The first and the second Adam

[soleil10]

Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

Jesus came as the second Adam to restore the failure of the first Adam.

If the first Adam had not failed would he has reached perfection and become one with God like Jesus did Are we not all called to be Christ like and as Jesus told us to become perfect as our Father in Heaven.

If the first Adam is not God, can Jesus, the second Adam be God ?

 

[wil]

Yes a thought as proposed with the first adam man was put into a deep sleep, forgetting he was made in his image, with the second adam man was awoke, I and the Father are One.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

Jesus came as the second Adam to restore the failure of the first Adam.

If the first Adam had not failed would he has reached perfection and become one with God like Jesus did Are we not all called to be Christ like and as Jesus told us to become perfect as our Father in Heaven.

If the first Adam is not God, can Jesus, the second Adam be God ?

But, what does that mean in practical terms? I mean, is the planet being healed because of it, or people becoming more peaceable because of it? What is it supposed to do, and what is the evidence that it's doing that? Cool, Jesus squares away the Adam problem, and so...which makes ...better. Or, what?

Chris

 

[path_of_one]

That's what I can't square with history and pre-history as well, Chris.

From a historical standpoint, people were mostly sustainable and mostly peacable as hunter-gatherers. They got increasingly worse as the population grew and they went toward state-level sociopolitical organization.

Jesus' coming did not stop this process. In fact, people continued to get more violent, sometimes using Christianity as justification. Our life expectancy is longer, at least for those in wealthy nations who are privileged, mostly due to medical breakthroughs, but our rates of violence and war are worse. We aren't sustainable. We impoverish most of the people in the world to feed the greed of the few.

I can't really see anything getting better. I can't see how original sin has anything to do with it, either, since from a historical standpoint it is clear that the causes of increased inequality, poverty, unsustainability, and violence/war are not found in "original sin" (which would indicate some sort of static and constant level of these problems) but rather in sociopolitical formation and increased population.



I believe that Jesus is my savior and is the bridge between humanity and divinity. But personally, I can't reconcile the concept of original sin with the data.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well, Kim, even a hardened cynic like me has a hard time denying that there is benefit to belief. It may be a placebo like effect, but those who believe actually do receive in positive psychological ways. Perhaps we are merely saved from the neurosis that comes from being left entirely to our own devices.

Chris

 

[path_of_one]

Oh, I think there are many benefits to belief systems. I just can't see much benefit to the belief in original sin.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I was thinking of Kierkegaard, and playing with exchanging the words sin and neurosis. I don't know what to do, practically, with metaphysical hierarchies. I use them all the time as a sort of interface between concepts and constructs and the nuts and bolts world. I don't know what Jesus saves us from physically.

Actually, I think I'm rambling. Good night.

Chris

 

[iBrian]

If the first Adam had not failed would he has reached perfection and become one with God like Jesus did Are we not all called to be Christ like and as Jesus told us to become perfect as our Father in Heaven.

Hm, but how would this come into play?

Genesis - Old Testament: King James Vesion (KJV)

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

 

[soleil10]

Hm, but how would this come into play?
Genesis - Old Testament: King James Vesion (KJV)

The point of this thread was to say that if Jesus came as the second Adam and Adam himself was a man then Jesus was also a man and not God himself.
The meaning of "son of God" is a spiritual meaning telling us that he was one with God.

In the OT, in the NT and in Revelation reaching the tree of life is Adam, Jesus and the Messiah of the second advent goal.

Adam lost access to the Tree of Live as we see inGenesis 3:22-24 (New International Version)

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [a] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life

For me "The man has now become like one of us" means that Adam lost his innocence during the process of the human fall. He fell before reaching perfection.
For instance if someone committed adultery, he would experience love outside of marriage and feels the guilt of betraying his or her spouse. That person experienced evil/sin but did not need to have such experience. Adam and Eve lost their original innocence and affected their descendant.

 

[Dream]

A good metaphor is a true one that really means something in the real world, only you don't know it at first. Every 'metaphorical construct' has this at its heart and is about as meaningful as a single kiss. It could be full of meaning or empty. Its true meaning is hidden until you know it so well that you are connected. Most people rely upon their parents in this matter, sort of like an arranged marriage. If they give you a really good metaphor in childhood, then your mind will find substance in it.

Genesis takes this principle into account and is like an egg or childhood songs. At first you only sing it for the tune, but when you are old enough you suddenly realize that it has taught you the alphabet, the times-tables, how to live successfully etc. It hatches into another you, a new you.

