You know nothing about Hinduism

[prajapati]

You ask Hindu/Indian what Hinduism is, they all tell you different things.

Vast quantity and diversity of Hindu heritage in practice, tradition, literature and history make it impossible to pin it down what hinduism is.

Anyone, who claim to know what hinduism is probably pushing certain agenda. This email guy is obviously pushing hindu nationalism, a recent fab.

well if its so difficult to point out what hinduism is, how can you be so sure that he is pushing hindu nationalism and not shamian nationalism ??

 

[prajapati]

Hinduwoman,
Greetings from another Hindu woman!

Thanks for sharing the link to your site. I did quickly go through your debate on the AIT and anti-AIT theory at your site, though I would like to re-read it once more. I had read about the Saraswathi-Sindhu civilization theory a few years ago, and knew about the excavataions at Dwaraka and the underwater discovery at the gulf of Khambat (Cambay). But I somehow missed reading the news on the discovery at Poompuhar - sounds truly exciting. My mother had told me about a Tamilian legend/theory that a vast portion of land off Tamil Nadu had been submerged under the sea, which probably explained the missing records of literature from the legendary early Sangam periods. Also, the single temple at Mahabalipuram (south-eastern coast of India) is supposed to be one of a series of eight temples, the rest of which were supposedly submerged under the sea. So maybe the Poompuhar discovery proves more soundly that Tamil is the oldest language in the world??

Sorry for digressing wildly from Hinduism to Tamil! Now back to the subject on this thread!

your mom is spot on about "portion of tamil nadu (actually tamils have many "nadus" - lands of tamils) being sumberged". google "kumari kundum" and "lemuria".
hinduwoman is also spot on in her site. ty for sharing.

your own conclusion is wrong though. the temples of tamil nadu are the oldest in india. there is no mention of temples in Rg VED. temples become more recent as you go northwards into india.
i dont see how the oldest temples occuring in tamil nadu proves the oldest language is tamil though. surely its possible to have languages without having temples.

 

[prajapati]

I am from South India and I love my Tamil.

I do not fall for the false propaganda by the anti-Brahmin parties.

I also don't believe in the Aryan Invasion Theory.

I have one question: "Can anyone show me a substantial proof for the existence of an ethnic race called ARYAN" from VEDIC sources?"

who told you tamils dont have brahmins amongst them???

whats ramanujam, chandrashekar, p.chidambram, c.v.raman then if not tamil brahmins ???

 

[prajapati]

i. did Indian civilisation flow West to East (per AIT) or East to West (the David Framley view, I guess).

west to east - swaraswati valley to ganges valley.
and its not david frawley's view alone.

ii. how old is the Vedic civilisation? AIT dates it to 1500BC, whereas other evidence, e.g. dried up river beds, astronomical evidence suggests a much earlier date - possibly 3500BC or earlier.

AIT's dating was based from the reference frame of the 6 day creation concept that says the world was formed at 9 in the morning, wednesday, about 6000 years ago !

astronomy "anchors" RG VED to about 3500b.c yes.

iii. is the Harappan / Indus Valley civilisation the same as the Vedic civilisation? This ties in to ii., as an earlier date for Vedic civilisation would mean co-existence of the two in India, and without obvious signs of conflict could well indicate equivalence.

nope. swaraswati valley civilization predates the Rg ved by 1000 years or more.

iv. what is the status of other ancient texts, in particular the Puranas. I've read articles suggesting that these should actually carry the same status/weight for Indian history as the historical books of the OT do for Western history (i.e. the Puranas are a historical, not mythological record).

true. both the claims of ot and purans have been proved right repeatedly.

The hardcore Hindu view, that Vedic civilisation is 6000 years old, that migration went East to West and so on would mean that ancient India would need to be considered similarly to Ancient Egypt and the Euphrates/Tigris Valley civilisations.

yes. swaraswati valley is one of four oldest civilizations - the other 3 being yellow river in china, semeria and egypt. harappa seals have been found in sumer. egyptian fire alters follow specifications found in RG VED.

