most people are straight (some 95% of the population, as a recent poll showed), so it seems that most people would be fine with seeing straight people. In my country, gay people are typically very nice to straight people and they certainly don't hate us. I've had many gay friends and coworkers and they were all nice.

I just wondered why you thought they hated seeing straight people. The gay people I know dislike discrimination against them, but then, so does everyone. But they don't hate straight people.

God bless you, sister...

I think you misunderstood me. I meant by "straight" people those who are spreading justice, and fighting corruption in all its types. I didnt mean refer to the sexual orientation, but rather to the moral ethical side. I was talking in general....

Yet, Path of One, I have to admit that I am still in confusion to decide about the sexual orientation: is it genetic or not? Though, I believe that God cant punish others for something they have no control about...

If sexual orientation is just a matter of desire, sister, then I think that there should be solutions to this deviation....

What do you think, sister? I am interested in your opinion...

I believe that a Holy Book is the book of instruction of us. Once we get away from God's teachings, we are going to suffer...we are going to witness the experience of making "mistakes" to learn...we are going to deviate, suffer and pay the price to come back to Him...Once we break out His Word because of our egos, desires, and whims, we are going to gain short lived pleasure, and a deep sadding regret... There is no benefit in a pleasure followed by regret....We are fool, and weak... and because of our folishness, lack of insight, short knowledge, and weakness, we make wrong choices....

Because of our arrogance, we ignore God's teachings, take the road not taken, enter in a circle of short/superficial pleasure, discomfort, depression, and suffering to realize at the end that with Him our happiness lies, and to come back to Him...

That's why the happiest is the one who convincingly submits to God, deeply believing that He is the best to run things for our benefit...
 
God bless you, sister...

And you, too. :)

I think you misunderstood me. I meant by "straight" people those who are spreading justice, and fighting corruption in all its types. I didnt mean refer to the sexual orientation, but rather to the moral ethical side. I was talking in general....

OH! Ah-ha- the light bulb goes on! I'm sorry; I had completely misunderstood. Certainly, I think that in general there is a resistance among many people to justice, mercy, and even, sadly, to love and compassion. I have a lot of ideas about why that is, but I can sum it up by saying that I believe that in order to become a vessel of God's grace, love, and justice, we have to empty out our ego-selves. We have to look at our flaws and we have to resolve to submit to God in us, rather than following after every little feeling and thought. I believe this is what Jesus taught, and also what is taught in other religions when people are willing to look for what they can give God, and not what God can give them.

But this process of transformation requires work on our part- work that can be hard, uncomfortable, even painful. It requires diligence and honesty in how we look at ourselves. In order for us to forgive and love ourselves, we have to know what we are forgiving- that is, what we do wrong and the mistakes we make. All that seems to be upsetting to many people, so it is easier to resist it. Some people resist it by doing whatever they want. Other people are religious, but still resist it by insisting they are better than other people or by mostly focusing on other people's sins rather than their own. But all of that avoids looking at one's own sin, one's own mistakes and weaknesses and flaws, and offering them to God in resolution to work toward fixing them, asking for God's grace and mercy in helping us change them. When we focus on other people's sins, unless it is something that directly harms us (like murder or stealing), we are just avoiding dealing with our own. Even when we uphold justice for things that harm others, such as murder, it should be done without passion or anger. That is my belief.

Yet, Path of One, I have to admit that I am still in confusion to decide about the sexual orientation: is it genetic or not? Though, I believe that God cant punish others for something they have no control about...

Based on science, I believe that there is sufficient evidence that sexual orientation is genetic. What that means is that people are born oriented to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex, the same sex, both sexes (though maybe not equally), or to no one. Yes, some people have no sexual feelings- and that is also an orientation.

I do not believe God punishes people for their orientation, but I think that if people use their sexuality in ways that harm other people or themselves, if they do not respect the sacredness of sexual union... then it is not so much that God punishes them, but that the consequences of this sin happen in their own life and in those that are harmed. I believe it is not so much that God punishes us, but that we will have to face the suffering and pain we cause through our selfishness to others and to God, and this process would cause us to feel that pain and that separation from God.

