Deconstructing Genesis

[immortalitylost]

How does one learn to ride a bike? You can know all the physics about leverage and force and balance that goes into riding a bike, but that doesn't mean you can ride it or have ridden it. That's what I mean by experiential knowledge.

I'm all for testing a theory. How do you suppose we test this one?

Um, yeah, but we aren't omnipotent omniscient omnipresent beings with perfect knowledge either... I see what you mean, I just cant reconcile that with God as I understand him.

Hmmm, to test the theory. Lets...ask God? I dunno...

 

[Dondi]

We do not know that that is the reason for the universe to exist.
Maybe if one considers that the highest state of being (for people) is one of bliss and make a comparison, as we are alleged to be made in the creator's image.

An astute point. Have you ever had pleasure in creating something?

 

[Dondi]

Um, yeah, but we aren't omnipotent omniscient omnipresent beings with perfect knowledge either... I see what you mean, I just cant reconcile that with God as I understand him.

Hmmm, to test the theory. Lets...ask God? I dunno...

How do you understand God? You don't think God can learn? I'd like to think that if He made us in His image, and we are creatures that learn, then He learns also.

But maybe there's implication that in learning there is room for making mistakes. But what if God always gets it right the first time?

 

[shawn]

Have you ever had pleasure in creating something?

Frequently.
As an artistic type I put a lot of effort into some of my work and am very pleased during and after it is finished.

I read somewhere in one of your posts that you were into Bnai Noach for a while and then went back to x-ianity due primarily to a lack of community.
In any case, I was a christian, got into Bnai Noach and am still inclined in that direction as I see that orthodox christianity is a complete scam/deception/idolatrous-etc. So while I miss the fellowship part (which noahides do not have) I wouldn't get re-involved with christianity if you paid me to.
But aside from that, I still believe in God, but am more panentheistic or pantheistic with buddhist type leanings, but am not religious about much.
I define spirituality as awareness and feel that the only separation one has from God/Source is in their own minds, but you don't really need Jesus to acquire awareness, that can be found in many different ways.

 

[citizenzen]

You don't think God can learn?

If God is all-knowing, what is there to learn?

If God is learning, then He must not be all-knowing.

 

[immortalitylost]

That's what I'm saying. God would kinda have to get it right the first time Dondi, because he is all knowing. If he didn't know how to do something, then he wouldn't be all knowing, because he wouldn't how to do that one thing.

So that's how I understand God. Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.

 

[shawn]

To properly deconstruct Genesis stories really requires that we question the reasons for WHY we (people/alive-sentient-conscious beings) are.
Why are we?
Why are we here?

Why, the most revolutionary of questions.

This will also lead to WHAT.
As in, what on earth are we....really?....Is a very debated issue with no absolute conclusions.

 

[immortalitylost]

Lol, I guess it is complicated, seeing as depending on who you talk to there are absolute conclusions to those questions. Those people as take genesis or its counterpart creation stories as fact.

I guess it just is telling about us as a species that we don't know who we are really.
No other species even asks that, and I think that fact just serves to perplex us all the more...sometimes to the point of creating answers for our questions.

 

[shawn]

Probably that is why it is a revolutionary question, as it keeps us running around in circles, doesn't it?

People will believe all kinds of things though.
There is a whole spectrum ranging from the entirely plausible and rational on one end to the absolutely insane and irrational on the other end.

 

[immortalitylost]

Yup, that's humans alright. One big spectrum of rainbow happiness, lol.

It's entertaining, if sad, to watch tho...so there is that...

 

[Dondi]

Frequently.
As an artistic type I put a lot of effort into some of my work and am very pleased during and after it is finished.

I read somewhere in one of your posts that you were into Bnai Noach for a while and then went back to x-ianity due primarily to a lack of community.
In any case, I was a christian, got into Bnai Noach and am still inclined in that direction as I see that orthodox christianity is a complete scam/deception/idolatrous-etc. So while I miss the fellowship part (which noahides do not have) I wouldn't get re-involved with christianity if you paid me to.

Lack of community was only one aspect of my decision to return to Christianity. Diverging away from Christianity allowed me to see the fundamental aspects of Christ's teachings through a Jewish lens. What I found was a Jewish Jesus (as opposed to the Protestant Jesus I learned about growing up in church). From that perspective, I came to appreciate what Jesus was trying to accomplish in bringing people into a deeper understanding of God in the spirit of the Law. And I've become a lot less dogmatic in my beliefs.

