Fear in the God Fearing

[Tao_Equus]

Fear is so often used in the great monotheisms. Do you fear a God? How do you perceive and embody that fear? Why do you think your God told your prophets to tell you to fear his vindictiveness? Does such a fear tangibly seem more about social politics being hijacked by religion, (and used with great moral ambiguity),?

When I look at nature outside of our anthropomorphic stereotypes I see no hint of any vengeance being played out in the cosmos. And I mean no hint emphatically. Nature is entirely ambivalent in the face of such notions. We see fear only in highly evolved animals that have the cognitive capacity to recognise and react to threat. It is an animal survival mechanism and thus not uniquely bestowed with original sin in the fall of man. Fear is an evolved animal response not a created state.

Religions, and here I am not constrained just to the big monotheisms, play to the fears we have naturally in a world full of risk of varying degree. As our minds are evolved to continually assess for risk it is inevitable that it would be expressed in our religions. Unfortunately they have all tended to use fear, and its succour, as a kind of carrot and stick mind game that does not help any of us.

 

[Postmaster]

Fearing negative karma similar to fearing to God.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Fearing negative karma similar to fearing to God.

Karma is a social acceptance that bad behaviour brings problems, unless you are powerful in which case it becomes the primary methodology. That is just common sense. Extrapolating this to some divine reward or rebirth stationing is the same thing. The concept of Karma in our day to day lives play to obvious truths that have nothing to do with religious belief even if they are often, however well meaningly, expressed through them. One man robs a bank he puts 100s of people working against him, to catch and incarcerate him. Its not bad Karma it is plain stupidity....or thrill seeking. Karma is a kind of mental acknowledgement of very real forces, but it can misrepresent them.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Hello, Tao

Actually, you seem to look at the subject from a very different point of view that has nothing to do with the real reality of the notion of fear in religion as mine is concerned..

Allah/God is not a god of revenge at all. He is free from all needs, and He can stand alone with nobody/nothing. Hence, no one can harm Him, and hence make Him vengeful.

God is Love, only love if we truley know... I m going to explain this, Tao. Sometimes, not giving is the core of giving, making one afraid is the core of mercy, putting one in trouble is the core of bringing peace, making balance, and restoring equilibrium...if we only deeply see..

Look, brother, at the purpose behind God putting us in trials and difficult time sometimes. The same test is also done by God's bestowing on us tremedous gifts from life...The purpose is the same, brother, is to come to God...to feed our spirit...to connect Him, and achieve our real purpose behind living....God is All Merciful, and All Loving if we just can really see deeply...



"[7: 168]...And We tried them with good (blessings) and evil (calamities) in order that they might turn (to God's Obedience)."


"[30:41] Disasters have spread throughout the land and sea, because of what the people have committed. He thus lets them taste the consequences of some of their works, that they may return (to the right works)."

"[32:21] We let them taste the smaller retribution (of this world), before they incur the greater retribution (of the Hereafter), that they may (take a hint and) reform."

"[9:126] See they not that they are tested once or twice in every year ? Still they turn not in repentance, neither pay they heed."

 

[Snoopy]

Fear is so often used in the great monotheisms.
Religions, and here I am not constrained just to the big monotheisms, play to the fears we have naturally in a world full of risk of varying degree.

Why conflate the two? When I read your first sentence I wasn't going to bother voting or commenting. But then you mix it up with the second sentence so I've voted.

Fear plays no part in my beliefs. Period. As the Yanks say.

s.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hello, Tao

Hi and DiB DiB DiB to Morooco,

Actually, you seem to look at the subject from a very different point of view that has nothing to do with the real reality of the notion of fear in religion as mine is concerned..

Evidently not!!

Allah/God is not a god of revenge at all. He is free from all needs, and He can stand alone with nobody/nothing. Hence, no one can harm Him, and hence make Him vengeful.

yet...

.....making one afraid is the core of mercy, putting one in trouble is the core of bringing peace, making balance, and restoring equilibrium...if we only deeply see..

is validated with....