Personally, I am for separation of church and state, so I believe the government should not make laws restricting homosexuality, but I understand that in Islam, this is not something that makes sense. So I am not sure of what the correct answer is in Islam. We debate about it in the U.S.- some Christians and Jews believe that homosexuality is a matter that should be handled only religiously and between the individual and God, while others believe that the government should have laws restricting the rights of homosexuals.

What I know is that I sin in many ways, and yet I still have equal rights in my government. So I believe that even if homosexuality is a sin, they should get the same equal rights I get as a sinner.

All that said, I do not believe homosexuality is a sin, but rather a way that someone is born. But I do believe that sexuality is not something that should just be for one's pleasure, because it is an act that brings together people in intimacy that can cause psychological harm when misused. So, I suppose I would say to me the ethics of sexuality don't have to do with whom one has sexual relations, but rather why and under what circumstances. There are many more heterosexual sexual unions that are immoral than homosexual ones, simply by virtue of sheer population size. When 95% of the population is heterosexual, and a good chunk of them are committing adultery or having sex without thought for their partner's well-being... you get the idea. There are many more sexual sins in that group than the other one, even if you consider homosexual acts sinful.

I think that we focus on homosexuality as sinful so we do not have to face the sinfulness of heterosexuality. At least, that is what happens in the U.S. a lot. Our divorce rate is 50% on average, in some areas 65%. Many young people do not respect their bodies and sexuality, and there is a lot of sexual abuse and assault. 30% of women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. That is a huge number.

I find all of this heterosexual sin far more troubling for many reasons. First, because its sheer volume. Second, because the focus on gay marriage means that attention is taken away from the harm caused by heterosexual unions that are not in caring, comitted relationships. Third, because children without planning can only come from heterosexual unions. I am very concerned about children that are unwanted and neglected, and we have a lot of them. Homosexual unions don't produce unwanted children, so at least if there is harm done, it is harm between two adults and not harm to children.

If sexual orientation is just a matter of desire, sister, then I think that there should be solutions to this deviation....

Whether a sin or not, I think there are always solutions to desire. Just because we have a desire does not mean we must act on it. Furthermore, we do have a capacity to overcome our desires through conscious, consistent direction of our bodies and minds.

Even though I do not believe homosexuality is a sin, I do believe that sexuality in general is something within our control. We do not need sex, even though we may desire it strongly. Saying that we cannot control our impulses is, unless we are mentally disabled, an excuse.

I think the question is not can we avoid acting on our desires, because people clearly do. That is what marriage is based upon- that we can say "no" to our attraction to other people outside our marriage. The question is more about fairness, to me. If homosexual people are born that way, is it fair to expect them to never have a marriage because of their genetics? Is it fair for other people to tell them they do not have equal rights?

In my country, our constitution says no. My conscience tells me "no" as well. I believe that as long as this act is consensual and someone is not hurting another person, then if they are sinning they need to fix this between themselves and God. I believe this way because I know that I sin and make mistakes, and I don't believe God sees my sins any differently than a homosexual person. Sin is sin and the only way around it, in my opinion, is deciding to work hard at fixing it, with God's help and mercy.

I believe that a Holy Book is the book of instruction of us. Once we get away from God's teachings, we are going to suffer...we are going to witness the experience of making "mistakes" to learn...we are going to deviate, suffer and pay the price to come back to Him...Once we break out His Word because of our egos, desires, and whims, we are going to gain short lived pleasure, and a deep sadding regret... There is no benefit in a pleasure followed by regret....We are fool, and weak... and because of our folishness, lack of insight, short knowledge, and weakness, we make wrong choices....

I agree. I don't believe in hell or that God punishes us, but I think we are inherently punished by our own sins. What I mean is that I do think that whether we choose to do it right now in our lives, or later after our death, we have to face all the things we do wrong and how they caused pain and suffering to others and to God. And we can only ignore that while we are alive.

