Worrying generations

Kim,

I disagree with this interpretation. There is nothing wrong with admiring another person's outward self. It's part of who they are. It's when a concern with their outward aspect predominates to the exclusion of appreciating their soul that it becomes problematic. The issue is not action; it's lack of discernment about another person's nature that reflects a flawed (selfish) attitude toward Creation in general.

It remains that the interpretation of those passages is variable. Admiring a person's aesthetic beauty is not the same as lusting after them. I think what Jesus was referring to was that furthering of lust toward someone is adultery is one's mind. That is a different issue than finding someone admirable physically, aesthetically pleasing, attractive. Just as indulging in unmerited anger was akin to murder- that one is harming the other in one's mind.

I actually find these to be very useful ways of thinking, as it encourages one to master their thoughts and feelings, which of course goes a long way to mastering one's actions. It is pretty hard to commit adultery, for example, if you refuse to entertain lustful thoughts and feelings. People say all the time that adultery "just happened," but this is deceiving oneself and others. Adultery begins with thoughts and feelings; Jesus encourages us to get some self-control over our thoughts and feelings, which then translate into action.

ETA: I wanted to expand a bit and explain a bit more. We can be very appreciative of another person's soul and still allow ourselves to fall in love with and commit adultery with another person. Sexual orientation is not mere lust, but also tied up in marriage and relationship; it is related to our appreciation for and love of others' minds, souls, and so forth. Homosexual unions are not just about sex. And for that matter, adultery is often not just about sex. Unions of all sorts are often tied up in appreciation of another person's soul. But that appreciation for someone's soul doesn't mean that the relationship is one that is harmless or beneficial. I could fall in love with someone other than my husband, have a relationship with him, and appreciate that person's soul very much, but that's still adultery and would be hurting all of us (my husband, me, and the other guy). Feelings and thoughts don't have to be base and crude to be harmful.

I believe the purpose of holy books is to help us clarify the directives of the Indwelling Spirit.

I think they can certainly be useful that way. Of course, the difficulty is that holy books are written by other people who had their own struggle to clarify these directives. People who believe holy books are entirely inspired and infallible are able to ignore this or circumvent it, but otherwise we are stuck with the position that the books were written, compiled, and interpreted over the years by people just like ourselves... which rather makes it more difficult to see them as clarity.

As it seems that Islam is more uniform than Christianity in how it approaches its scriptures, I would imagine that your statement makes sense within Islam, but I would have to leave that for the Muslims to assess.

Surveys have shown that Muslim populations largely favor democratic government.

I was not speaking about democracy. I was speaking about separation of secular legislation and religious moral codes, which is what C0de and DITB were discussing. Democracy has to do with structure, while I was discussing the content and origin of law.

In the case of Muslim populations this is not so. They don't care if the democratic government is theocratic or not.

Again, I was speaking of law and how it is created and applied rather than to governmental structure.

I'm not sure there's anything to judge as far as sexual orientation. We went through this in an other thread: we established that there is no Biblical concept of homosexuality as sin.

This is the Islam board, so I'm refraining from establishing anything from the Bible. They have the Quran, so their own scriptures would have to be discussed and used as the foundation for the issue, right?

I believe one way to do this is to be careful with communications.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Perhaps you could try communicating it to me again?
 
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@ DIB

Salaam sis

Alaykom salaam, brother....

There is enough evidence to point to a genetic cause of homosexuality. But the point is that just because some trait is genetic, doesn't mean it should be endorsed. For example: there is also a gene which (they say) causes alcoholism. This does not mean alcoholics should have a free pass to the bar.

Ok, fair enough, c0de, though I believe that homosexuality is not genetic...It is rather a deviated desire, and whim that can be fixed and controlled...

Yea, but that is the case with everyone, not just homosexuals. We don't know if God will especially punish homosexuals any more then heterosexuals who commit fornication or adultery. But maybe He will... I don't know, but I do know that we have bigger problems then homosexuality.

Sin is sin as Kim said. I dont say that homosexuality is bigger sin than adultery or fornication...Sin is sin. It is right that we have bigger problems than homosexuality, Yet, we shouldnt focus on just one, and let the rest...

This verse you have quoted does not endorse Theocracy. It is speaking to believing men and women, not to states. If it was, it would be contradicting the other verse in the Quran which states "There is no compulsion in religion".

Well, c0de, what does a state consist of? Does not it consist of people? If most population of a state are Muslim, then what? How their legislation should be consisted of? Of course, it should be consisted of God's teachings...

In fact, you should be aware sister that Islamic Shariah is a secular legal system. No laws in Islamic legislation can be based in religion, because religion is irrational. I posted a video lecture series by an Islamic scholar about this a long time ago in one of the threads here. You should watch those and you will see that there is no theocracy in Islam, and there is a separation of "church" and state in Islamic Shariah.

For example, in Islam, we are commanded to pray 5 times a day. But that command is personally applied to the individual. The state can never force anyone to pray 5 times. An Islamic state running the correct form of Shariah can not do this because the command to pray is irrational, and Shariah is a rational legal system. As you already know, real Shariah is very different from the Taliban or Saudi Arabia's system. However, you may be surprised to know that it is also secular.

Actually, brother, I think we make a big injustice to Islam when we sum it up in rituals. Islam is not just rituals. Islam is a philosophy of life.

I am not refering at all to the five pillars of Islam, or the ritual side of Islam. The prophet Muhammed pbuh said that there is no difference between people, they are all equal in the sight of God, and that the only difference is being in one's peity...And we all know that piety is between God and His servants. It is a personal relationship that NO ONE has the right to judge...

When I say that a Muslim society should be run Islamicaly, I mean the social realtions in all its forms.

Let me simplify that, c0de. Adultery is prohibited in Islam, and its doers should be punished.

