Codex Sinaiticus

[Thomas]

The Codex Sinaiticus, one of the oldest near-complete Bibles, discovered in 1844 and dating back to the 4th century, has now been put online at:
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/

But I'd wait awhile ... 'service unavailable' probably excessive demand on the servers ...

Thomas

 

[Operacast]

The Codex Sinaiticus, one of the oldest near-complete Bibles, discovered in 1844 and dating back to the 4th century, has now been put online at:
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/

But I'd wait awhile ... 'service unavailable' probably excessive demand on the servers ...

Thomas

Thanks -- much appreciated. I'm curious, BTW: Might anyone here know if the Sinaiticus or the Vaticanus is generally viewed as the earliest, or is there no consensus on that? I know that, together, they're generally viewed as earlier than any others.

Best,

Operacast

 

[wil]

According to what I've read the Vaticanus is later. A portion of this book was on display at the Smithsonian when I went to the bible first 1000 years...also the oldest fragment of a new testament text was there, less than two lines from Mathew.

It is not complete...they had the oldest complete one on the tour, which was from a much later date...

some info of note:

Discovered in a monastery in the Sinai desert in Egypt more than 160 years ago, the handwritten Codex Sinaiticus includes two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament.

The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten corrections -- some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.

And some familiar -- very important -- passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.

It'll be intesting to see what books are added, which are missing, and what phrases are missing... (note despite what is missing this has been deemed the oldest COMPLETE new testament)

 

[wil]

New Testament includes Barnabas and Shepherd of the Hermas

Old Testament has some Duoay and Greek Orthodox aspects, 2 Edras, 1 & 4 Macabees, Tobit, Sirach, Judith...

No Exodus though and when you look at the vellum much of it is deteriorated fragments....

Will be interesting as the scholars dig in.

One time, with the digitizer is less than one scholar looking at the book when it comes to damage....

Let's go Thomas, Let Yahoo and Google have at it!! Digitize the Vatican Library!!

 

[Joedjr]

What, I gotta learn greek now?

 

[wil]

What, I gotta learn greek now?

No it is being updated and translated as we speak/discuss.

Note: I quoted earlier from another article, referring to missing verses regarding the resurrection. That is a little leading I've found out, as it may be missing some verses regarding the resurecction, but not all as I've read more than a few.

The translations currently are quite straightforward, no discussion as to how they are derived, nor any notations of the side notes/corrections. I'm wondering if this will get anottatged/footnoted as it moves on, like a wiki document...

 

[Thomas]

Actually the Vaticanus is generally regarded as the older of the two, although both derive from the 4th century.

Both texts are regarded as 'neutral', and derive from independent sources, but Vaticanus is closer to the Syriac, Coptic and Latin whereas Sinaiticus follows later Greek.

The Vaticanus is regarded as the pure text by most scholars, with Sinaiticus a close second.

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With regard to missing texts, I'm afraid this is more grist for the mill of sensationalists (and sadly I relegate the BBC to such company, as its anti-religious sensationalism is now a matter of open acknowledgement) rather than scholars ... that the Resurrection is missing in Mark is rather offset by the fact that it is present elsewhere, as is the Ascension ...

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Will you have to read Greek?
Well, if you want to be accepted as a serious scholar, of course you must.

+++

I'd love to see the Vatican Library digitised if only to preserve what's there. But will I go wading through the contexts? Unlikely.

Is there some 'da vinci code' timebomb document lurking there? Unlikely.

There's more than enough stuff available in the public domain for those who read Latin or Greek, for example I'd love to read Maximus the Confessor or Leontius of Byzantium on cosmology and anthropology ... and last year I was speaking to an Oxford and Cambridge master who's fluent in both languages, a fan of St Maximus, and said he spent over an hour and a half on one sentence ... it's not enough to have a dictionary, you have to know how the author thinks, how he uses words ...

Thomas

 

[wil]

No if the Vatican library were digitized it isn't about you or I wading thru the texts but hundreds of thousands of others, reviewing, cataloging, discussing and we all would receive the benefit.

 

[Thomas]

No if the Vatican library were digitized it isn't about you or I wading thru the texts but hundreds of thousands of others, reviewing, cataloging, discussing and we all would receive the benefit.

I don't think so ... what I tried to allude to is 'hundreds and thousands' will produce as much fact as 'hundreds and thousands' do on the internet ... the net result (excuse the pun) being no-one would have any idea what to believe.

There just aren't hundreds and thousands of scholars out there with the necessary skills. There are hundreds of Greek and Latin texts in the public domain that haven't been touched since they were written, for precisely that reason. Where are your hundreds and thousands with the stuff that's freely available in the public domain?