If we learn to listen to God while we are alive, we still have to face our sins and weaknesses, and I can say that at least for me, it still hurts. It is a painful process to see how I hurt others or fall short of what God would have me be. But I think it hurts less by doing this one day at a time than saving it all up for when we die, partly because we do a little each day and partly because as we do this, God transforms us and with His mercy and grace, we become better all the time.

Because of our arrogance, we ignore God's teachings, take the road not taken, enter in a circle of short/superficial pleasure, discomfort, depression, and suffering to realize at the end that with Him our happiness lies, and to come back to Him...

Our arrogance, and our fear. I think a lot of people are afraid to look at themselves honestly and to come to God. When we commit ourselves to God, I believe we are called to give up ourselves completely. This is a process and takes time, but it means that we are supposed to put aside ourselves, so to speak, so that we make room for God to have His will in us. I believe that at its highest potential, this is what I see in Jesus. Complete selflessness, God's will coming through completely in his life. He is my example, and while I fall short, I am grateful for God's grace and mercy that bridges the gap, and I hope that I become more and more perfected.

Peace to you, sister. :)
 
I believe homosexuality to be as natural as heterosexuality as behaviours go. And that there aren't any more today then in the past. It is just that the environment is currently more conducive to them going public where in the past it was not...which probably actually presents more of a problem.

While I don't understand the behaviour, I can't imagine a guy physically wanting to be with a guy...For many homosexuals I've spoke to they can't imagine being with a woman, it is unappealing to them.

So while many religions have led us to believe it is all abhorant and sinful and such. In many cases folks use their religion to hide their homophobia.

I think in all cases as descibed here and elsewhere, it is us, ourselves we should worry about improving..the whole get the log out of our own eye, not like we don't have plenty of room for improvement.
 
And you, too.
.I have a lot of ideas about why that is, but I can sum it up by saying that I believe that in order to become a vessel of God's grace, love, and justice, we have to empty out our ego-selves. We have to look at our flaws and we have to resolve to submit to God in us, rather than following after every little feeling and thought.

What more can I say than God bless you, Jim .. God bless you….You words are really touching and true..

But this process of transformation requires work on our part- work that can be hard, uncomfortable, even painful. It requires diligence and honesty in how we look at ourselves. In order for us to forgive and love ourselves, we have to know what we are forgiving- that is, what we do wrong and the mistakes we make. All that seems to be upsetting to many people, so it is easier to resist it. Some people resist it by doing whatever they want. Other people are religious, but still resist it by insisting they are better than other people or by mostly focusing on other people's sins rather than their own . But all of that avoids looking at one's own sin, one's own mistakes and weaknesses and flaws, and offering them to God in resolution to work toward fixing them, asking for God's grace and mercy in helping us change them. When we focus on other people's sins, unless it is something that directly harms us (like murder or stealing), we are just avoiding dealing with our own. Even when we uphold justice for things that harm others, such as murder, it should be done without passion or anger. That is my belief.

oh, sister, it is really a painful transformation process. Who could be that patient to resist anger and passion. Yet, I still believe we can. It is just a hard process..

Also, I read about some sufis writings. They say that one shouldnt be angry when something bad happen to them becuase anything, anything, that is happening in this world is with God's will. And since God wills it, then for sure there is a divine wisdom behind it. My grandparent was once terribly ill. I was looking at him, feeling his pain. He looked at me, and said: "Oh, my dear, they are foolish those who refuse God's will. It is all for our benefit." Then, he said; " Whatever comes from the beloved is beloved, too,"...Again, we come to the notion of love, Jim. The deeper and the firmer our love to God is, the stronger, the contented and the happier we are...



Based on science, I believe that there is sufficient evidence that sexual orientation is genetic. What that means is that people are born oriented to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex, the same sex, both sexes (though maybe not equally), or to no one. Yes, some people have no sexual feelings- and that is also an orientation.