Look, brother, at the purpose behind God putting us in trials and difficult time sometimes. The same test is also done by God's bestowing on us tremedous gifts from life...The purpose is the same, brother, is to come to God...to feed our spirit...to connect Him, and achieve our real purpose behind living....God is All Merciful, and All Loving if we just can really see deeply...

And then a series ignorant superstitions or barely veiled political threat.....

"[7: 168]...And We tried them with good (blessings) and evil (calamities) in order that they might turn (to God's Obedience)."


"[30:41] Disasters have spread throughout the land and sea, because of what the people have committed. He thus lets them taste the consequences of some of their works, that they may return (to the right works)."

"[32:21] We let them taste the smaller retribution (of this world), before they incur the greater retribution (of the Hereafter), that they may (take a hint and) reform."

"[9:126] See they not that they are tested once or twice in every year ? Still they turn not in repentance, neither pay they heed."

My mindset cannot be constrained by the rantings contained in a single volume of contentious authorship compiled so many centuries ago. Fear is a complex human emotion and tying its comprehension to a faith paradigm is only asking for trouble.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Why conflate the two?

To illicit your participation

Fear plays no part in my beliefs. Period. As the Yanks say.

s.

Good, I think that important to happiness and mental well-being. If you must have a belief it should have at least that intellectual grounding. If you have a god you fear you have the wrong god....or perhaps have masochistic tendencies? The concept of rationalised fear of a god can only be an oppressive negative pressure on the psyche as far as I am concerned. If you are going to have a god it should be entirely cute n cuddly.

 

[Snoopy]

To illicit your participation

I'm so predictable.

Good, I think that important to happiness and mental well-being. If you must have a belief it should have at least that intellectual grounding. If you have a god you fear you have the wrong god....or perhaps have masochistic tendencies? The concept of rationalised fear of a god can only be an oppressive negative pressure on the psyche as far as I am concerned. If you are going to have a god it should be entirely cute n cuddly.

Well I ain't got one. Not the anthromorphised type beardy one anyway.

s.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I'm so predictable.



Well I ain't got one. Not the anthromorphised type beardy one anyway.

s.

Well this one is free to a good home should you want it...

 

[path_of_one]

I can't answer the poll as it is.

I believe you reap what you sow, not only physically but cosmologically over lifetimes.

I do not fear this. I do have a healthy respect for it.

Kind of like the ocean. I don't fear the ocean, but I have a lot of respect for it. After all, it could kill me under certain circumstances.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I can't answer the poll as it is.

I believe you reap what you sow, not only physically but cosmologically over lifetimes.

I do not fear this. I do have a healthy respect for it.

Kind of like the ocean. I don't fear the ocean, but I have a lot of respect for it. After all, it could kill me under certain circumstances.

There is no way to cop out!! You either have fear or you do not!

 

[citizenzen]

When I look at nature outside of our anthropomorphic stereotypes I see no hint of any vengeance being played out in the cosmos. And I mean no hint emphatically. Nature is entirely ambivalent in the face of such notions. We see fear only in highly evolved animals that have the cognitive capacity to recognise and react to threat. It is an animal survival mechanism and thus not uniquely bestowed with original sin in the fall of man. Fear is an evolved animal response not a created state.

Another observation of Tao's that I completely agree with.

A note about karma...

IMO, it is a misunderstood concept. It is often seen as a variation on, "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." But that would require a cosmic recording device or a omniscient [vengeful] God. That is not karma.

Everything in the universe is in motion and humans have the ability to consciously choose some of their movements. These choices of "where we go", "what we do" and "how do we do it" help to determine our physical, mental, emotional, social and cultural states that coalesce into the present moment. That is karma.

There is no way to cop out!! You either have fear or you do not!

path_of_one said she(?) had transformed fear into respect. That is a noble act to accomplish.

I try to melt fear in the cauldron of compassion. But we all have our methods.

 

[c0de]

Do you fear a God?

Yes

How do you perceive and embody that fear?

The recognition of zero control. Paradoxically, this is also the most fearless sensation one can experience.