Now, we come to the conditions for the punishement to be applied: To have four witnesses of the sexual intercourse, which is actually a very almost impossible situation. What's the lesson we get from this, c0de? The lesson, c0de, is that God gives people room for repentance when they sin. But once they become shamlessly sinning in public, and houses of porstitution prevailed, then a punishment should be applied for the safety of community...


Socially, Islam presents to us laws arranging marriage, divorce, inheritance, education of children, the special relation between husban and wife, relations between family members,neigbours, taking care of orphans, poors, animals, environment...

Economically, Islam prohibits usury/interest, hoarding, gambling, lotteries, the heaping up of wealth..it teaches the principles of buying/selling, paying zakat (alms) and charity,...

Politically, Islam defines consultation and participation as a factor to choose the leader, relation between countries/alliances, state of war and peace, ....

Actually, Islam left nothing void. It fills all the spaces... How come we leave all this divine guidance to substitute it with short sighted human legislation that have to be aktered from one and then....

Take usury/interest as an example. God says:"

[2:278] O you who believe, you shall observe GOD and refrain from all kinds of usury, if you are believers.
[2:279] If you do not, then expect a war from GOD and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. [2:280] If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew."

People ignores God's Word, and the price is paying now through the world economic crisis.

Islam asks us to pay Zakat, which is a kind of tax estimated by 2,5% annually. This zakat plays a very important social and economical role, as it builds compassion between members of society, and at the same cleansing the rich from miser and thrift, and the poor from envy, and it also propmote by the poor's life.....

NB: There is no contardiction between the Quran saying that there is no compulsion between religion, and that a contry should be run Islamically. IT is within Islam's teaching that people of other faith can remain and practise their faith very freely. Within the Islamic empire, there was church, synagogue, and other houses of worship for other believers...

I think people deviate from God's holy books/ our books of instructions, they choose to enter the cycle of experiencing/ suffering to realize that it is within God, the best way of life is...

 
I think what Jesus was referring to was that furthering of lust toward someone is adultery is one's mind.
Given his teachings, I tend to think he was talking about how to love oneself and others by seeing a person as a whole - i.e., not objectifying a person or equating the person with their physical self. But maybe we should make sure he was talking about adulterous interests versus lust in general.

It is pretty hard to commit adultery, for example, if you refuse to entertain lustful thoughts and feelings. People say all the time that adultery "just happened," but this is deceiving oneself and others
I suspect adultery may be to a large degree opportunistic and unplanned.

Adultery begins with thoughts and feelings; Jesus encourages us to get some self-control over our thoughts and feelings, which then translate into action.
Theories of sexual behavior abound, but very few insist that fantasy alone predict overt behavior. I realize that's not exactly what you said, but not considering other variables does give that impression.

There have been a number of interesting counterintuitive findings that militate against the view that behavior can be predicted from fantasies. Specifically, normals actually have more sexual fantasies than sexual deviants. There is also very little evidence of a connection between fantasies and behavior in deviant groups. In a study that came out earlier this year, most people who engage in frequent deviant fantasies do not act on them. In short, there appears to be a weak fantasy/correlation behavior.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Perhaps you could try communicating it to me again?
I think the above is a possible example of how one might say things that have the potential to promote an unsound view of how people see their inner life, possibly even creating discomfort with or anxiety about some aspect of one's inner life (fantasy).

I think the view in question is an unfortunate misconception. I think people should enjoy their fantasies and admire each others' physical beauty. :)
 
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I am not sure if my words are true, but I try my best to say what I think is true, given my experience and journey so far. :) But I thank anyone for blessings from God- they are always appreciated.

I believe that words coming from heart get to heart, sister

(My name is Kim, though, not Jim. :p)

Now, it's my light bulb which goes on...:D Pardon, Jim..errr...sorry, :eek:, Kim

We have hope, even if our path is difficult sometimes.

Yes, dear, as my friend says:" even sometimes the rate of hope is just 0,005, we stay hapeful."

Actions are different than attractions or desires, of course. The difficulty in Christianity is that the Christian scriptures say Jesus taught that our desires and thoughts are counted as sin just as our actions are. For example, thinking about having sex outside of our marriage is counted as adultery, even if we do not do it. That is much more problematic in the issue of homosexuality (and sexuality in general). It is very difficult to control one's thoughts and desires.

I think that Jesus peace be upon him wanted to encourage people to clean their thinking, as any action is first preceeded by a thought.

I am not Muslim, so of course I cannot answer in terms of whether or not Islam believes homosexuals must simply conform to not acting on their desire, or whether they are also sinning through their desires.

There is a prophetic saying which says that God doesnt count for thinking about sin, unless it is practised.

Also, God says that He knows bout thinking, and that we should purify it, eventhough:
[2:235] You commit no sin by announcing your engagement to the women, or keeping it secret. GOD knows that you will think about them. Do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to discuss. Do not consummate the marriage until their interim is fulfilled. You should know that GOD knows your innermost thoughts, and observe Him. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Clement.

That is always the difficulty, isn't it? It doesn't matter if it is our government or religion or any institution... humans generally have difficulty putting God first, and so all of the social institutions tend to stray away from any real spiritual purpose.

I second you, Kim...


... So all I can do is my best to love other people and give encouragement in approaching God. I trust God will do all the work that is needed in someone and the best I can do is encourage people to go to God with their whole selves.

What a noble aim...

I do not have a lot of specific answers, but I do have a strong faith that giving ourselves to God is the best course of action. I don't really feel like I need answers for myself as much as I need God to work in me so that I am able to live in each moment in harmony with God's will. I feel like that is the best I can hope, pray, and live for.
God Bless,

Kim/Path



Great, Kim.. God bless you, too, dear..
 
@ DIB

Hey sis


Alaykom salaam, brother....

walaikum Asalam :)


Ok, fair enough, c0de, though I believe that homosexuality is not genetic...It is rather a deviated desire, and whim that can be fixed and controlled...
I believe it is a "deviated desire" as well, but in some cases it does have genetic roots. The point is that even in those cases, it doesn't stop being a "deviated desire".