As I said, anyone who wants to translate Maximus or Leontius for me, step right up ... but I will set a proof text exam to make sure the standard meets the level of scholarship I require. And even then scholars at the top of the tree don't always agree with each other.

No Wil, that way leads to chaos and confusion.

Thomas

 

[wil]

I don't believe it would. Maybe in the next 5 or 10 years, but not in the next hundred. Many of these books have been sequestered for over a thousand years, bout time they saw the light of day.

And yes I believe hundreds of thousands. There is at least a hundred colleges and uni's with programs of education...and how many students...and how many seminaries...and how many monastaries... digitizing and internet access make this the perfect time for this to happen.

I can't imagine the number of masters and doctoral theology and divinity students that would love to have a crack at this. And then the next ones that counter and refute.

It would be like the human genome, or open source software...when it is opened upto the world things happen and are discovered exponentially faster.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Well there's still the public domain ... I see no reason why the Vatican Libraries would make much of a difference. Nor do I see any evidence to suggest that the internet would make a significant contribution ... it hasn't so far with public domain texts.

I means there's tons of translated stuff on CCEL, but where's the online studies?

Eckhart, for example ... no full works of Eckhart available, beyond the already-published works. No full works of Maximus beyond the normal scholars. Nothing of Leontius. And the list goes on.

There is a huge amount available in scholarly libraries, and the monks, seminarians etc ... the books of Maximus I buy, by monks, are published by the Oxford University Press and they're by no means cheap. I only know one author working on Leontius. A couple on Eriugena. And reputable scholars do have access to the Vatican libraries.

If there are hundreds of thousands ... what are they working on now?

Thomas.

 

[wil]

Lyceum this year I'm gonna miss because I have a work conference to attend. But last years was incredible the number of talks and papers and discussions. I can't imagine this is the only thing going.

Currently our system is that when masters or doctoral students are doing research and writing papers it is hourded by the uni's or buried in some publication. If that was opened up.

Who knows exactly what would happen, but I do say the internet is the key. And the more that is available the more that will be done. Just look at what the net is, nobody envisioned this amount of free flow information, like the human genome, technology is increasing exponentially due to the ability of folks around the world to participate.

Why the vatican library....heck that is simple. It has been closed off to the public and researchers forever...very few get in....tis the holy grail of conspiracy theorists...when those doors open there will be a flood...(even if there is nothing to find)

 

[Dream]

I don't believe for a second that its the real codex they've put online. If it is original, then why would they put it online for everyone to see? It doesn't add up. Have you seen Angels & Demons? Illuminati --> Light of creation --> White light --> explosion that wipes out the Vatican --> Illuminaughty --> Same plot as Aeon Flux

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

I must say again, where are the contributions from your hundreds and thousands now? Are they all Vatican history specialists? Waiting with baited breath? And I repeat, there's plenty of stuff out there freely available ... but where's the internet activity ... none as far as I can see.

Why the vatican library....heck that is simple. It has been closed off to the public and researchers forever...

Somewhat of an exageration, but I get your drift. On the other hand, the documents in the library, which are available for scholarly research, are in much better condition than their contemporaries (the Codex Vaticanus, for instance) precisely because they've been carefully preserved.

And they are in the process of being digitized ... but like all museums and libraries, by experts, which means time, and money, but mostly time.

very few get in....

How many, exactly ... compared to how many applications for access?

tis the holy grail of conspiracy theorists...when those doors open there will be a flood...(even if there is nothing to find)

Ahh! There's the nub! The post-modernist mania for conspiracy! Exactly. And why should the Vatican, or any other institution, welcome or even put themselves out to pander to the salacious and sensationalist apetites of the 'hoi-polloi'?

All that would result is a flood of ill-informed opinionated/sensationalist nonsense that serves nobody, spreads lies and rumour that would do way more damage than serve any good.

The holy places mentioned in Dan Brown's execrable rubbish have all noted suffering damage at the hands of those who are gullible enough to fall for such nonsense — and they are legion — by the same token as you say, hundreds and thousands would start to fill the internet with the same order of nonsense, then the Vatican would then be required to monitor such tripe, and where necessary respond to prevent further damage or misinformation or lies spreading about. So even more waste of time, money and resources.

Look up 'Origen and reincarnation' on Google. Thousands upon thousands of repetitions of the same false and fictitious attribution ... and the old adage that a lie repeated often enough must be true does count ...

No Wil, if that's your desire to see the Archives opened, then I will stoutly resist such a move. On your own argument, the net would flood with rubbish.

Scholars have access, there's never enough I grant you, but the kind of thing you're suggesting would bury the truth more effectively than any 'secret archive' ...

Thomas