Happy Shavuos to those who observe it

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

*several wagons pulled by members of the delegation come in, delicious aromas wafting through the air.

*various members of the human delegation look inside and find various dairy and vegan items, including grilled portabella mushroom "cheeseburgers", salmon kulebiyaka, macaroni and cheese, several different kinds of cheesecake, vegetarian chili pot pies and lots more.

*after delivering their goods, they mingle with the guests, only leaving to nibble on fish-flavor food, drinking clean water and for using the litterboxes discretely hidden for privacy*

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[wil]

*several wagons pulled by members of the delegation come in, delicious aromas wafting through the air.

*various members of the human delegation look inside and find various dairy and vegan items, including grilled portabella mushroom "cheeseburgers", salmon kulebiyaka, macaroni and cheese, several different kinds of cheesecake, vegetarian chili pot pies and lots more.

*after delivering their goods, they mingle with the guests, only leaving to nibble on fish-flavor food, drinking clean water and for using the litterboxes discretely hidden for privacy*

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Happy Shavous to all...and now looking forward to next years counting...

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask, I know there is discussion amongst some friends of mine...is a vegan cheeseburger kosher? ie can you have vegan cheese on a hamburger and can you have cheese on a vegan burger or is a vegan cheeseburger out all together just by implication?

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Concerning grilled portabella mushroom "cheeseburgers", all one needs are grilled mushroom caps and a slice of cheese, therefore, they can be completely vegan (vegan cheese melted on the grilled mushroom cap.)

Still, there are some who feel that, because of what they represent, they'll never be kosher. bb would be better able to answer, but he'll be offline until Saturday night his time.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[pohaikawahine]

Yes, Happy Shavuos to all .... me ke aloha pumehana, poh

 

[bananabrain]

is a vegan cheeseburger kosher? ie can you have vegan cheese on a hamburger and can you have cheese on a vegan burger or is a vegan cheeseburger out all together just by implication?

well, although strictly vegetarian or vegan things can be considered kosher more or less by default if they are entirely animal-product free, they're not actually "kosher" strictly speaking unless supervised - i.e. from a kosher kitchen or restaurant. but, in principle, providing you can find dairy-free cheese and (according to my halakhic adviser) providing that you have taken steps to ensure that nobody would think that you were mixing real cheese with real meat you would be fine. so, if you are serving pareve (dairy-free) ice-cream after steak at dinner, you should really leave a label on the table if there's any risk of anyone arriving who is not 100% up to speed. to give you a pertinent example, i got my tandoori barbecue working over the weekend and, as you probably, know, the marinade involves yoghurt, which is a no-no in kashrut terms. however, i obtained alpro soya natural yoghurt which was fine and, of course, dairy-free, as well as giving the right sort of depth to the taste.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[wil]

We've got a kosher vegan place and there was a discussion there one day amongst folks as to the nature of a kosher vegan cheeseburger.

It had no meat, it had no cheese (milk), but their discussion revolved around the implication of mixing milk and meat was still contained in the combination, hence making it not kosher.

It was a letter of the law vs. intent of the law vs. intent of the sandwich vs. larger implication... quite the discussion. Reminded me about what Rabbi's must have been going around on when electricity came into being, I can just imagine them staring at a light switch and going through all the possibilities. Seems to me the determination was while flicking the switch wasn't work, but as it replaced the filling and lighting of a lamp, it replaced work, therefor intent came into play....hence the invention of timers and photo cells.

 

[Dream]

Glad you are all back again, because I missed you. That's totally screwed up, isn't it? And where is Alex?

 

[wil]

but he'll be offline until Saturday night his time.

I run a local annual juggling convention. Starts Friday at 5 and ends Sunday at 5. Public show Friday night. Now amongst jugglers there is an inordinately high Jewish contingent. Not so many observant or orthodox as they'll be there juggling most the weekend. But those that are...will time the leaving of their neighborhood exactly and make it to the public show by intermission...(they don't go by the three star method, they go by the time posted on their synagogue supplied calendars...)

 

[bob x]

The Shavu'oth ("groupings of seven") is one of the more striking survivals of the base-seven system of counting (lightly discussed in an earlier thread) which the Hebrews appear to have used in antiquity especially for time-counting. Seven days make a week; originally, seven days or sometimes eight, to make one quarter-phase of the moon. Seven weeks make an omer or "bushel" of days; and then seven omers should make a year. Unfortunately, 49 seven-day weeks are short of the true year, by three and a fraction weeks; and lengthening the weeks doesn't quite do it, since 49 quarter-phases (12 1/4 lunar months) are short by three and a fraction days. The counts were kept on dice: the use of dice as gaming pieces is very old (Sumerians had a kind of "parcheesi" board) but they were invented as counters, which can be used either for base-six (Sumerians for some reason did a lot of math in base six) or base-seven (using "blank" as well as a die set 1 to 6). It takes three slots to track the position within the year (which day of the "week"; which week of the omer; which omer in the year), or five if you also track which year it is within the "shemitta" (7-year) and "jubilee" (50-year) cycles. I keep my dice in a case with leather strips setting off the slots; an older solution was to use one die, or just memory, for tracking the day of the week, and using a domino (two die-settings, including blank as one of the options, carved into a rectangle of wood) to notate the higher settings that would only change more slowly. The problem (and we do not know what all the ancient solutions for it were; the present form of the Jewish calendar is not particularly old) is that when you reach the dreaded SIX-SIX-SIX at the end of the year, there is a gap of "a time, two times, and a fraction of a time" before you get back to ZERO-ZERO-ZERO.

