What Abdul-Baha said on theology . . .

[Sen McGlinn]

Namaste and Welcome Sen,
Sen, without a clergy, with only lay speakers, how could one expect different?

By developing a culture of learning, and a "civil society" of institutions of Bahai learning: schools, electronic libraries, publishing houses, discussion groups and organisations promoting various kinds of scripture study courses. Your question supposes that the development of religious understanding can only happen through the community's administrative authorities and their official experts - the clergy. But the lessons of the late 20th century, with regard to the limited capacity of governments in society, and importance of civil society institutions, also apply to religious communities. The centrally-directed, rationally-planned models are easily out-performed by organic, diffused, networking models of development.

~~ Sen McGlinn

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Hi Sen,

The resurrection of Christ is the cornerstone of Christianity and denied by Baha'i theology..

?? What Bahai theologian denied the resurrection? I have never encountered that.

Abdu'l-Baha's take on the resurrection ht tp:/ /reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-23.html
(remove the spaces) seems to be just the same as Paul's, which is the oldest strand of the resurrection narratives. The emphasis is on the living presence rather than on the empty tomb. But that's natural - it was the living presence that created the church, which preached Christ risen, which led to questions and derision, which led to the empty tomb stories. If there had not been an active church that was seen as a challenge to the status quo, there would not have been the criticism and derision.

~~ Sen McGlinn

 

[Postmaster]

@ LM as much as I deny i'am a Christian simply because I don't think like a devout one, I'am a Christian never the less by christening and practice. My views are strongly agnostic thiestic at the moment and I can't see them shifting. But honestly how truthful is the bible? I think its divine but I won't deny that there are many things made up or concealed in the bible, the resurrection whether it happened or not doesn't make any difference to me. I know that previous storys of other deitys of antiquity were also resurrected, afew of them. It was important for people that it did happen at some point in history, today Christians don't need it to validate their faith in Christ.

 

[Postmaster]

Just want to say I really love the 7 valleys by Bahauallah. I read it along time ago and didnt think anything of it. And afew months ago I read it again and its meaning hit me. Great piece of mystical work. Does the 7 rays of theosophists seems to have a similar theme?

Bahai
The Valley of Search
The Valley of Love
The Valley of Knowledge
The Valley of Unity
The Valley of Contentment
The Valley of Wonderment
The Valley of True Poverty and Absolute Nothingness

Theosophist
1st ray Will - Power
2nd ray Love-Wisdom
3rd ray Active Intelligence
4th ray Harmony through conflict
5th ray Concrete Science
6th ray Love-Devotion
7th ray Ceremonial Order

 

[arthra]

Well hey there Postmaster!

Welcome back...

Good to hear you are reading some of the Baha'i Writings..

Just from my own perspective I don't personally see the theosophical rays as really related.. but anyhow, Abdul-Baha and later Martha Roots gave some talks early in the twentieth century to theosophists and these have been recorded.

While we acknowledge there are undoubtedly some salutory principles in theosophy we basically have some areas of disagreement with them as well...

- Art

 

[lunamoth]

?? What Bahai theologian denied the resurrection? I have never encountered that.

Abdu'l-Baha's take on the resurrection ht tp:/ /reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-23.html
(remove the spaces) seems to be just the same as Paul's, which is the oldest strand of the resurrection narratives. The emphasis is on the living presence rather than on the empty tomb. But that's natural - it was the living presence that created the church, which preached Christ risen, which led to questions and derision, which led to the empty tomb stories. If there had not been an active church that was seen as a challenge to the status quo, there would not have been the criticism and derision.

~~ Sen McGlinn

Hi Sen,

Thank you for your reply.

Paul and what has become the orthodox (or traditional) church believe in a bodily resurrection of Christ and eventually for all mankind. What exactly that bodily resurrection is? I agree is an interesting question with room for a lot of reflection. Bottom line, IMO we just can't really know what that means. The relationship will be a transformation, like that from the acorn to the oak.

Baha'is emphasize a spiritual resurrection, as does Abdu'l Baha in SAQ (not to mention a number of liberal Christian scholars ). It is a different theology with somewhat different ramifications on how we view our bodies and the earth as we live in it now.

 

[lunamoth]

@ LM as much as I deny i'am a Christian simply because I don't think like a devout one, I'am a Christian never the less by christening and practice. My views are strongly agnostic thiestic at the moment and I can't see them shifting. But honestly how truthful is the bible? I think its divine but I won't deny that there are many things made up or concealed in the bible, the resurrection whether it happened or not doesn't make any difference to me. I know that previous storys of other deitys of antiquity were also resurrected, afew of them. It was important for people that it did happen at some point in history, today Christians don't need it to validate their faith in Christ.

Hi Postmaster.

I think you take a rather cynical view of the Bible. There are many inconsistencies in the Bible...it was written and edited by multiple people over thousands of years, and the various books are making different points using different approaches. However, I do not think it was written to mislead or conceal.

