Zenda71
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is my evil plot... it's samsara baby. Round and round.
Sorry 'bout that. I didn't read carefully enough... just ignore!
A Look at the Kalama Sutta
- Thread starter seattlegal
- Start date
Yes, that is my evil plot... it's samsara baby. Round and round.
Sorry 'bout that. I didn't read carefully enough... just ignore!
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Guessing from your infinitely fruitful pool of sagacious quotes a suitable verse will come to youHmm, if the butterfly symbolizes transformation and evolution, then the reverse butterfly would symbolize what? Devolution?
{ derailment over
}
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
Vajradhara,
It is an interesting debate, whether the Kalama sutra was meant for Buddhists as well as non-Buddhists. You and I seem to be sitting on opposite sides of the fence as far as this debate is concerned, but that that should not stop us from considering some important questions together.
You said that, once a being has Taken Refuge in the Triple Jewel there is a whole other set of Suttas/Sutras which apply to how a being approaches the Dharma and questions the teachers. Please share them with us. How does a student deal with a teacher who is dishonest and criminal? I have heard of cases of male Buddhist teachers taking sexual advantage of their female students. What do the Sutras say about this?
Then, there is the more difficult problem of doctrinal disagreements between teacher and student. As we all know, the differences between the different Buddhist traditions are as big as night and day. There are cases of Buddhist students who find teachings from one Buddhist teacher unacceptable, then go to a different Buddhist tradition and become quite happy. What do the Sutras say about fundamental disagreements with a Buddhist teacher's teaching?
With palms together,
Nick
It is an interesting debate, whether the Kalama sutra was meant for Buddhists as well as non-Buddhists. You and I seem to be sitting on opposite sides of the fence as far as this debate is concerned, but that that should not stop us from considering some important questions together.
You said that, once a being has Taken Refuge in the Triple Jewel there is a whole other set of Suttas/Sutras which apply to how a being approaches the Dharma and questions the teachers. Please share them with us. How does a student deal with a teacher who is dishonest and criminal? I have heard of cases of male Buddhist teachers taking sexual advantage of their female students. What do the Sutras say about this?
Then, there is the more difficult problem of doctrinal disagreements between teacher and student. As we all know, the differences between the different Buddhist traditions are as big as night and day. There are cases of Buddhist students who find teachings from one Buddhist teacher unacceptable, then go to a different Buddhist tradition and become quite happy. What do the Sutras say about fundamental disagreements with a Buddhist teacher's teaching?
With palms together,
Nick
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste nick,
thank you for the post.
agreed.
once a being has gone for Refuge the Buddhist teachings are explained in greater depth with more nuance and precision for the beings to whom it was expounded. Buddhists and groups of Buddhists are different and thus require different teachings to help them further along the path.
an example of this sort of Sutta is: MN 39: Maha-Assapura Sutta the Maha-Assapura Sutta.
a great many of this class of Sutta are given to the monastics so whenever you see a Sutta that address the monks or nuns you can know that it is a Sutta which was given to beings that are Buddhist rather than beings that are not.
being dishonest and criminal are different things.
the local laws determine if a being is criminal or not and, if so, the authorities should arrest the criminal.
being dishonest (i presume that you are speaking in regards to explication of the Dharma rather than lying in general) with regards to Dharma instruction is more difficult for a novice to discern however, here again, the Buddha has left instructions on how to test teachers to determine if they are authentic or not. one of the ways to test them is to see if their teachings are consonant with the Dharma, to wit: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta the Bhumija Sutta.
avoiding sexual misconduct is part of the going for Refuge Vows and i would include a teacher using his/her position of influence to gain sexual favors in that category.
it may well be the case that this is well known to you but it is not a view that i share nor most of the Buddhists that i know, for that matter however we must be clear when we speak on this point as there are two factors to consider, the scriptural aspect and the philosophical aspect. there are, for instance, several different philosophical schools of thought found within the Buddha Dharma even within a particular Vehicle such as the Mahayana. within the Mahayana there are 4 (perhaps 5 if you want to seperate Yogachara) different philosophical schools of thought yet there are, literally, dozens of practice lineages.
all of that said, the traditional method for resolving doctrinal disputes is the Buddhist Council, the most recent one was held in 1954 and concluded in 1956. Buddhist councils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the Dharma rain falls equally upon all and each being responds according to it's capacity.
the Buddhist teachings are as vast as they are (over 10,000 suttas, shastras, tantras et al) as they are addressed to beings with varying capacities and varying positions along the path. the simple fact of the matter is that all Buddhist teachings are not applicable for all beings. within the Suttas themselves the Buddha makes a clear distinction betwixt monastics and laiety even whilst affirming that the Final Fruit is the same for both.
one of my favorite guru's frequently mentions in his dharma talk that if we find something resonates we should pay attention to it, if we don't like something, just ignore it.
which all gets back to capacities and potentials, accurately recognizing where a being is and what capacities they have and which teaching will help them.