This particular omer, from the "Passover" to the "Pentecost" holidays, had a homelier significance in terms of food management. Ancient populations typically lived with very little surplus and a constant danger of running out; although the practice of fasting was commonly given spiritual justifications in terms of learning self-denial and so on, most cultures had a "fast" period for the very practical reason that at some time of the year it was seriously necessary for everyone to be sparing of the food reserves. "Lent" in Europe is older than Christianity: it arose because the winter is the hard season in northern climates. Ramadan in Arabic means "scorching": before Muhammad cut the lunar months free from the seasonal year, Ramadan was the mid-summer month, when food-stocks are at their lowest in Arabia. In Israel, for half an omer after Pesach, it was legal to cull lambs from the flock and to cautiously pluck some "firstfruits" from the growing grain-fields; but then for half an omer, no more lambs could be taken (lest the growth of the flock be compromised) and similarly the grain fields were to be left alone, so nobody had anything to eat except dried preserves (some raisins and the like), so everybody was urged to go without as much as they could. The only survival of this fast is the Lag b'Omer "33rd of the omer", a fasting day at day number 33 in the count from Pesach to Shavuoth; this is a classic case of a number that made sense in base-seven turned into something arbitrary and meaningless in base-ten: three weeks and three days (not three tens and three days) into the omer was the halfway point (more precisely, three weeks and three 24-hour periods and then the half-day from sunset to sunrise brings us to the starting point of the fast, which I assume was like Ramadan, no food or drink from sunrise to sunset). Shavuoth, like the Eid at the end of Ramadan, was a lot more meaningful to the people when they had been going hungry for weeks and were finally told it was OK to eat as much as they wanted.

 

[Avi]

I generally find Midrashim quite interesting. This one speaks for itself:

The custom of all-night Torah study goes back to 1533 when Rabbi Joseph Caro, author of the Shulchan Aruch, then living in Ottoman Salonika, invited his Kabbalistic colleagues to hold a night-long study vigil, in the course of which an angel appeared before them and commanded them to go live in Eretz Yisrael. According to a story in the Midrash, the night before the Torah was given, the Israelites retired early to be well-rested for the momentous day ahead, but they overslept and Moses had to wake them up because God was already waiting on the mountaintop.[5] To rectify this flaw in the national character, religious Jews stay up all night to learn Torah.
Any subject may be studied, although Talmud, Mishna and Torah typically top the list. In many communities, men and women attend classes and lectures until the early hours of the morning. In Jerusalem, thousands of people finish off the nighttime study session by walking to the Kotel before dawn and joining the sunrise minyan there. The latter activity is reminiscent of Shavuot's status as one of the three Biblical pilgrimage festivals, when the Jews living in the Land of Israel journeyed to Jerusalem to celebrate the holiday.[6]

Ref: Shavuot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bananabrain]

It had no meat, it had no cheese (milk), but their discussion revolved around the implication of mixing milk and meat was still contained in the combination, hence making it not kosher.

we would see it as two issues, one of actuality and one of perception. there is no actuality issue if no actual meat or actual milk is involved, but nonetheless there is a perception issue that remains, which is known in halakhah as ma'arat 'ayin ("eye deception") which can be succinctly expressed as the "black-hatter eating at mcdonalds" problem: why's he eating there? obviously he's jewish, does that mean it's kosher or what? what happens if there is a mistake and i come to eat something non-kosher because he was sitting in there eating his home-made sandwich? the same would obtain here, hence the need to signal the kashrut of ingredients.

Reminded me about what Rabbi's must have been going around on when electricity came into being, I can just imagine them staring at a light switch and going through all the possibilities. Seems to me the determination was while flicking the switch wasn't work, but as it replaced the filling and lighting of a lamp, it replaced work, therefor intent came into play....hence the invention of timers and photo cells.

the essential issue here is that one of the 39 avot melakhot ("primary categories defined as 'work' for halakhic purposes") is "lighting a fire". the question is then whether the glowing filament in a traditional light bulb or the spark that is created at the switch when you begin to transfer the instruction to the circuit constitutes a "fire" or not and the majority answer has been "yes". if you can have a lightbulb that does not involve heat, for example, which does not glow but instead produces light by some other means, perhaps it isn't a fire. the question then goes back to well, how did you turn it on and was there an electric current, etc. so it wasn't a matter of what it replaced, but on whether the immutable halakhic category was used or not. hence, timers, which transfer the action out of the time-frame of "sacred time", are OK.