Well, c0de, what does a state consist of? Does not it consist of people? If most population of a state are Muslim, then what? How their legislation should be consisted of? Of course, it should be consisted of God's teachings...
Sister, since this issue has been discussed in great detail before, allow me to copy paste from that thread: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/western-concepts-are-they-compatible-9917.html

What is Islamic Sharia?



For anyone who wants to know more about Sharia Law, I will post a very brief (and very surprising) summary. Islamic Law, is actually secular in nature, which very few people realize. The links I provide are to a lecture delivered on the subject by a respected scholar of Islam. The first thing which should be remembered is that whatever is being applied in countries like Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan under the Taliban etc. is NOT Sharia Law at all. The first thing I will post, is actually discussed in the last part, but is most surprising: - No law can be passed which forces a person to follow religious commandments. Because religious commandments are not rationalizable. - So you can not force someone to fast, or pray etc. Now, for a little more detail:



Part 1: is very stretched out, but deals mainly with the objective of Islamic Law. The main thesis is this: Any law, which is outside the bounds of mercy, and does not serve to bring a benefit to society is not compatible with Sharia.

(Skip the first minute, as it is in Arabic)
Dr. Mokhtar Maghraoui - MaqassuDul Sheerah Part 1



In Part 2: There are 5 Universals in Islamic Sharia.
Any legislation which violates any of these is outside Sharia:
Also, these laws are universal, for men and women.

1) The Right of Religion - For example, a piece of legislation which says that someone does not have the right to believe in God. Or you do not have the right to perform prayer, etc.

2) The Right of the Self - Anything which violates the physical body, torture, unnecessary capital punishment, unnecessary abortion etc. (I am not fully sure about abortion, I read once somewhere else abortion was allowed up until the 3rd month I think. This issue is confusing in every legal system I think)

3) The Right of Reason - The rights to Education. Everyone in Sharia has the right to seek education. Men, Women, girls and boys. To prohibit anyone from their right to seek knowledge is outside Sharia Law. Also, the preservation of the intellect is also part of this, meaning that drugs and intoxicants are not allowed in Islam because they inhibit the mental faculties.

4) The Right to Progeny - Any legislation which restricts the right to have children, or to adopt children. Homosexuality is disallowed because (I was surprised by this at first) but the scholar makes a good case that anything which could contribute to a drop in population replacement levels in the long term is against Sharia Law.

5) The Right of Property - So Marxism is not compatible with Sharia Law. Also, this applies not just to men, but to women as well. Islam was the first religion to grant these rights to women, fourteen centuries ago.


Dr. Mokhtar Maghraoui - MaqassuDul Sheerah Part 1 - Google Video


Part 3: Priorities in formulating Legislation.

Questions dealing with Privacy, preservation of Life, freedom of speech etc. Also, the question of utility, measuring the benefit and harm produced by any legislation. In this case, the law should favor the legislation which produces the most benefit for the most amount of people. The scholar stresses that this process requires very detailed research and analysis. He complains that this is not done nearly enough in Fiqh research (Islamic Jurisprudence). He stresses that the methods of Islamic systematic approach of legal analysics is very unique and powerful, but is not used to full affect. Islamic systematic reasoning reduces the problems of speculative reasoning if properly applied.

Dr. Mokhtar Maghraoui - MaqassuDul Sheerah Part 1 - Google Video



Part 4: Conclusion


Stresses that any legal verdict and its consequences must be rationalizable, i.e. based in reason. Basically, what this means is that the law itself has to be logically sound, and the effects that any verdict produces will have to be measurable.

Most importantly: What this means is that no law can be passed which forces a person to follow religious commandments. Because religious commandments are not rationalizable. This, is especially amazing the scholar points out considering this view is fourteen centuries old!

What this means is, (and I will restate this) that in effect, Islamic Law, is actually secular in nature.

Dr. Mokhtar Maghraoui - MaqassuDul Sheerah Part 1 - Google Video
 
Given his teachings, I tend to think he was talking about how to love oneself and others by seeing a person as a whole - i.e., not objectifying a person or equating the person with their physical self. But maybe we should make sure he was talking about adulterous interests versus lust in general.

Matthew 5:21-28:

21"(Z)You have heard that the ancients were told, '(AA)YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be [b]liable to (AB)the court.'

22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before (AC)the court; and whoever says to his brother, '[c]You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before [d](AD)the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the [e](AE)fiery hell.
23"Therefore if you are (AF)presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be (AG)reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.
25"(AH)Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26"Truly I say to you, (AI)you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last [f]cent.
27"(AJ)You have heard that it was said, '(AK)YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman (AL)with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

That seems fairly straightforward to me, but I could be missing something. I think the passage speaks to an expansion of sin to point out that sin originates in thought and feeling. Actions do not happen from out of the blue. So, when we cleanse our thoughts and feelings and gain self-control over these things, we have a much easier time cleansing our actions. I think it is notable that this section ends with:

48"Therefore (BJ)you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I think God forgives us our imperfections, but I think our goal and inspiration should be perfect thought, feeling, and action. Jesus talks a fair bit about the distinction between outward appearance and inner sincerity- in our sins, in prayer, in fasting, and so forth. He emphasizes again and again a need for inner purity, inner giving up to God, as opposed to a semblance of it for society to see.

I suspect adultery may be to a large degree opportunistic and unplanned.

Actions don't happen without thought. While adultery may be opportunistic and unscheduled, if someone is entertaining adulterous thoughts with someone, it is much more likely to influence their action. Most people I know who have committed adultery did so with a friend, a co-worker, or someone else that they already knew. This doesn't indicate a completely random event that is entirely situational. While they may not be planning to have an affair, they are encouraging their own thoughts and feelings about an affair, and this becomes associated with sexual arousal and makes it more likely that they would have an affair if they are given the opportunity. If one is self-controlled in thought and feeling, focusing on the love and atraction one has for one's spouse, then one's sexuality is more likely to be expressed toward that person.