"know well what leads you forward and what holds you back." Buddha Shakyamuni
metta,
~v
thank you for the post.
agreed.
once a being has gone for Refuge the Buddhist teachings are explained in greater depth with more nuance and precision for the beings to whom it was expounded. Buddhists and groups of Buddhists are different and thus require different teachings to help them further along the path.
an example of this sort of Sutta is: MN 39: Maha-Assapura Sutta the Maha-Assapura Sutta.
a great many of this class of Sutta are given to the monastics so whenever you see a Sutta that address the monks or nuns you can know that it is a Sutta which was given to beings that are Buddhist rather than beings that are not.
being dishonest and criminal are different things.
the local laws determine if a being is criminal or not and, if so, the authorities should arrest the criminal.
being dishonest (i presume that you are speaking in regards to explication of the Dharma rather than lying in general) with regards to Dharma instruction is more difficult for a novice to discern however, here again, the Buddha has left instructions on how to test teachers to determine if they are authentic or not. one of the ways to test them is to see if their teachings are consonant with the Dharma, to wit: SN 12.25: Bhumija Sutta the Bhumija Sutta.
avoiding sexual misconduct is part of the going for Refuge Vows and i would include a teacher using his/her position of influence to gain sexual favors in that category.
it may well be the case that this is well known to you but it is not a view that i share nor most of the Buddhists that i know, for that matter however we must be clear when we speak on this point as there are two factors to consider, the scriptural aspect and the philosophical aspect. there are, for instance, several different philosophical schools of thought found within the Buddha Dharma even within a particular Vehicle such as the Mahayana. within the Mahayana there are 4 (perhaps 5 if you want to seperate Yogachara) different philosophical schools of thought yet there are, literally, dozens of practice lineages.
all of that said, the traditional method for resolving doctrinal disputes is the Buddhist Council, the most recent one was held in 1954 and concluded in 1956. Buddhist councils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the Dharma rain falls equally upon all and each being responds according to it's capacity.
the Buddhist teachings are as vast as they are (over 10,000 suttas, shastras, tantras et al) as they are addressed to beings with varying capacities and varying positions along the path. the simple fact of the matter is that all Buddhist teachings are not applicable for all beings. within the Suttas themselves the Buddha makes a clear distinction betwixt monastics and laiety even whilst affirming that the Final Fruit is the same for both.
one of my favorite guru's frequently mentions in his dharma talk that if we find something resonates we should pay attention to it, if we don't like something, just ignore it.
which all gets back to capacities and potentials, accurately recognizing where a being is and what capacities they have and which teaching will help them.
"know well what leads you forward and what holds you back." Buddha Shakyamuni
metta,
~v
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
How about Alara Kalama, the Buddha's first teacher when he went out on his search for the unexcelled state of sublime peace? He taught the Buddha how to access the Dimension of Nothingness.
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search
"So, at a later time, while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — and while my parents, unwilling, were crying with tears streaming down their faces — I shaved off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness.
"Having thus gone forth in search of what might be skillful, seeking the unexcelled state of sublime peace, I went to Alara Kalama and, on arrival, said to him: 'Friend Kalama, I want to practice in this doctrine & discipline.'
"When this was said, he replied to me, 'You may stay here, my friend. This doctrine is such that a wise person can soon enter & dwell in his own teacher's knowledge, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.'
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.
"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.
"I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'
"'Yes, my friend...'
"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'
"'It is a gain for us, my friend, a great gain for us, that we have such a companion in the holy life. So the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge. And the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. The Dhamma I know is the Dhamma you know; the Dhamma you know is the Dhamma I know. As I am, so are you; as you are, so am I. Come friend, let us now lead this community together.'
"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
Interesting about the reference to the direct knowledge of the Sphere of Nothingness leading the Buddha to becoming dissatisfied with it. (dukkha?)"So, at a later time, while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — and while my parents, unwilling, were crying with tears streaming down their faces — I shaved off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness.
"Having thus gone forth in search of what might be skillful, seeking the unexcelled state of sublime peace, I went to Alara Kalama and, on arrival, said to him: 'Friend Kalama, I want to practice in this doctrine & discipline.'