I beg your pardon, sister, but I v found proof, scientifical proof, which clearly shows that homosexuality is not genetic. It is rather a sort of mental disorder that can be recovered through counseling process. Look at the following videos:
YouTube - Is Homosexuality Genetic?
I do not believe God punishes people for their orientation, but I think that if people use their sexuality in ways that harm other people or themselves, if they do not respect the sacredness of sexual union... then it is not so much that God punishes them, but that the consequences of this sin happen in their own life and in those that are harmed.

Well, sister, I like the way you interpret our suffering as a result of our false choices. Yet, it remains that it is God's law: if we choose the wrong, we pay the price….

I believe that our holy books are our books of instructions. Once we deviate from them, we are going to stop functioning in the right way, and hinders body, or spirit from real progress.

In Islam, homosexuality is prohibited. Hence, as you said, if people make the wrong choice, and try homosexuality, they would pay the consequence of this sin in their own life…


I believe it is not so much that God punishes us, but that we will have to face the suffering and pain we cause through our selfishness to others and to God, and this process would cause us to feel that pain and that separation from God.

I agree, sister, though it remains that this suffering is within God's law. Now, sister, I start seeing suffering as a mercy from God to cleanse us from bad derives, and get us back to Him…back to the purity of soul, and the sweetness of connecting with Him…

Personally, I am for separation of church and state,

In Islam, that is not possible, Jim. God says:
[33:36] No believing man or believing woman, if GOD and His messenger issue any command, has any choice regarding that command. Anyone who disobeys GOD and His messenger has gone far astray.

We Muslims believe that there is no other better source of the most appropriate legislation than God.

God is All-Wise. That's why, by submitting to Him, one becomes wise, too. Islam presents real legislation to all parts of human life: social, economical, political..

Yet, sister, don’t think that Muslims countries are practicing that. Most of them are depending on human made legislation…

so I believe the government should not make laws restricting homosexuality, but I understand that in Islam, this is not something that makes sense. So I am not sure of what the correct answer is in Islam.

In Islam, as I said, it is really prohibited. Yet, as I told you, this is not practiced. Now, in Morocco, the voice of homosexuals start to rise. They have established an association called "the same"…meaning it is the same as heterosexuals as homosexuals…

God says in the Quran:

[26:160] The people of Lot disbelieved the messengers.
[26:161] Their brother Lot said to them, "Would you not be righteous?
[26:162] "I am an honest messenger to you.
[26:163] "You shall reverence GOD, and obey me.
[26:164] "I do not ask you for any wage; my wage comes only from the Lord of the universe.
[26:165] "Do you have sex with the males, of all the people?
[26:166] "You forsake the wives that your Lord has created for you! Indeed, you are transgressing people."
[26:167] They said, "Unless you refrain, O Lot, you will be banished."
[26:168] He said, "I deplore your actions."
[26:169] "My Lord, save me and my family from their works."
[26:170] We saved him and all his family.
[26:171] But not the old woman; she was doomed.
[26:172] We then destroyed the others.
[26:173] We showered them with a miserable shower; what a terrible shower for those who had been warned!
[26:174] This should be a lesson, but most people are not believers.
[26:175] Most assuredly, your Lord is the Almighty, Most Merciful.

That's why, sister, I believe that homosexuality is not genetics. If it were, and God is most aware of His creatures, God wouldn’t punish the homosexuals….
What I know is that I sin in many ways, and yet I still have equal rights in my government. So I believe that even if homosexuality is a sin, they should get the same equal rights I get as a sinner.

Well, dear, I am not holding that a homosexual should be deprived from their government right. Rather, we should fix the sin. That's my point, dear. We should pure the soul, hence the community…

All that said, I do not believe homosexuality is a sin, but rather a way that someone is born.
Something that should be looked at because there are proofs that homosexuality is not genetics…


But I do believe that sexuality is not something that should just be for one's pleasure, because it is an act that brings together people in intimacy that can cause psychological harm when misused.