In addition, it would suggest that much of modern western culture is founded in ancient Indian culture.
[/Enkidu]
in a round about way, yes. try if you can to find out why the black forest in germany is called so.

Alternatively, a variation of the AIT may be correct, and Vedic culture originated elsewhere than India.

dies hard invasionists are doing that.
VED came from outside india. doesnt matter where. moon, mars or mongolia but has to be outside india.
attempts to prove that it came from washington have also been made.

The consequences of this knowledge could change (hopefully for the better) politics in modern day India (and Pakistan).

trust me it wont have any bearing on pakistan.
india.... maybe.

The important thing however, is that we would all understand a bit more about our past and how it created our present.

yes its high time we did

 

[Andre']

It seems as if that guy's e-mail is rooted in Hindutva ideology. The RSS, BJP, and VHP are trying to put out there that all other people in the world, literally everyone in the world, has converted to other faiths from being Hindu. Basically saying that all come from, as they say, "the soil", "or our land." The Hindu Nationalists are trying to asserevate that everything is based in Hindu thought and philosophy and are not willing to hear of anything different. Hindu Nationalism is growing rampantly and id spreading worldwide with the distribution of Explaining Hindu Dharma:A Guide for Teachers. This is a complilation of Hindu philosophy marrying itself with particle physics, implying that modern particle physics is due to Hinduism. This distribution is from the VHP and are fallaciously amalgamating the two. I'm in firm belief that HIndu was the first philosophic thought, pre-dating the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I can't believe the assertions Hindutva are making in this Guide and in their theory. Hindu Nationalists are infuriated with western globalization, which I really can understand to a point, but they are back-lashing with this terrible fallacious material and it's spreading like wild fire. I believe that this e-mail Brian received is from the root feelings of a Hindu nationalist, although I could be wrong.This is really actually a very broad subject with so much history and I love discussing it.

 

[lucius]

I just thought I'd post a lovely e-mail I received this morning:



I just read the crap you have on Hinduism on your comparative religion site. I am a Hindu and your information is not only based on Judeo-Christian ignorance and religious bigotry you lot have been peddling for thousands of years but it astounds me that post modernity you are stuck in the same grove of bigotry.

Hindus did not get their religion from Persia - there is nothing in common between Hinduism and Zorastras teachings. Aryan theory is white crap designed to show that the world's oldest religion could not have come from a region they had to destroy and colonise! That you hold on to such crap is indicative of your Christian ignorance and the master race's continued intention to turn everyone into one of them. It is best your kind remain as you are - wisdom is something beyond your kind.

Your attempt at dissemination of information on comparative religions is nothing short of religious provincialism and intellectual flatulence. Leave Hinduism alone - you know nothing about it!!!!

Gian



I know it's something you shouldn't reply to, but I did:

"If you're Hindu I'm Shvia. Read some history. You obviously know nothing about Hinduism. Fin."

It's a shame but many Indian people have similar attitudes - although not all.
There is a kind of traditionalist, backward-looking trend in hinduism as in most religions - and a kind of fundamentalist attitude that grips some.
But I have also met Indian people who are accepting of a wider viewpoint and are respectful of the views of others, even westerners like me about hinduism.

When he says 'hindus did not get their religion from Persia' he's probably half wrong half right. There is very probably a common anscestor of both hinduism and zoroastrianism, but hinduism developed as we know it in a uniquely Indian context.
See 'The Masters of Wisdom' by J.G.Bennet for an very interesting insight into these links.

 

[kiwimac]

It was never my intention to suggest that Hindus did get their religion from Persia but that rather they had a common ancestor.