Why do you think your God told your prophets to tell you to fear his vindictiveness?

To save us from worrying needlessly i.e. fearing that which can neither benefit or harm us.

Does such a fear tangibly seem more about social politics being hijacked by religion, (and used with great moral ambiguity),?

Fear is a psychological property. It is utilized by every institution for practical purposes. From the familly, to the workplace. Those institutions are made of conscious entities with practical and selfish motives.

How can fear be hijacked by "religion"? Are you saying religion is a person, or a conscious entity? On the other hand, if you choose to switch your position now analyze religion as an institution which uses fear for purposes of social politics, then you have to analyze the institution itself. And that institution will invariable turn out to be materialistic, just like every other.

But if you want to analyze the commandments of religions themselves as an independent social control tactic, then you have to first analyze the source of the religion. In this case: God. The point of view is either thiestic, or materialistic. You either choose to analyze the institution, or you choose to analyze God. You can't do both at the same time.

This is why an atheist's conception of fear of God itself is different from a thiest's. Where as you believe fear to be a property of tyranny, I say this property only applies to materialistic institutions, and point out the fact that this can not apply to God because God Himself tells man to not fear any materialistic entity. Thereby liberating man fromt he chains of temporal enslavement.

In short: fear of God, liberates man, from fear of anything else.

 

[Netti-Netti]

There is 'retribution,' but it is not G-d's punishment.

I think the thread title is getting at a religious concept that makes more sense in a larger context:

149:6.3 " The `fear of the Lord' has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of G-d, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living G-d, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to G-d that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth.

149:6.4 " Intelligent children do not fear their father in order that they may receive good gifts from his hand; but having already received the abundance of good things bestowed by the dictates of the father's affection for his sons and daughters....

​

More here: The Second Preaching Tour; The Urantia Book: Paper 149

 

[Tao_Equus]

then you have to first analyze the source of the religion. In this case: God.

Man is the source of religion.

This is why an atheist's conception of fear of God itself is different from a thiest's. Where as you believe fear to be a property of tyranny, I say this property only applies to materialistic institutions, and point out the fact that this can not apply to God because God Himself tells man to not fear any materialistic entity. Thereby liberating man fromt he chains of temporal enslavement.

Nonsense, just look at DiB's first post here!! That is enslavement to a few lines in an old book.

In short: fear of God, liberates man, from fear of anything else.

It can in a sense, but that would be delusional.

 

[Tao_Equus]

149:6.4 " Intelligent children do not fear their father in order that they may receive good gifts from his hand; but having already received the abundance of good things bestowed by the dictates of the father's affection for his sons and daughters....
​

I like that.
​

 

[c0de]

It can in a sense, but that would be delusional.

"delusional" eh? ... like your statement that man can be enslaved: by a book ? (LOL!)

yea... them books boy, i tell ya... they are quite the:

 

[Tao_Equus]

"delusional" eh? ... like your statement that man can be enslaved: by a book ?

Come on c0de.... you know well many millions are.

 

[c0de]

Come on c0de.... you know well many millions are.

No one is enslaved by a book.

Everyone has a creed, a code: a belief.

And you atheists are no different then anyone else.

 

[wil]

Poo, as I contemplate my response, and scroll through the responses, it appears you already wrote for us again.

Tao, yes we can back out. Your poll does not fit my belief.

Fear, no, respect yes, knowledge yes.

If I were to shoot an arrow straight up...would I worry about divine retribution or a natural event...the application of gravity and the odds that either where I stood or where I moved to the arrow returning.

So yup, I would fear if I were to shoot the arrow up. And hence my reason to not shoot the arrow up as I have knowledge and respect of Gravity.

Now I don't have an entity G!d whom I am concerned about vengence.

Call it Karma or a law of reciprocity I do have a belief that what I do affects my life, that I have a basis in control.

So do I not rob, steal, rape, pillage, plunder...because I fear jail. No, if I were to do the above actions it would put me in a postition to fear jail. I have a respect for the law and decide to avoid the potential conflict.