Basically, it is training your mind and body to respond with arousal to your spouse rather than to other people.

There is quite a bit of evidence that the brain does not fully distinguish between actual action and thought. This is used rather extensively in training for sports, for example. You can progress much faster in training if you envision/think about perfect movements than if you do not, even while you are still learning and making mistakes. Our habitual thoughts train our bodies and minds to respond in certain ways.

When we think over and over about sexual relations with someone other than our spouse, we train our bodies and minds to become aroused based on this other person, and to find the idea of an affair with them more and more acceptable. Conversely, when we direct our thought to our own spouse each time we are sexually aroused (whatever the source), we train our bodies and minds to become aroused by our spouse, and we deal with the idea of an affair directly. Rather than having adulterous thought be something that just simmers without critical self-reflection, waiting for that opportunity to spring forth... we bring it into the light of self-reflection pre-emptively and deal with it.

Theories of sexual behavior abound, but very few insist that fantasy alone predict overt behavior. I realize that's not exactly what you said, but not considering other variables does give that impression.

Human sexuality is a very difficult area to gain any accurate data and theory about for a number of reasons. And it is not my expertise, nor do I claim it to be. I'm here giving my opinions in a dialogue with Muslims, not claiming expert knowledge on sexual behavior. I offer up my own observations from my life and the people I know, given what I know about human thought and action. That said...

I am not speaking about fantasies in general. I am speaking about encouraging thoughts of sex with particular people. As I said before, I am not personally equating homosexuality with adultery, but rather saying that in Islam, both are treated as sin that has to do with misdirected sexuality. I am not saying I think homosexuality is misdirected sexuality, but rather providing insight about sexual thought and behavior with the example of adultery, which Muslims and I both perceive as ethical misconduct.

What I am saying is that my observation is that fantasizing about a person other than one's spouse on a regular basis trains one's mind and feelings to associate arousal with that person, and makes it more subconsciously acceptable to have an affair with that person (and to have an affair in general). You are basically training your mind and emotions to associate pleasure with a "new" person, rather than with your spouse. There are plenty of fantasies a person can have that involve their spouse, and Jesus' teachings seem to indicate that fantasies involving some other person are problematic. Why?

Well, for one you are training yourself to become aroused by someone other than your spouse. Secondly, persistent, habitual thought often leads to action if the opportunity arises, as the mind has had plenty of time to get used to the idea and associate it with pleasure. Thirdly, it means that, if the person is someone you know- a friend, a co-worker, etc.- that you are thinking about this person in an inappropriate way. You are being false. Superficially, you are treating the person with respect and acting as their friend or colleague when in your mind, you are imagining sexual intimacy with them. That doesn't seem quite right even if neither person is married. Seems far better all the way 'round to be up front and honest about your intentions toward another person, and to wait until you find out about their intentions toward you, then to engage in fantasies that can lead nowhere. While it may seem fun to have such fantasies, I have had many friends hurt by finding out this or that person thought of them as a sexual object rather than as a friend, colleague, or so forth. I have also had friends entertain these fantasies to the extent of infatuation with another person, and then have a lot of frustration and angst about finding the other person had no attraction toward them.

All of that seems like a lot of psychological and social suffering for just a bit of sexual arousal.

Specifically, normals actually have more sexual fantasies than sexual deviants.

All that would have to be qualified. What is normal, deviant, and so forth is culturally variable. Furthermore, what a normal person is likely to tell the researcher is questionable. In short, human sexuality is difficult to study because your average person in any society is reasonably concerned with appearing to be "normal" and so they will often not recognize or discuss what they feel guilty or ashamed about.

In a study that came out earlier this year, most people who engage in frequent deviant fantasies do not act on them. In short, there appears to be a weak fantasy/correlation behavior.

What was considered deviant? I am not talking about deviance as much as I am about relationship- in adultery, for example. I have seen a very strong correlation between an individual thinking a lot about an affair with a particular person and following through on it. I rarely see a person who has no thoughts or fantasies involving someone other than their spouse who suddenly commits adultery.

Furthermore, my point is that one can avoid the action and still have psychological and social cost to the marriage. Most people find it hurtful emotionally to hear of their spouse imagining sex with someone else. I guess we could say that everyone should "get over it" and just enjoy, but that doesn't seem very loving or respectful to the other person, to me.

I think the above is a possible example of how one might say things that have the potential to promote an unsound view of how people see their inner life, possibly even creating discomfort with or anxiety about some aspect of one's inner life (fantasy).

I think the view in question is an unfortunate misconception. I think people should enjoy their fantasies and admire each others' physical beauty. :)

First, I am not a religious leader. I'm just like anyone else here- I'm telling my experience and journey as I see it, thinking through problems of all sorts, and learning. I would wager everything any of us says has the potential to "promote unsound views." We are dealing with tricky stuff on this forum- our souls, God, evil and good, right thought and action- this is all difficult stuff. Why you would think I should magically be able to know the absolute truth and deliver it effectively is beyond me. I'm just another person having a chat...

Secondly, I don't think it's a bad thing for people to "create discomfort with or anxiety about some aspect of one's inner life (fantasy)." Some aspects of our inner/fantasy lives may be harmful to ourselves or others. We should have discomfort or anxiety about harmful things. That's often how we get the gumption to change. I am concerned about my whole being and its relationship with God, not just what I show through my actions. I am concerned about my feelings and thoughts. I think the Christian and Jewish scriptures both uphold a view that our thoughts and feelings matter to God. He wants us to be clean inside and out.

I am not at all a prude, and I'm very tolerant of other people's sexual lives. But I don't fool myself into thinking that anything about my sexuality- any thought or feeling or fantasy I have- is beneficial to me or my marriage. I have no problem with admiring physical beauty, but there is a difference (as I said) between appreciating someone's beauty and imagining having sex with them. The former is appreciating God's creation, the latter is imagining an intimacy that is arguably inappropriate.