Not so many observant or orthodox as they'll be there juggling most the weekend. But those that are...will time the leaving of their neighborhood exactly and make it to the public show by intermission

juggling would be allowed on Shabbat, i'd have thought, so providing they could get there on foot, their names were on a list and the balls were already there....

Sumerians for some reason did a lot of math in base six

well, a die is usually a cube and a cube is a six-sided object. it's probably that.

The only survival of this fast is the Lag b'Omer "33rd of the omer", a fasting day at day number 33 in the count from Pesach to Shavuoth

but lag b'omer isn't a fast i don't think.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[bob x]

well, a die is usually a cube and a cube is a six-sided object. it's probably that.

The die was invented rather late, perhaps even later than writing, after the base-six and base-seven systems were already in place. It came to be commonly used because the six-sided shape was convenient for representing what they were already doing.

One nice theory for why Sumerians counted in sixes is that it comes from a system for fast-counting herds that is sometimes found in North Africa: use the fingers of one hand for the "ones", and as you overflow past five count "sixes" with the fingers of the other hand; then as you overflow past five sixes, make a scratch-mark in the ground with your foot for 36; after you have five scratch-marks, make the sixth scratch-mark cross the other five like a tally-mark, that grouping standing for 216 if you should need to get that high. Problems are that Sumerians are not from North Africa, and were principally grain-farmers rather than animal-herders; but perhaps the system was once more widespread, and became fixed in the Sumerian language before they shifted to agriculture.

but lag b'omer isn't a fast i don't think.

Not now, but I am speculating on what it once was; the stories about its origin have no historicity, and are a sign that it is a fossil of something else whose original significance was forgotten.

If you don't find my original hypothesis (that it was the start of a half-omer period of restrictions), an alternative hypothesis (which may fit the data about the current customs better) is that the restrictions were for the whole omer, but the halfway point was a one-day release from all restrictions (an "over-the-hump day" celebration).

 

[fabs1]

It seems as if Shavuot is the holiday that is most neglected some times.

I remember talking to a non-observant Jew about the holidays, when she said

'yeah I know that one and that one, but what's this one?'

It's partially a symptom of having (relatively) few obligations.

 

[Avi]

I remember talking to a non-observant Jew about the holidays, when she said

'yeah I know that one and that one, but what's this one?'

It's partially a symptom of having (relatively) few obligations.

Fabs, are you Orthodox or Conservative ?

You have a very nice profile photo showing a Star of David . Earlier I noticed a different photo there, would you explain what that one was about ? Thanks.

 

[fabs1]

It was an IDF one, with the girl's face behind the gun cartridges.

 

[Avi]

It was an IDF one, with the girl's face behind the gun cartridges.

Yes that is the picture I saw. I am glad you took it off line. I do not know many Americans or Canadians that would post a picture like that. I think you should heed BB's advice, take care.

 

[fabs1]

Then you're obviously unaware of how deeply many of us feel about supporting the refound homeland that others with to destroy.

I took it down because it had nothing to do with 'interfaith', not because there was anything remotely wrong with it.

 

[Avi]

Then you're obviously unaware of how deeply many of us feel about supporting the refound homeland that others with to destroy.

Totally incorrect, and I will be glad to debate my support for Israel with you on these threads.

I took it down because it had nothing to do with 'interfaith', not because there was anything remotely wrong with it.

Indeed, it is the antipathy of interfaith dialogue. And I disagree that there is nothing wrong with it. It shows a woman looking at gun shells that are obviously meant for her neighbors. Not exactly compassionate feelings towards people of other faiths.

As I said, I am glad you took it down.

And, by the way, since you posted on a "Happy Shavuos" thread, do you have any thoughts about revelation ?

 

[pohaikawahine]

dear fabs - speaking of your new picture, the size and boldness of the black lettering has an interesting effect on my eyes .... its leaves an imprint on my eyes and for about 30 seconds afterward I see the letters in white all over the screen ... I'm probably getting old and my eyesignt is changing, but it is an interesting phenomenah (spelling???) ... aloha nui, poh

 

[fabs1]

What I'm saying has been said before, but bears repeating:

The revelation of the Torah at Mount Sinai is what sets Judaism apart from other faiths.

In many of the other religions, revelation involved people gathering around a charismatic individual who experienced dreams or visions in isolation or in sleep:
Jesus in terms of his visions and private miracles. Mohammed in terms of his withdrawal to a cave and his revelations in dreams.
At Mount Sinai, the entire Jewish people were assembled and had experienced Hashem's hand in taking them out of Egypt to bring them to this point.
There, at Mount Sinai, they experienced the divine presence and collectively accepted the Torah, passing down its laws from generation to generation.

This fact, is what I believe backs up the validity of Judaism's revelation and its relevance to today.
Although Shavuot is relatively low-key holiday, I think it beams with importance from a religious perspective.