"When this was said, he replied to me, 'You may stay here, my friend. This doctrine is such that a wise person can soon enter & dwell in his own teacher's knowledge, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.'
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.
"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.
"I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'
"'Yes, my friend...'
"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'
"'It is a gain for us, my friend, a great gain for us, that we have such a companion in the holy life. So the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge. And the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. The Dhamma I know is the Dhamma you know; the Dhamma you know is the Dhamma I know. As I am, so are you; as you are, so am I. Come friend, let us now lead this community together.'
"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
(I still get excited when I read this thread title )
)(I still get excited when I read this thread title
Perhaps a quick prayer/meditation?
s.
Vajradhara
One of Many
(I still get excited when I read this thread title
hehe
it's understandable... we could have a thread on the Kama Sutra, if you'd like, but i think we'd need to have it under the general ERP section
metta,
~v
it's understandable... we could have a thread on the Kama Sutra, if you'd like, but i think we'd need to have it under the general ERP section
I was thinking the EEK section.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I found this really cool site that has some Suttas with both the Pali and the English translation, including the Kalama Sutta. (It's called the Kesamutti Sutta in Pali.)
In order to see the Romanized Pali letters properly, you'll need to install the Romanized Pali fonts, which you can get here, along with instructions for how to install them on your computer.
One interesting thing that I came acrossed when checking out the Pali of the Kalama Sutta was the reference in this part of the sutta to the brahmavihāra: sublime states, four divine abodes: mettā - loving-kindness, karunā - compassion, muditā - sympathetic joy, upekkhā - equanimity:
In order to see the Romanized Pali letters properly, you'll need to install the Romanized Pali fonts, which you can get here, along with instructions for how to install them on your computer.
One interesting thing that I came acrossed when checking out the Pali of the Kalama Sutta was the reference in this part of the sutta to the brahmavihāra: sublime states, four divine abodes: mettā - loving-kindness, karunā - compassion, muditā - sympathetic joy, upekkhā - equanimity:
“Thus it is, Kalamas, that the Noble Disciple has made an end of greed, has made an end of malice, is not confused, is awake and mindful - endowed with the intention of kindness {Pali--mettā,} he dwells pervading the first direction; likewise in the second, likewise in the third and likewise in the fourth. Thus he dwells pervading the above, below and across; entirely and in every way the world is endowed with this intention of kindness - abundant, great, all-permeating, and free of malice and hostility.”
“Endowed with the intention of compassion {Pali--karunā,} he dwells pervading the first direction; likewise in the second, likewise in the third and likewise in the fourth. Thus he dwells pervading the above, below and across; entirely and in every way the world is endowed with this intention of compassion - abundant, great, all-permeating and free of malice and hostility.”
“Endowed with the intention of sympathetic good-will {Pali--muditā,} he dwells pervading the first direction; likewise in the second, likewise in the third and likewise in the fourth. Thus he dwells pervading the above, below and across; entirely and in every way the world is endowed with this intention of sympathetic good-will - abundant, great, all-permeating and free of malice and hostility.”
“Endowed with the intention of equanimity {Pali--upekkhā,} he dwells pervading the first direction; likewise in the second, likewise in the third and likewise in the fourth. Thus he dwells pervading the above, below and across; entirely and in every way the world is endowed with this intention of equanimity - abundant, great, all-permeating and free of malice and hostility.”
These are qualities of "a Noble Disciple" {Pali--ariyasāvako,} one of whom you can accept, regardless of his teachings regarding an afterworld or lack thereof (according to the four certitudes which follow next in the Sutta.)“Endowed with the intention of compassion {Pali--karunā,} he dwells pervading the first direction; likewise in the second, likewise in the third and likewise in the fourth. Thus he dwells pervading the above, below and across; entirely and in every way the world is endowed with this intention of compassion - abundant, great, all-permeating and free of malice and hostility.”
“Endowed with the intention of sympathetic good-will {Pali--muditā,} he dwells pervading the first direction; likewise in the second, likewise in the third and likewise in the fourth. Thus he dwells pervading the above, below and across; entirely and in every way the world is endowed with this intention of sympathetic good-will - abundant, great, all-permeating and free of malice and hostility.”
“Endowed with the intention of equanimity {Pali--upekkhā,} he dwells pervading the first direction; likewise in the second, likewise in the third and likewise in the fourth. Thus he dwells pervading the above, below and across; entirely and in every way the world is endowed with this intention of equanimity - abundant, great, all-permeating and free of malice and hostility.”