Besides all that, my search was done rather privately, without my family knowing what was happening in my quest. I didn't see any point in disturbing the atmosphere and environment my wife and kids were enjoying in the church and in the relationships with other members. Quite frankly, I like what our church is doing, particularly in regards with my eldest daughter's involvement with the teen group and her spiritual growth(several years ago I feared she might have taken a very different direction). And I have enjoyed serving the Lord in the capacity I'm in. Why destroy a good thing?

But aside from that, I still believe in God, but am more panentheistic or pantheistic with buddhist type leanings, but am not religious about much.
I define spirituality as awareness and feel that the only separation one has from God/Source is in their own minds, but you don't really need Jesus to acquire awareness, that can be found in many different ways.

This is one of the things that has caused me to be less dogmatic. One passage from the Apostle Paul in the book of Acts has enabled me to see that the grace of God goes past religious divisions into the soul to the individual:

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:" - Acts 17:26-27

If this is true, then we aren't at fault for being born into or thrust into another religion. God places where we are in order to find Him. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within us.

 

[Dondi]

That's what I'm saying. God would kinda have to get it right the first time Dondi, because he is all knowing. If he didn't know how to do something, then he wouldn't be all knowing, because he wouldn't how to do that one thing.

So that's how I understand God. Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.

How can God be omniscient if He had no experiential knowledge? Does God already know how to ride a bike?

Read the section on controversies regarding experiential knowledge in this Wiki article: Omniscience

 

[immortalitylost]

God isn't human. Experimental knowledge is important for humans. But if God is omniscient that means that he has all knowledge. We don't know how he has it, but he does. You can't relate the way humans learn and know things to how God does.

And God made the bike. He made all particles contained in that bike. He has more experimental knowledge from creating this universe than any human will ever have from studying it. He made everything. He knows it all intimately, from beginning to end. And he came to earth in human form and went through life as all of us do as well. I think he has enough experience.

And who says this is the first universe that he has created? Or the only one that he is currently overseeing?

God is still a mystery, but I tend not to look at him like he has the same reasoning or understanding that humans do. He isn't human. He's greater than. And we are made in his image, not he in ours.

 

[Dondi]

God is still a mystery, but I tend not to look at him like he has the same reasoning or understanding that humans do. He isn't human. He's greater than. And we are made in his image, not he in ours.

In what manner do you believe we are made in God's image?

So that's how I understand God. Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.

As a matter of reference, I wonder if you could tell me where you derive these traits of God in which you adhere to, particularly in regard to our current discussion of omniscience.

 

[immortalitylost]

Well, I believe that everything is created in gods image. Not the Christian view, that humans, and only us are. God is everything. He made everything. The two kinda mesh and become everything in this world was created by and is a part of God. I kinda don't mean made really. Just that we are his image. A piece of it at least.

Well as far as the three o's go, I was raised in a Christian backround. I grew up learning that God was all powerful. Omnipotent, boom there ya go. And I was told that he created the universe, and knew everything that I was thinking. That everything was thinking. And I guessed with further research that he knew what we would do in the future. (this comes from reading in the new testament about Peter denying him three times before the cock crows, and also his telling his deciples that he was going to die, and which of them it was that would betray him. I figured that if God incarnate could know the future of men then all aspects of God could do this.) Also, it just wouldn't make sense to me that God all powerful wouldn't also be all knowing. I mean, If God was all powerful, he could just want to be able to know everything, or be everywhere at once and he could do it. It would be within his infinite power to do this.

I tried to look at the three O's and stretch them to their absolute limits of power. I figured that was the only way to even get a handle on a tiny bit of what God is.

I try very hard not to humanize him as well. Because a God that created everything, and had all the three O's would not think in the same terms as a human in my mind. Everything with God in my opinion is on such a grand scale that it is imposable for humans to fully comprehend any of it.

I just try my hardest not to put limits on God, and what he can do. Because I don't think there are any limits.

Hope that answers your ?'s.

 

[Dondi]

Well, I believe that everything is created in gods image. Not the Christian view, that humans, and only us are. God is everything. He made everything. The two kinda mesh and become everything in this world was created by and is a part of God. I kinda don't mean made really. Just that we are his image. A piece of it at least.

Yet the injuction in Genesis 1:26 only pertained to man. Nothing was said of the rest of creation.

You still haven't really defined what it means to be in God's image.

Well as far as the three o's go, I was raised in a Christian backround. I grew up learning that God was all powerful. Omnipotent, boom there ya go. And I was told that he created the universe, and knew everything that I was thinking. That everything was thinking. And I guessed with further research that he knew what we would do in the future. (this comes from reading in the new testament about Peter denying him three times before the cock crows, and also his telling his deciples that he was going to die, and which of them it was that would betray him. I figured that if God incarnate could know the future of men then all aspects of God could do this.)