In short, I don't think thoughts are necessarily harmless, and I feel called to self-reflection on my thoughts and to work toward thoughts and feelings pleasing to God as much as to work on actions. I don't think our inner life should serve just pleasure any more than our outer life should.

I hope that clarifies my position; I'm happy to address any ideas or questions you have about it to clarify further if needed. We may simply disagree about the purpose of our thoughts and feelings.
 
Now, it's my light bulb which goes on...:D Pardon, Jim..errr...sorry, :eek:, Kim

That's OK. :p

I think that Jesus peace be upon him wanted to encourage people to clean their thinking, as any action is first preceeded by a thought.

I agree. I expand on this in my response to Netti. Actions don't happen on their own, so it's much easier to have action harmonious with God's will when our thoughts are already in harmony with God's will.

There is a prophetic saying which says that God doesnt count for thinking about sin, unless it is practised.

Also, God says that He knows bout thinking, and that we should purify it, eventhough:
[2:235] You commit no sin by announcing your engagement to the women, or keeping it secret. GOD knows that you will think about them. Do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to discuss. Do not consummate the marriage until their interim is fulfilled. You should know that GOD knows your innermost thoughts, and observe Him. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Clement.


That's about how I see it. I think that we are called to become vessels for God to work in and through us, and so our minds (thoughts and feelings) must be offered to God just as we offer our bodies (actions). I found that Buddhism offered a good explanation of all the things we can make right through what they call "The Noble Eightfold Path": Right View, Right Thinking, Right Mindfulness, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Diligence, Right Concentration, and Right Livelihood. I find it useful to consider and ask myself if I am offering all these parts of my life to God, or if I am withholding something for myself. We can make up justifications for why it is OK for us to withhold something for ourselves, but I find it pointless to do that, because all of it is interconnected. Might as well set about working on all of it, and then what we do better in one area leads to betterment of the others.
 
When we think over and over about sexual relations with someone other than our spouse, we train our bodies and minds to become aroused based on this other person, and to find the idea of an affair with them more and more acceptable. Conversely, when we direct our thought to our own spouse each time we are sexually aroused (whatever the source), we train our bodies and minds to become aroused by our spouse, and we deal with the idea of an affair directly. Rather than having adulterous thought be something that just simmers without critical self-reflection, waiting for that opportunity to spring forth... we bring it into the light of self-reflection pre-emptively and deal with it.
It's a good theory. Any research evidence?

My understanding is that people have affairs because emotional needs are not being met in the marriage, and this is more the case for women as compared to men. It actually has little to do with sex. I'm sure we could do a quick Google search and find empirical support for that.

Matthew 15:19 provides support for your view: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander."
 

@ Netti + Path


Aren't you guys mixing the biblical view of desire/temptation, with the scientific explanations of these urges stemming from evolutionary psychology?

Passion, in the religious sense: is an ethereal phenomenon. But your descriptions of temptations such as those towards adultery/fornication have so far been psychological ("emotional needs", "mental training" etc.) In the religious sense, all passion, whether noble or earth bound, arises from the soul. Consequently, this is why no passion (and the resulting action) can be considered "evil" in itself, because evil is defined by God's standards.

So... if your talking about the issue from the POV of evolutionary psychology, then you will have trouble fitting biblical verses into the discussion.
 
It's a good theory. Any research evidence?

My understanding is that people have affairs because emotional needs are not being met in the marriage, and this is more the case for women as compared to men. It actually has little to do with sex. I'm sure we could do a quick Google search and find empirical support for that.

Matthew 15:19 provides support for your view: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander."

As I stated, I think the research-based evidence stems from what we understand of how habitual thought trains our bodies to respond and more thought/feeling arises. This is widely used in sports training, dance, and so forth. It is also, from what I've gathered in my studies of Buddhism, fairly well-developed through Buddhist thought on the matter.

Frankly, I doubt something so logical and so cross-culturally and cross-religiously universal is based on nothing, but as I say... I offer what I can and if others don't like it, it's fine by me.

In terms of emotional need, I think this is precisely why many of my women friends have been hurt by repetitively thinking about sex with people who are or should be "off-limits" to them. By "fixing" their emotional need with sexual fantasies of other men, they are ignoring the root problem, which is unmet intimacy needs within their marriages. The trajectory I've seen over and over again is that if an unmet emotional need is ignored in a relationship and the person fantasizes about an affair, this leads to flirtation with another man and the flattery that temporarily gives a feeling of happiness and self-worth, which then leads to further frustration with one's spouse and more fantasies about an affair, leading to more flirtation and flattery, and eventually leading to taking advantage of the "opportunity" presented in the moment to have an affair.

Nipping all that in the bud and actually addressing one's intimacy needs within the relationship one has seems to result in a lot less heart-break for all parties concerned.
 
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@ Netti + Path

Aren't you guys mixing the biblical view of desire/temptation, with the scientific explanations of these urges stemming from evolutionary psychology?

I tend to think the Bible and other holy books have a lot of good advice about morality that happens to work with how our brains and bodies function.

I'm not saying that the only reason to follow these teachings is because they are, to me, upheld by my psychological or other observations, but rather that if we don't follow them out of faith, we could at least follow them because they also make a fair bit of sense in terms of assisting the individual and community in suffering less and caring for each other more.

Passion, in the religious sense: is an ethereal phenomenon. But your descriptions of temptations such as those towards adultery/fornication have so far been psychological ("emotional needs", "mental training" etc.) In the religious sense, all passion, whether noble or earth bound, arises from the soul. Consequently, this is why no passion (and the resulting action) can be considered "evil" in itself, because evil is defined by God's standards.