Folks in here do not always openly say what they are thinking, but test an idea internally whilst spinning aspects of it out into the forum. What you write is a metaphor for what you truly think. You write hoping to make an impact as well as to receive one. Same as in real life with your 'real friends', and you don't really know your mate or your friends until you have made them and they have made you into something else-to each other. That is what scripture is supposed to be like.

 

[wil]

And these metaphors...as your life experience and situations change they change as well...a deeper understanding or a more practical, current, valuable understanding can come into play...

"Your biography is written and it is all in this book" (Amalia Frank, four foot nothin 80 year old preacher lady would say as she held up the bible)

 

[iBrian]

The meaning of "son of God" is a spiritual meaning telling us that he was one with God.

In Judaism it's quite a loaded phrase, specifically Benei Elohim.

Somehow I think the Christian interpretation is intended more like the Roman Dei Filius (literally, Son of God) rather than Benei Elohim (Sons of God - ie, powerful spiritual figures).

Unless I'm getting my meanings mixed up.

 

[Marsh]

If the first Adam is not God, can Jesus, the second Adam be God ?

Today's Lesson In Elementary Logic

If P, then Q

Not P

Therefore, not Q



This is a logical fallacy. If you phrase propositions in fallacy form, then they appear to be self-evidently true. In this case, though, we could then assert the following argument:

If you pick your nose too much, it will bleed.

You didn't pick your nose.

Therefore, it didn't bleed.

That's not necessarily true-- especially if Chuck Norris is in the room, in which case everybody is liable to be bleeding from the nose, ears, and essentially every other orafice.

 

[Dream]

That's not necessarily true-- especially if Chuck Norris is in the room, in which case everybody is liable to be bleeding from the nose, ears, and essentially every other orafice.

Out! Spirit of [laughing at Chuck Norris jokes]! I command you to come out!!!! From this day forward, Marsh, you have been delivered from [laughing Chuck Norris jokes]!

 

[soleil10]

Today's Lesson In Elementary Logic
If P, then Q,Not P,Therefore, not Q
This is a logical fallacy. If you phrase propositions in fallacy form, then they appear to be self-evidently true. In this case, though, we could then assert the following argument:If you pick your nose too much, it will bleed.You didn't pick your nose.Therefore, it didn't bleed.
That's not necessarily true-- especially if Chuck Norris is in the room, in which case everybody is liable to be bleeding from the nose, ears, and essentially every other orafice.

If Jesus is came as the second Adam to restore through his obedience what was lost and if the first Adam was a man, it makes much sense that the second Adam is also a man.

Romans 5:19
For just through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

 

[wil]

If Jesus is came as the second Adam to restore through his obedience what was lost and if the first Adam was a man, it makes much sense that the second Adam is also a man.

Romans 5:19
For just through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

Should we contemplate that the first Adam was a a myth/metaphor? Does that indicate the second one is as well?

 

[soleil10]

Should we contemplate that the first Adam was a a myth/metaphor? Does that indicate the second one is as well?

It would read like this:
For just through the disobedience of the one myth the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one myth the many will be made righteous

Is this what you want to contemplate ?

 

[path_of_one]

I think Wil is probably referring to the general comparative religion definition of myth- a sacred story that conveys deeper symbolic truth. As opposed to a story that conveys literal truth. Myth engages the individual in some sort of transformation after an encounter with the deeper truth of reality. A regular literal story generally does not. This is what makes myth unique from history, science, and the news.

 

[Marsh]

If Jesus is came as the second Adam to restore through his obedience what was lost and if the first Adam was a man, it makes much sense that the second Adam is also a man.

Romans 5:19
For just through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

The Bible also says that Jesus is the lamb of God. Does that mean Adam was a lamb too?

Where did Jesus ever refer to himself as the second Adam, by the way?

 

[wil]

It would read like this:
For just through the disobedience of the one myth the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one myth the many will be made righteous

Is this what you want to contemplate ?

Sure, first what is your definition of sin? And how does myth affect one's life so? (I mean I understand acting or not acting on the moral implication or idea/story of a myth, but just in general everyone is at fault? )

I think Wil is probably referring to the general comparative religion definition of myth- a sacred story that conveys deeper symbolic truth.

thank you. I love the ever evolving deeper symbolic truths.

Even Jim Croce can make me think... "Now I got them steadily depressin', low down mind messin' Working at the car wash blues. " Talk about choice. I guess original sin and 'we aren't worthy' concepts are similar perception choices.