Kiwimac

 

[Samuel Linton Boot]

The Aryan invasion theory is contrary to Hindu faith, for if one regards the Krishna and the Rama incarnations as historical events then one must regard Vedic civilisation, as being existant in India for many tens of thousands of years.
I for one take the view that a peoples documents and folk stories are the best source of evidence as regards their history.
As has already been pointed out the use of the word Aryan to denote a race is incorrect. The Aryan invasion theory is based on assumption and has been adequately discredited, although unbelievably it still gets taught (scholars do hate to admit their wrong).
Undoubtedly Zoaroastrianism is connected to Hinduism because like all religions it has its roots in the Santana Dharma. Just as all languages have their roots in Sanskrit, the language of Hindu scripture.
As regards a date for the composition of the Vedas (or even the Puranas) it may be possible to calculate a date as to when they were written down but as they were and still are an oral tradition passed on form Guru to disciple this does not help as to pinpointing their origin.
There is a remarkable lack of understanding and respect prevalent in the West as regards Hinduism considering it is undeniably the worlds oldest living religion and has the vastest collection of scriptures and practises, covering all fields of knowledge and philosophy. The very fact that the Abrahamic religions are referred to as the worlds monotheistic religions is weird considering Sikhism and Hinduism are both also monotheistic.
In this context I quote from a discussion about teaching religious studies in recent times by a Leeds University Theology lecturer William S Campbell :
"At the beginning of the twentieth century, it was generally believed that Christianity was the fulfilment of Judaism, and therefore a superior religion, where grace and truth were assumed to be obviously superior to the legalism believed to be endemic in Judaism. This assumption of superiority over one world religion was easily transferable to other world faiths, especially those that seemed most unrelated to the Christian pattern. A religious imperialism tended to place Christianity at the apex of religious development, as the crown of all religion."

 

[Agnideva]

Namaste Samuel,

Thanks for the interesting post.

The Aryan invasion theory is contrary to Hindu faith, for if one regards the Krishna and the Rama incarnations as historical events then one must regard Vedic civilisation, as being existant in India for many tens of thousands of years.

This is essentially what modern Hindus believe. There is no internal evidence to support any such invasion. However, textbooks continue to present the invasion theory as if has been validated. I personally see history just like I see science. In both fields, the picture becomes clearer with continuing research, and older versions of the "truth" have to be replaced. I, for one, am still waiting to see concrete evidence that such an invasion did occur.

I for one take the view that a peoples documents and folk stories are the best source of evidence as regards their history.

This is an interesting perspective as well. Despite the lack of evidence, some people have come to the "conclusion" from the Ramayana that Rama’s journey to Sri Lanka and the defeat of the King of Lanka represents
"aryanization" when clearly in the story itself, the intent was quite different.

As has already been pointed out the use of the word Aryan to denote a race is incorrect.

Yes. Arya means noble in the Vedas, and Hinduism in general. In Buddhism also, the term Arya means noble. For example, the four noble truths of Shakyamuni Buddha are called Arya Satya, and the noble eightfold path is called Arya Ashtangika Marga.

As regards a date for the composition of the Vedas (or even the Puranas) it may be possible to calculate a date as to when they were written down but as they were and still are an oral tradition passed on form Guru to disciple this does not help as to pinpointing their origin.

I am not even sure that the date of their first writing can be calculated. My understanding is that ancient Hindu texts were written on palm leaves, and then carefully copied by monks and priests when the older manuscripts began to fall apart. However, I’ve heard that Vedas contain a lot of astronomical references, which have been used to calculate a range of dates for their original composition, based on equinoctal precession.

The very fact that the Abrahamic religions are referred to as the worlds monotheistic religions is weird considering Sikhism and Hinduism are both also monotheistic.

I suppose it really depends on the definition of "monotheism" . If the definition is based on the first commandment, then Hinduism does not fit that mold.

OM Shanti,
Agnideva.