I agree, Jim. Actually, homosexuality have many terrible psychological and mental problems:
http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Mental_Health

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_Health


There are many more heterosexual sexual unions that are immoral than homosexual ones, simply by virtue of sheer population size. When 95% of the population is heterosexual, and a good chunk of them are committing adultery or having sex without thought for their partner's well-being... you get the idea. There are many more sexual sins in that group than the other one, even if you consider homosexual acts sinful.

Well, dear, now we are talking about the society's view and standards, rather than religion. I think that society now looks to adultery as something ordinary, while looks in homosexuality in other way. It is the society's deformed standards. While in the sight of God, they are both prohibited, and should be. It is God who knows what is best for us, not our blind, short sighted derives and whims…

I think that we focus on homosexuality as sinful so we do not have to face the sinfulness of heterosexuality.

Yes, some do, but that shouldn’t be our behaviors…one should strive for perfection as man was created for that…

Whether a sin or not, I think there are always solutions to desire. Just because we have a desire does not mean we must act on it. Furthermore, we do have a capacity to overcome our desires through conscious, consistent direction of our bodies and minds.

God bless you, dear…


…I do believe that sexuality in general is something within our control. We do not need sex, even though we may desire it strongly. Saying that we cannot control our impulses is, unless we are mentally disabled, an excuse.

I second you…


If we learn to listen to God while we are alive, we still have to face our sins and weaknesses, and I can say that at least for me, it still hurts. It is a painful process to see how I hurt others or fall short of what God would have me be. But I think it hurts less by doing this one day at a time than saving it all up for when we die, partly because we do a little each day and partly because as we do this, God transforms us and with His mercy and grace, we become better all the time.

Touching words, Jim…

Our arrogance, and our fear. I think a lot of people are afraid to look at themselves honestly and to come to God. When we commit ourselves to God, I believe we are called to give up ourselves completely. This is a process and takes time, but it means that we are supposed to put aside ourselves, so to speak, so that we make room for God to have His will in us. I believe that at its highest potential, this is what I see in Jesus. Complete selflessness, God's will coming through completely in his life.
Peace to you, sister.


God willing, sister…God bless you. Your words for sure are coming from a pure heart…
 

@ DIB


Salaam sis

I beg your pardon, sister, but I v found proof, scientifical proof, which clearly shows that homosexuality is not genetic. It is rather a sort of mental disorder that can be recovered through counseling process. Look at the following videos:
YouTube - Is Homosexuality Genetic?
There is enough evidence to point to a genetic cause of homosexuality. But the point is that just because some trait is genetic, doesn't mean it should be endorsed. For example: there is also a gene which (they say) causes alcoholism. This does not mean alcoholics should have a free pass to the bar.

Well, sister, I like the way you interpret our suffering as a result of our false choices. Yet, it remains that it is God's law: if we choose the wrong, we pay the price….
Yea, but that is the case with everyone, not just homosexuals. We don't know if God will especially punish homosexuals any more then heterosexuals who commit fornication or adultery. But maybe He will... I don't know, but I do know that we have bigger problems then homosexuality.

Personally, my only problem with homosexuals is that they hijacked the color purple! .... like what the hell?? :( I mean, don't get me wrong, I still love Black and Red better... but Purple is so cool! (like Prince!!) it was the my first favorite color!! .. its so much better then that boring blue! (im so tired of blue man... its EVERYWHERE... like all the time!!)

In Islam, that is not possible, Jim. God says:
[33:36] No believing man or believing woman, if GOD and His messenger issue any command, has any choice regarding that command. Anyone who disobeys GOD and His messenger has gone far astray.
This verse you have quoted does not endorse Theocracy. It is speaking to believing men and women, not to states. If it was, it would be contradicting the other verse in the Quran which states "There is no compulsion in religion".

In fact, you should be aware sister that Islamic Shariah is a secular legal system. No laws in Islamic legislation can be based in religion, because religion is irrational. I posted a video lecture series by an Islamic scholar about this a long time ago in one of the threads here. You should watch those and you will see that there is no theocracy in Islam, and there is a separation of "church" and state in Islamic Shariah.