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at, to be honest, but I would welcome any expansion on these ideas. I am not sure how you define passion and how that relates to desire, attraction, and so forth. It has a lot of different definitions, so I think a baseline definition of yours would help me understand better what you're saying about the difference between how religion would think about passion as opposed to how psychology would think about it. As a spin-off from that confusion I have about passion in this sense, I am not sure exactly what you mean by the last sentence. I think you're saying that it is God's standards of conduct, through the Quran, that outline what is considered evil, rather than passion itself? (Of course, then it gets back to that question of what passion is...)

I'm not saying that sexual desire is evil, but rather that inappropriate sexual desires (i.e., those desires that would lead to inappropriate actions) should probably not be indulged for obvious reasons. Aside from the issue of indulgence leading to greater acceptability, there is the issue that perhaps we should try to have clean thoughts and feelings (as much as we're able) and not just clean actions.

It's not that I advocate killing our passion, but rather directing it appropriately. I have other ideas about being too attached to things of this world, but I have no idea how much they would have to do with Islam, so I figure I would avoid them in this conversation. Though I am not a Muslim, I find this conversation very enlightening and interesting... I am trying to be respectful and yet offer what I can. :)

So... if your talking about the issue from the POV of evolutionary psychology, then you will have trouble fitting biblical verses into the discussion.

I think it's more that psychology and cognitive studies indicates that much of the advice and standards given in holy books like the Bible works well with the way our bodies and brains work. It's not that you prove psychology with the Bible, or the Bible with psychology... but that one can note that the two can work together.

Though, incidentally, my ideas stem far less from psychology than from Buddhism and what their teachings say that are in alignment with the Bible. It's more an interfaith thing for me than a psychological thing. But since Buddhism seems to discuss the issue of human cognition, emotion, and action much more extensively and directly than the Bible, it appears to be more psychological than religious. I haven't read enough of the Quran or studied Islam enough to know how Muslims approach these issues.
 
@ Path


I tend to think the Bible and other holy books have a lot of good advice about morality that happens to work with how our brains and bodies function.

I'm not saying that the only reason to follow these teachings is because they are, to me, upheld by my psychological or other observations, but rather that if we don't follow them out of faith, we could at least follow them because they also make a fair bit of sense in terms of assisting the individual and community in suffering less and caring for each other more.
I seem to have a different perspective on this, because for me the reason temptation exists doesn't seem to have anything to do with the dopamine rushes, perennial glands, or serotonin levels etc. These neurological events, for me, are not causes but the consequences of something else. It's like a car shifting gears, that (for me) is all the brain is, a gear box...

I am not sure how you define passion and how that relates to desire, attraction, and so forth. It has a lot of different definitions, so I think a baseline definition of yours would help me understand better what you're saying about the difference between how religion would think about passion as opposed to how psychology would think about it.
I meant that all passion(and the resulting desire) is essentially a longing for something infinite. This is different from scientific descriptions is because in their model the understanding is that if we grant enough dopamine to the brain, it will cure the thirst. When any experienced addict (of anything) knows that it is not the substance itself which satisfies the craving. Because the craving is itself infinite... There is no cure for desire... well, except death I guess.

.... maybe this is making the issue even more obscure, if so, I apologize...

I have other ideas about being too attached to things of this world, but I have no idea how much they would have to do with Islam, so I figure I would avoid them in this conversation. Though I am not a Muslim, I find this conversation very enlightening and interesting... I am trying to be respectful and yet offer what I can.

....Though, incidentally, my ideas stem far less from psychology than from Buddhism and what their teachings say that are in alignment with the Bible. It's more an interfaith thing for me than a psychological thing. But since Buddhism seems to discuss the issue of human cognition, emotion, and action much more extensively and directly than the Bible, it appears to be more psychological than religious. I haven't read enough of the Quran or studied Islam enough to know how Muslims approach these issues.
There are some Muslim sufi teachings which have been influenced by Eastern Buddhist perspectives. But I don't know if they are ultimately compatible because philosophically Budhism is (ironically) a totally materialistic system. For the Buddhists, the world is matter, and that is all that exists. And for them, matter is something to be rejected. I am sure there are overlaps in areas of self-control, but I think the wholesale rejection of "desire" as a negative phenomonenon by Buddhist systems is not sanctioned by the Abrahamic models, because they do not foster the assumption that man can actually achieve "enlightenment" or freedom from desire/temptation... Instead, the solution according to them is that the craving for the infinite, will ultimately be satisfied.


As a spin-off from that confusion I have about passion in this sense, I am not sure exactly what you mean by the last sentence. I think you're saying that it is God's standards of conduct, through the Quran, that outline what is considered evil, rather than passion itself?
Yep



p.s. This conversation is definitely productive :)

...I just wish I didn't have a headache..
 
@ DIB

I believe it is a "deviated desire" as well, but in some cases it does have genetic roots. The point is that even in those cases, it doesn't stop being a "deviated desire".

I get your point, brother, and I agree with you...

Sister, since this issue has been discussed in great detail before, allow me to copy paste from that thread: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/western-concepts-are-they-compatible-9917.html

Thanks a lot, brother, for the link. It's great add to my knowlledge to know a prominent thinker like Mokhtar maghraoui.

Concerning the info presented, it wasnt surpsrising to me.

I repeat again that we do a great injustice to Islam when we say it is a "religion". Religion according to oxford dictionary is a particular system of worship. And normally, it took the ritual part. According to this meaning, Islam then is not a religion. Islam is rather a philosophy of life from its biggest issue to the very smallest one....

Islam and secularism? Are they compatible?

Well, brother, according to Mahdi lmandjra, a Moroccan thinker, we are in need of linguistic revolution to build our concepts.

For the West, secularism is to separate betwee "church" and state. In Islam, nothing at all should go against God's teachings. We are from God, and to Him is our return. So, our life should be devouted to Him in all aspects. We cant displease Him in the economical life, ususry for example, and worship Him in other place. God says: [2:85]....Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this, except humiliation in this life, and a far worse retribution on the Day of Resurrection? GOD is never unaware of anything you do.