Then I assume that you believe that Jesus (as God incarnate) knew everything that was going on around Him? Or would it be more likely that these things were revealed to Him by the Holy Spirit? It is apparent that in the case of the woman with the issue of blood, Jesus didn't know who touched Him (Luke 8:43-48), and He seemed to marvel (no surprises?) at the faith of the centurian whose believed that his servant could be healed at the word of Jesus.

Also, it just wouldn't make sense to me that God all powerful wouldn't also be all knowing. I mean, If God was all powerful, he could just want to be able to know everything, or be everywhere at once and he could do it. It would be within his infinite power to do this.

I'm not one to limit God either. But it seems to me that God is interested in what we are going to do. Assuming that He knows every single thing that we are doing and will do, in any relationship we have with God we will be at a disadvantage in reciprocating it, seeing as we don't know what God will do. I suppose there is an element of trusting God in not knowing.

But then it appears that in several places in scripture that God tests the hearts of people to see what they will do (as perhaps in the case of A&E):

"The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts." - Proverbs 17:3

"But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts." - I Thess. 2:4

Does this mean that God doesn't know what we will do? If he does, then why does He need to try them?

 

[shawn]

But then it appears that in several places in scripture that God tests the hearts of people to see what they will do (as perhaps in the case of A&E):

"The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts." - Proverbs 17:3

"But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts." - I Thess. 2:4

Does this mean that God doesn't know what we will do? If he does, then why does He need to try them?

Good question.
Seems to imply that God is not all knowing, as then there would be no need for such trials, as the conclusion would be forgone, predetermined and known.

 

[immortalitylost]

Actually the trials could be for the benefit of the men themselves, and not God. The trials could be a learning experience, to cause spiritual growth.

Dondi, I said that my views didn't match up with Christian views. And I did explain. God is in everything, and everything is a part of God, therefore in his image. When I said that we were created in Gods image, not him in ours, I meant it from the Christian viewpoint. I meant that we should try our hardest not to humanize God.

And even if Jesus Got the information from the holy spirit, If the holy spirit knows the future, doesn't that in turn mean that God knows?


Jesus was God in human form, with certain human limitations. God does not, however. I guess that the basic idea that I'm trying to get at is not humanizing God. That's all.

 

[shawn]

But one could then say that all men (people) are God in human form.

People seem to like to believe in these God-men myths (somewhat addicted to them it seems), where there is one single example of a super-man, a god-man, who will somehow save all of us miserable less-than-god-beings from our terrible condition, which becomes a nice means to set up population controlling bureaucracies.

People are fed a line of how sinful we are, of how fallen from grace and perfection we are.
This seems obvious as people do have a lot of faults.
Yet what you believe in and accept as truth will shape the outcome of the reality which we inhabit.
For instance, if enough people believe that we will have an apocalypse, we eventually will.
The beliefs set the tone for the environment within which we live.
Look at the people with low self-esteem.
Why do they have such a condition?
It is due entirely to what they believe.
So if you can change that set of beliefs and replace them with a set of positive beliefs where the person sees themselves as a worthy person with merit and good qualities, etc, they will begin to have a much better life.

So to me it seems that beliefs are the core to changing our collective lot.
Which brings us back to:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/so-whats-the-story-to-11555.html

 

[immortalitylost]

Well yes since God is in all of us, we are all to an extent God incarnate. But I believe that Jesus had the consciousness of God inside of him. Or one aspect of it. And I don't believe he was the only one to have ever been host to it. Just one of a number of people God has placed his consciousness in, in order to shape events.

People could lie about someone who is a 'god man' as you said, and use it to their own advantage. But that does not preclude the possibility that some really do contain the consciousness of God.

You see, I believe that God is in us all, but we also have separate consciousness. So we are not God incarnate, but separate beings who are nonetheless connected to God.

As far as an apocalypse goes, in a non biblical term, we'd have one even if people didn't think we would. Did the dinosaurs believe they would end one day, and disappear from the earth? I doubt it, but it happened. The same will happen to humans, but judging how long we have been around, we should have a while to go yet. Or not. Who knows? The question I ask is are we going to be the last to populate this earth, or will there be a race that comes after? Will we be the new dinosaurs?

Kinda a rhetorical question, so ya don't have to derail da thread answerin it, cause really who could know? Other than God.