For example, in Islam, we are commanded to pray 5 times a day. But that command is personally applied to the individual. The state can never force anyone to pray 5 times. An Islamic state running the correct form of Shariah can not do this because the command to pray is irrational, and Shariah is a rational legal system. As you already know, real Shariah is very different from the Taliban or Saudi Arabia's system. However, you may be surprised to know that it is also secular.
 
What more can I say than God bless you, Jim .. God bless you….You words are really touching and true..


I am not sure if my words are true, but I try my best to say what I think is true, given my experience and journey so far. :) But I thank anyone for blessings from God- they are always appreciated.

(My name is Kim, though, not Jim. :p)

oh, sister, it is really a painful transformation process. Who could be that patient to resist anger and passion. Yet, I still believe we can. It is just a hard process..

Yes, it can be very difficult. Yet, most things in life worth doing are not easy. When I think I feel that the journey is too much to bear, I try to do two things: to return to the joy and peace I have in the refuge of God's mercy, and to become inspired by other people (most commonly Jesus for me, but it could be Muhammed for you or any saint, prophet, or someone like this) who have demonstrated much better than I the perfection that comes from utter devotion.

We have hope, even if our path is difficult sometimes.

My grandparent was once terribly ill. I was looking at him, feeling his pain. He looked at me, and said: "Oh, my dear, they are foolish those who refuse God's will. It is all for our benefit." Then, he said; " Whatever comes from the beloved is beloved, too,"...Again, we come to the notion of love, Jim. The deeper and the firmer our love to God is, the stronger, the contented and the happier we are...

I agree. In the Christian scriptures, there is a verse that says "God is love." That kind of love, agape, is the pure and unconditional love that births compassion, peace, and harmony with God's will.

I think your grandparent had a lot of insight. I found through having a very painful, chronic condition that it brought me much closer in touch with my body's frailty and God's comfort and power. I have learned a lot about listening to my own body and mind, and the power to nip things in the bud if I am attentive right away. I learned that sin works that way, too. For example, if I am diligent in watching for the first sign of anger, let's say, then I can deal with my anger when it is very, very small in my emotions. I can give it to God in prayer and ask for change when it has not yet taken over my emotions and thoughts, when I still have more self-control. So I learned that even pain and suffering can teach me something if I am willing.

I beg your pardon, sister, but I v found proof, scientifical proof, which clearly shows that homosexuality is not genetic. It is rather a sort of mental disorder that can be recovered through counseling process.

I think there are attempts on both sides to provide proof. I've studied human society and biology for over ten years professionally, so I have based my opinion on a lot of reading and discussion with scientists. I think C0de is probably providing a viewpoint that would work within Islam- that while it is genetic/biological, Islam would still demand that someone be held accountable for actions.

Actions are different than attractions or desires, of course. The difficulty in Christianity is that the Christian scriptures say Jesus taught that our desires and thoughts are counted as sin just as our actions are. For example, thinking about having sex outside of our marriage is counted as adultery, even if we do not do it. That is much more problematic in the issue of homosexuality (and sexuality in general). It is very difficult to control one's thoughts and desires.

However, it is possible. Buddhists, for example, believe that it can be done and have a process to assist in this type of self-awareness and control.

I am not Muslim, so of course I cannot answer in terms of whether or not Islam believes homosexuals must simply conform to not acting on their desire, or whether they are also sinning through their desires.

Well, sister, I like the way you interpret our suffering as a result of our false choices. Yet, it remains that it is God's law: if we choose the wrong, we pay the price….

It is the way life works, yes.

I believe that our holy books are our books of instructions. Once we deviate from them, we are going to stop functioning in the right way, and hinders body, or spirit from real progress.