In Islam, secularism means something else. It means that Islam divides a Muslim's life into parts: parayer time, ruling time, work time, realtion time, and so on... And they are all considered worship. That what Islam teaches us...

I will give you a small example, brother. You give the example of the right of propriet, and you said that Islam differs in this with communism. In other words, communism is refused in Islam because of "religious" reasons. Now, do you still beleive that Islam is secular as the West view secualrism?


If I am right, I think that the right word to describe Islam is to say that Islam is "universal". It doeasnt abolish others' rights in believing, reason, propriety, life,...Yet, what Islam focuses about is the social realtions in all its forms. God knows best what is best for humanity. That's why, Islam orders physical punishment on what harms people in societ, and let the rewards/punishment of doing the five pillars( like praying, fasting,...) between God and His servants....

Islam is universal religion that protects the rights of any individual no matter what his coulour, race, religion is. And we have in history a very good proof of that..: http://www.55a.net/firas/english/id=256&page=show_det
 

@ DIB


I understand your point sister, and I am not disagreeing with the idea that Islam is a universal system, and that this system is not compatible with some other systems like communism. However, my personal opinion on the issue is just that the political state of any nation (good or bad) is a reflection of that society's spiritual condition. I base a lot of this on that verse of the Quran which states that God changes the state of a people according to what is in their hearts.

So honestly, to me, it doesnt matter what political system any country is running because in my opinion, the people who live inside the system will make it function in a good way, or an evil way, and whatever route they choose depends on the spiritual conditioning of society as a whole. This is why it is much more important to focus on teaching Islam on a personal level, and if this is done then the rest will fall into place by itself. God will take care of it Himself.
 
I tend to think the Bible and other holy books have a lot of good advice about morality that happens to work with how our brains and bodies function.

I'm not saying that the only reason to follow these teachings is because they are, to me, upheld by my psychological or other observations, but rather that if we don't follow them out of faith, we could at least follow them because they also make a fair bit of sense in terms of assisting the individual and community in suffering less and caring for each other more.
It's interesting that the Bible can support totally different views. Maybe this is why Bro. Thomas doesn't include any exegesis when he cites the Scripture.
 
I meant that all passion (and the resulting desire) is essentially a longing for something infinite.
And then there is the mental confusion of thinking a finite experience as having the potential to be that something infinite.The problem, then, is not with passion. It's with the cognitions by which the person is caught up in illusions about how rewarding an experience they can have. That being the case, the moralistic notion of harnessing the passions is essentially mistaken. It represents a misdiagnosis of the problem and a wrong prescription.

I think Buddhism is right to avoid moralistic overtones on the desire for sensory pleasure. It seems Buddhists just see it as a distraction and decide not to get too involved with it beyond being aware of how distracting it can be.
 
I seem to have a different perspective on this, because for me the reason temptation exists doesn't seem to have anything to do with the dopamine rushes, perennial glands, or serotonin levels etc. These neurological events, for me, are not causes but the consequences of something else. It's like a car shifting gears, that (for me) is all the brain is, a gear box...

I see where you are going with this...

I meant that all passion(and the resulting desire) is essentially a longing for something infinite. This is different from scientific descriptions is because in their model the understanding is that if we grant enough dopamine to the brain, it will cure the thirst. When any experienced addict (of anything) knows that it is not the substance itself which satisfies the craving. Because the craving is itself infinite... There is no cure for desire... well, except death I guess.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that all craving/desire comes from our longing for God. I'd have to contemplate that more to see if I would agree, but I can certainly see your point.

I agree that it doesn't fix the problem to just create a feel-good sensation in us.

The problem to me seems to be that we misdirect our desire. We could address our desire by returning to connection with God, or we can fill up that longing with sex, shopping, drugs- whatever we wish to try to fill ourselves up. The problem is that only connection to God seems to help in any lasting way; the other ways of handling the desire seems to just inflame it more.

I don't think desire is, in and of itself, a bad thing. But it can be misused. It can be a drive that brings us closer to God or pushes us farther away, depending on how we use it. And it has this effect on society, too- bringing people together and creating peace, or making people suffer.

There are some Muslim sufi teachings which have been influenced by Eastern Buddhist perspectives. But I don't know if they are ultimately compatible because philosophically Budhism is (ironically) a totally materialistic system. For the Buddhists, the world is matter, and that is all that exists. And for them, matter is something to be rejected.

I don't think that's really an accurate portrayal of Buddhism. They have a lot of internal differences just as Muslims and Christians and Jews do; there is a lot of diversity.

As I understand it, in Buddhism we are told that the world, as most people experience it, is illusion. This is because we tend to think of ourselves and other worldly things as permanent and independent, and they are not. Everything depends on everything else, and nothing exists on earth that is its own being, eternal and unchanging. People wish that was the case, so they suffer. When we are fully aware of impermanence and nonself (that everything on earth changes and everything on earth is dependent) then we can get beyond the concept of birth and death, me and you... and be aware that we are all at one with the "ground of being," the substance that makes up everything.

It's not very materialistic at all, from what I've gathered. It's not so much about rejecting the world as learning to see it clearly, becoming aware of what it really is.

As someone who believes in One God, I tend to think about it in terms of: I am limited, changing, and dependent. So is everything and everyone else. God is the only eternal, unchanging thing there really is. God is the only solid ground of being.

I am sure there are overlaps in areas of self-control, but I think the wholesale rejection of "desire" as a negative phenomonenon by Buddhist systems is not sanctioned by the Abrahamic models, because they do not foster the assumption that man can actually achieve "enlightenment" or freedom from desire/temptation... Instead, the solution according to them is that the craving for the infinite, will ultimately be satisfied.

That's quite interesting to ponder. I honestly do not know if it is any different to experience nirvana than to be in God's presence. I sometimes wonder if they are connecting with God and just don't call it, "God." I have had some experiences that sound just like Buddhist descriptions of nirvana by practitioners. But I would say that in those experiences, I was in God's presence, whereas the Buddhists say they experienced nirvana. So maybe it is a matter of interpretation, while the experience is the same. I really just don't know.