I don't think of the Resurrection of Christ as something that validated him as the Son of God. I think that would have been accompished no matter what. The Resurrection is the promise to Christians that we too will be raised with Christ. Is it the only way imaginable? Not to my way of thinking. But, it is what was reported and believed by Paul and the early Christian witnesses. I don't see any reason to argue with that.

You wrote: I think its divine but I won't deny that there are many things made up or concealed in the bible, the resurrection whether it happened or not doesn't make any difference to me.

It does make a difference to me. I would never say that anyone needs to believe the way I do, or the way the traditional church does, to be a Christian. But likewise, I don't accept that another religion's theology on the matter must be the correct one.

Everyone is welcome to grapple with the Bible and the teachings of the church, in the light of their own experience of God, and understand for themselves what it means to be a Christian, to be in relationship with God. I wish for the absolute best in your walk with God however you understand it. If you are curious about my walk with God, I am happy to share it.

I don't think it is helpful to debate these matters.

Peace, luna

 

[wil]

But the lessons of the late 20th century, with regard to the limited capacity of governments in society, and importance of civil society institutions, also apply to religious communities. The centrally-directed, rationally-planned models are easily out-performed by organic, diffused, networking models of development.

~~ Sen McGlinn

With that however you end up with a diversity of teachings eh? Not to say all other religions haven't the same issues, even with a centralized structure. Tis what Rome tried to do 1700 years ago and that was a couple hundred years after Christianity was around...

So like you said...we'll see where your at a millenia or three from now...

 

[Postmaster]

@ LM personally I believe that if a Muslim, a Christian and a Jew lived there lives similarly in non dogmatic virtue, their spiritual outcome will be the same. I've come to be very certain about this. Christianity, Judaism or Islam doesn’t spread this very imporant message very well.

 

[wil]

@ LM personally I believe that if a Muslim, a Christian and a Jew lived there lives similarly in non dogmatic virtue, their spiritual outcome will be the same. I've come to be very certain about this. Christianity, Judaism or Islam doesn’t spread this very imporant message very well.

Namaste Pm,

I agree in theory...I believe you are correct despite my not knowing what this outcome is. However I'd say most Christians and Muslims would disagree.

I'll also add that that applies to all, beyond the Abrahamic.

 

[lunamoth]

@ LM personally I believe that if a Muslim, a Christian and a Jew lived there lives similarly in non dogmatic virtue, their spiritual outcome will be the same. I've come to be very certain about this. Christianity, Judaism or Islam doesn’t spread this very imporant message very well.

Hi PM,

I would not aruge with any of the above.

What do you mean by 'spiritual outcome?'

What about people in earth-religions, Buddhism, Hinduism, non-theism and atheism?

 

[Postmaster]

@ Will I'm glad we agree on something haha.. Thats as far as I go with it though. All non dogmatic virtues are to a certain extent dogmatic and take different personal directions.

 

[Postmaster]

@ LM By thier spiritual outcome I mean they will end up in the same place in the after life. I mean all religions but Im just using the above as examples.

 

[lunamoth]

@ LM By thier spiritual outcome I mean they will end up in the same place in the after life. I mean all religions but Im just using Christian, Jews and Muslims as examples.

Thanks PM.

 

[wil]

@ Will I'm glad we agree on something haha.. Thats as far as I go with it though. All non dogmatic virtues are to a certain extent dogmatic and take different personal directions.

Why do you exclude the dogmatic? Do you mean radical or fundamental?

What I hear you saying is that if one were to follow a virtuous life, a love your neighbor, golden rule type of existence, then one would receive the same awards regardless of path. Is that about correct?

 

[Postmaster]

dogmatic can mean alot of things. But yeah thats the jist.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Hi Sen,

Thank you for your reply.

Paul and what has become the orthodox (or traditional) church believe in a bodily resurrection of Christ and eventually for all mankind. What exactly that bodily resurrection is? I agree is an interesting question with room for a lot of reflection. Bottom line, IMO we just can't really know what that means. The relationship will be a transformation, like that from the acorn to the oak.

Baha'is emphasize a spiritual resurrection, as does Abdu'l Baha in SAQ (not to mention a number of liberal Christian scholars ). It is a different theology with somewhat different ramifications on how we view our bodies and the earth as we live in it now.

I think you have passed from the resurrection of Christ, into eschatology, without noticing it. The question was about Bahai beliefs concerning the resurrection of Christ. The oldest strand of those narratives is that from Paul, on the road to Damascus, and I do not see anything bodily there. It is a spiritual presence that he encounters, and that changes him radically. That is also what Abdu'l-Baha gives as his interpretation of the resurrection, in Some Answered Questions. Similarly the Pauline formula of dying and rising in Christ: isn't this we do spiritually in this life?