I have mixed feelings about basing everything in holy books, but I am not Muslim, so I don't know that my feelings are relevant to your religion. I find that my best progress is made from cultivating an ongoing awareness of God in my life. All the reading of the Bible or other holy books in the world does not seem to curb me from sin, but cultivating a constant presence of God in my life seems to help a lot. I do think that holy books provide us with a legacy of what many people over many years learned about God and the consequences of poor decisions/actions.

I start seeing suffering as a mercy from God to cleanse us from bad derives, and get us back to Him…back to the purity of soul, and the sweetness of connecting with Him…

I believe part of our purpose is to alleviate suffering, which can only be done through connecting to God and becoming what we were meant to be- vessels of God. I believe we can learn from suffering, but should do all we can not to cause it.

We Muslims believe that there is no other better source of the most appropriate legislation than God.

That is what I learned about Islam in my religious studies courses in the university, which is why I was saying I don't think that my government's system necessarily makes sense for Muslim people. Government and religion, and how the two work together, depends a lot on the religion and culture involved.

Yet, sister, don’t think that Muslims countries are practicing that. Most of them are depending on human made legislation…

That is always the difficulty, isn't it? It doesn't matter if it is our government or religion or any institution... humans generally have difficulty putting God first, and so all of the social institutions tend to stray away from any real spiritual purpose.

That's why, sister, I believe that homosexuality is not genetics. If it were, and God is most aware of His creatures, God wouldn’t punish the homosexuals….

That is difficult to figure out, to me. People can be psychotic or sociopathic, for example, and this can cause them to do crimes. But they are mentally ill and incapable of making a better choice. I am not saying homosexuality is a mental illness (I actually do not agree with that) but I am saying that it is difficult to know how God would judge this or that person. I tend to worry about my own sin and being as much as I can, a testimony to God's work in my own life. I figure that I cannot judge others, because I am not God. So all I can do is my best to love other people and give encouragement in approaching God. I trust God will do all the work that is needed in someone and the best I can do is encourage people to go to God with their whole selves.

I do not have a lot of specific answers, but I do have a strong faith that giving ourselves to God is the best course of action. I don't really feel like I need answers for myself as much as I need God to work in me so that I am able to live in each moment in harmony with God's will. I feel like that is the best I can hope, pray, and live for.

God Bless,
Kim/Path
 
Kim,
Actions are different than attractions or desires, of course. The difficulty in Christianity is that the Christian scriptures say Jesus taught that our desires and thoughts are counted as sin just as our actions are. For example, thinking about having sex outside of our marriage is counted as adultery, even if we do not do it.
I disagree with this interpretation. There is nothing wrong with admiring another person's outward self. It's part of who they are. It's when a concern with their outward aspect predominates to the exclusion of appreciating their soul that it becomes problematic. The issue is not action; it's lack of discernment about another person's nature that reflects a flawed (selfish) attitude toward Creation in general.

All the reading of the Bible or other holy books in the world does not seem to curb me from sin, but cultivating a constant presence of God in my life seems to help a lot. I do think that holy books provide us with a legacy of what many people over many years learned about God and the consequences of poor decisions/actions.
I believe the purpose of holy books is to help us clarify the directives of the Indwelling Spirit.

That is what I learned about Islam in my religious studies courses in the university, which is why I was saying I don't think that my government's system necessarily makes sense for Muslim people.
Surveys have shown that Muslim populations largely favor democratic government.

Government and religion, and how the two work together, depends a lot on the religion and culture involved.
In the case of Muslim populations this is not so. They don't care if the democratic government is theocratic or not.

I am not saying homosexuality is a mental illness (I actually do not agree with that) but I am saying that it is difficult to know how God would judge this or that person. I tend to worry about my own sin and being as much as I can, a testimony to God's work in my own life. I figure that I cannot judge others, because I am not God.
I'm not sure there's anything to judge as far as sexual orientation. We went through this in an other thread: we established that there is no Biblical concept of homosexuality as sin.

All I can do is my best to love other people and give encouragement in approaching G-d.
I believe one way to do this is to be careful with communications.
 
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