 

[pohaikawahine]

when I was younger I use to get really upset when I would read about the arrival of Captain Cook on the Hawaiian islands and that "the people thought he was a god" because he arrived at the time of the "makahiki" on a large ship with white sails .... during the makahiki, a time of peace, a staff with white tapa cloth is carried as part of the procession or walk up and then down the mountain .... then I read the Hopi prophecies that some interpret to mean "when the white brother arrives ...." certain things will happen ..... then I traveled to small islands in the South Pacific and painted on the old "god's houses" were always white faces ..... and then I read my first Churchward book on the land called Lemuria and he said that the pagans that lived on the islands carried these ancient symbols, but they didn't understand the meaning ..... constantly did I see what I perceived as white superiority that was used to subject others to a different world view .....and then one day in a flash of thought (you might even call it an very small revelation) came to me "we all got it wrong and it has nothing to do with the color white" .... all the ancient chants and legends and prophecies are telling us about "light" not "white" and when we draw it or try to visualize it, the only color we see is something close to "white", but it is "light" that will come and not a "white man" ....


so when Captain Cook arrived, and it was prophecized that the God Lono would return at this time (and the God Lono is symbolized in the thunder and lightening .... only symbols, but long forgotten) yes, we did get confused and thought the "god" had arrived because we associated this ancient knowledge with the color "white" instead of "light" .... we had gone into a deep sleep and forgot the meanings of the symbols ..... and everywhere I re-visited I found the same thing .... it is "light" that we seek or "God", the "Great Spirit", the "One" .... many names, all the same ....

I also found one day a small book "Ancient Mystical White Brotherhood" by Frater Acad (part of something called the Melchizedek Series) and he states "White" in the title of this book, Ancient Mystical White Brotherhood, refers only to one's souls's intent, or one's level of consciousness as the white light refers to the highest level of thinking. It has no connection to eithe the color of one's skin or race. Just as the prism breaks white light into all colors, so does the White Brotherhood embrace all colors of skin and races. The White Brotherhood is elsewhere referred to as the Golden Brotherhood or the Universal Brotherhood." I was happy to find this small book because it reinforced that "aha" that I had several years before and helped me to remove the anger that usually raised in me when ever I head the term "white brotherhood" .... so now I understand that the reference to the "lodge of the white brotherhood" is no different that the "cave of the white bear" is no different that the "location of the holy grail" is no different than the "holy of holies" .... they are all the same, references to a place of light and knowing ....

so did Aryans travel the world thinking they were "the chosen ones" because they also misinterepreted the ancient words .... have we all been in a deep sleep forgetting who we are .... many walls have been put in place because of the pain and hurt inflicted by those that also misunderstood .... but we also gave up our power to these outsiders because we had forgotten as well .... so many of us look outside of ourselves for the answers .... when our true sovereignty has always been right there inside .... so now I understand that when the Hopi say "when the white brother arrives we will take a different path" they only mean that when we walk the ancient path of knowledge (the inner path of the spiralling energy) we will arrive at that place of light and meet our "light" brother .... or better yet, "this is the time in which we will meet ourselves" .....

isn't there a saying "wake up and see the light" ..... once I learned to let the old anger go, I was able to find my way back to that ancient path and although I stumble often, I can clearly see the light at the end of the road these days and it is a source of comfort and warmth .... he hawai'i au, pohhaikawahine p.s. and I know nothing about Hinduism except that it is part of that ancient path

 

[wil]

I know nothing...

Namaste pohaikawahine,

I was also aghast when I first read about the White Brotherhood...

But it is much the same as my understanding today of God, v. my sunday school view.

I find out more and more that I don't know anything. As what is taught to me in school gets pulled out from under me in the 'light' of current knowledge.

This applies to religious as well as historical and political thinking...as the victors write the books, we get a very revisionist view of the world. And unfortuneately mythology is powerful enough to remain through millenia of evidence.

Slightly off topic but on the subject of 'You know nothing about...' In school we were taught that George Washington lead a group of revolutionairies through the winter at Valley Forge that didn't have shoes or proper clothes, (we had drawings in our books of rags on their bloody feet walking in snow), that they were not well trained and darn near died of starvation. Truth (as we know it today) is that almost 15,000 men wintered there, none died of starvation or of the cold, none even got frostbite ( the medical records are very complete, influenza did sweep through and kill a number of them), and they practiced and drilled regularly, were well trained soldiers and all had clothes, shoes and uniforms adequate for the winter...as well as very well fed.