I can say that for me, the more time I spend with God, the less my temptations are. It seems a natural consequence, because nothing really compares to feeling the love of God.
 
And then there is the mental confusion of thinking a finite experience as having the potential to be that something infinite.The problem, then, is not with passion. It's with the cognitions by which the person is caught up in illusions about how rewarding an experience they can have. That being the case, the moralistic notion of harnessing the passions is essentially mistaken. It represents a misdiagnosis of the problem and a wrong prescription.

It is an interesting idea. I wouldn't say we are to harness the passions as much as direct them.

I think Buddhism is right to avoid moralistic overtones on the desire for sensory pleasure. It seems Buddhists just see it as a distraction and decide not to get too involved with it beyond being aware of how distracting it can be.

It is a distraction, and if one is aware of one's own thoughts, emotions, and actions, a distraction is all they become. But it would seem that without cultivation of this awareness, one just sinks further and further into indulging desire, which creates more desire, and therefore more indulgence. I'm thinking of the United States, for example. A lack of awareness and contemplation about our desire to buy new things led to blind consumerism and now we pay the price. A lack of awareness and contemplation about our desire sexually can lead to similarly unbeneficial and damaging results.
 
Netti + Path



@ Netti


It really depends, I don't think we can generalize this issue into a prescription of how best to deal with passion. Some people really can "harness" it... Whiles others burn right through it, shattering their souls in the proccess, but coming out to the other side... some put the pieces back together... while (most) others aren't so fortunate... And still others, like the ascetics can truly "ignore" passion altogether, as a thing cast behind their backs...

For myself, the only analogy which works is a sort of an asymmetrical conflict that has been dragging on for 3 years...




@ Path

You know as much as I wanted to, I couldn't bring myself to actually type those words: "and infinite longing for God"... Because I just don't know how honest such a statement would be. I remember a brief moment in my life in which I felt more content then a thousand suns... and in that moment all I felt was a presence of God... it was the only moment in my life in which I could say I was truly free of any, and all, desire... But I just can't honestly say or claim that all my passion is really just misdirected longing for God, because honestly, I just don't think humans can be so... noble... even by mistake. Maybe we can stumble onto such purity and it may last a minute... but its just not what we are... We're not angels. (at least I'm not.)

As for Buddhism, I think you might have misinterpreted what I meant by "materialistic" (I was talking from a philosophical point of view). I may be wrong, but as far as I know, most schools of Buddhism are materialistic philosophies which reject a spiritual existence entirely. I have heard there are some schools of Buddhist thought which are compatible with supernatural concepts, (specifically) such as a "soul", a spiritual existence, and the existence of a Creator. But I don't really know which ones, and how their ideas on desire differ from the mainstream. In any case, I still think there are some very beautiful aspects of Buddhist philosophy and practices. I plan on on spending a day (or two) in a Zen monastery, maybe I'll get the chance next year, inshAllah.

... wait, what... were we talking about?? was there like a point to any of this?? cuz if there was, I dont remember it at all... you know, you and Netti were talking about something (that made sense) before I entered the picture... and now im just rambling on about some pseudo spiritualistic... psychobabble !!

... i need 2 eat
 
I am not sure I would ascribe such nobility to humanity, either. I am always asking myself that question... if people crave because they have not yet found the source of their craving (God), or if people crave because of the natural instincts of having a body gone awry. I just do not know. Maybe everyone is different.

I cannot say with honesty that my own misdirected desires have ever been because I longed after God. If that was the case, it was subconscious and I deserve no credit for it anyway. What I can say is that when I am attentive to my spiritual life and spend time with God, in meditation, in contemplation of scripture, in dialogue with other spiritual people, in service and compassion to others... when I am attentive to this in my life, these desires are directed in a proper fashion. That is, I am at peace and in joy and love. I am satisfied and content. When I am attentive to my spiritual life, it is not so much that I have to work hard to change my desires or harness them, but rather that it seems to flow from my spiritual practice that I see each person as an opportunity to love God, to serve God. My anxieties and fears and cravings are all sort of untangled and tamed, not by diligence but by grace.

The work that I have to do is to cultivate a spiritual life. The rest follows on its own. If I am spending time in spiritual practice, then I find it easy to be aware of my emotions and thoughts, to know if they are beneficial to me or others, and to re-direct those that are not. The difficulty is being faithful about leading a spiritual life. Each time I fall of the wagon of spiritual practice, everything in my life suffers. My relationships are strained, I am anxious, even my body often gets ill. No matter what the world throws at me and what circumstances I face, if I am rooted in the deep earth of spiritual practice, I find harmony in each day. I find the love of God, and then I am able to share it. As I see it, my life's purpose and work is to cultivate a spiritual life in order to be more and more consistent, faithful.

As for Buddhism, yes- there are many differences within. Mahayana Buddhists, for example, often believe in God. As I understand it, Mahayana and Zen Buddhism each are open-ended about God, so some practitioners believe and some do not. Theravada tends to be firmly atheist, but even so there are monks that came out of Theravada communities who do believe in God. I find that there can be a lot of beneficial synthesis between Buddhist practice and my own, especially because there is no "right way" in Buddhism. They are understanding and encouraging of others following their own religions. So I can take a lot of valuable ideas and meditative practices in Buddhism and use them in ways that are fit for someone who believes in God.

I plan to spend at least a weekend, though I hope a week, later this year or early next in a Buddhist monastery and I am very curious how that will be. The bulk of the time is spent in silence. I don't think I have ever had a solid week with no work or any responsibilities at home that I could entirely devote to meditation and prayer. I suspect that no matter what I learn about Buddhism, the opportunity to be silent before God for any real length of time with no other responsibilities or communications will be an amazing thing.
 
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