Unfortuneately there was a letter, and now a monument bearing the inscription that GW sent to his commander, 'the men are starving and naked.' These words, 'starving' and 'naked' were military terms. Your men are starving if you have enough food to feed most on full rations but 1/4 or more would be on 3/4 rations or less...you can call them 'starviing' they met that criteria. If less than 3/4 of your men have full uniforms, every buckle, every button, every sash 100% then you can call your men 'naked'. All men had shoes, pants, guns, shirts, coats and hats to meet their needs...they just couldn't outfit 100% of them in complete uniforms...down to the button.

We camped in tents (down to 14 degrees) with hundreds of scouts....During the orginal Valley Forge Encampment all of the thousands slept in cabins, with bunks and fireplaces and were fed by the camp staff. Our boyscouts that camped there were less fully uniformed, had similar fare to eat, but prepared it themselves, slept on the ground and had no shelter from the wind and cold but their tents at night....all so en'light'ening.

So I can see where it would be easy if in less than 250 years the terminology changed so dramatically, and in such a short time history was so bastardized to the masses....to create a completely false view of reality...that any religion whose words are thousands of years old....have matured differently in different minds and whose interpretations could easily been misconstrued.

 

[I am free]

I find the discovery that there was indeed a great Sarasvati river which dried up around 2000 BC very interesting. It does coincide with the fall of the "Indus civilization". Also it seems to show that the Rigveda & the Vedic civilization precedes or atleast coincides the Indus civilization.

When I was in school, we were taught "Aryan Invasion", the fall of dravidian civilization and also that Vedic civilization followed the Harappan one. I dont know if history books have been updated now.

The similarity between the parsi religion and Hinduism is curious though. It does seem that there was a migration, or maybe even a strong intermingling of people.

I do look forward to any further research on this subject. It would be fascinating to understand our history, heritage and culture better.

 

[Agnideva]

Namaste I am Free,

Nice to see you back .

I find the discovery that there was indeed a great Sarasvati river which dried up around 2000 BC very interesting. It does coincide with the fall of the "Indus civilization". Also it seems to show that the Rigveda & the Vedic civilization precedes or atleast coincides the Indus civilization.

Goes to show that the Sarasvati of the Rigveda is real, and not fictional . I've often wondered why scholars limit discussion of Vedic civilization only to the Indus valley -- is there any reason why it couldn't have been present in other river valleys at the same time?

When I was in school, we were taught "Aryan Invasion", the fall of dravidian civilization and also that Vedic civilization followed the Harappan one. I dont know if history books have been updated now.

My understanding is that in most places they've not been updated. There are still some scholars who don't want to change their stance. I could be wrong here, as I don't know too much about this subject.

The similarity between the parsi religion and Hinduism is curious though. It does seem that there was a migration, or maybe even a strong intermingling of people.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were many migrations back and forth. The exchange of ideas is not a new thing to human society. If I remember right, there have been artifacts found in the Indus valley suggesting that they traded with many other civilizations, including mesopotamia.

I do look forward to any further research on this subject. It would be fascinating to understand our history, heritage and culture better.

Yes, you and I both .

OM shanti,
Agnideva.

 

[I am free]

Hi Agnideva,

Nice to see you back .

Oh I had not gone anywhere. I love CR and I come here everyday. But mostly I am a silent visitor.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were many migrations back and forth. The exchange of ideas is not a new thing to human society. If I remember right, there have been artifacts found in the Indus valley suggesting that they traded with many other civilizations, including mesopotamia.

That is the way I see it too. I feel that the question whether migration was west to east, or east to west is irrelevant. It seems more probable that in addition to trade ties there would have been strong cultural ties as well with plenty of people moving back and forth.

The harappan script has not been deciphered as yet. I feel understanding the script would open the doors to understanding what actually went on in those days.

 

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Namaste Samuel,


I suppose it really depends on the definition of "monotheism" . If the definition is based on the first commandment, then Hinduism does not fit that mold.

OM Shanti,
Agnideva.

Namaste Agnideva, the same could be said of the Christian trinity

 

[Agnideva]

Namaste Agnideva, the same could be said of the Christian trinity

Hi Samuel. You're absolutely right!